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  1. #1
    Dutchbopper Guest
    The action on my recently acquired ES 165 Herb Ellis is set higher than on my 175 and Tal Farlow, which are set pretty low. My questions:

    1. Would you say this is medium or high, judging from the pics that I included?
    2. I suspect this may still be the original set up from 30 years ago (the guitar saw little playing). Is this the type of action that Gibson would use on their new archtops leaving the factory? I wouldn't know. I never bought a new one.
    3. What is the preferred action with 0.11 strings and 0.12 strings? I know this is personal but what is a really comfortable action?
    4. A lower action would probably need filing the nut, agreed? Probably something I would see my guitar tech for ...

    Thanks,

    DB

    Setting the action on an archtop-2-jpgSetting the action on an archtop-1-jpg

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  3. #2

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    This is a good topic that I would like to hear other players thoughts. I couldn't play (wouldn't play) and guitar with the action set as your picture would indicate. I keep a fairly straight neck with very little relief, and the nut cut just as low as It can be without the open strings rattling. If the frets are level, this produces a clean action of somewhere between 3/64 and 4/64 at the high E and 4/64 to 5/64 at the low depending on the guitar. To clarify I use a nickel and a penny to fit tightly at the 12th fret bass and treble respectivly. For me this enables me to play for long periods of time without cramping or fatigue. For me set-up is everything and all of these aspects have to be dead on to achieve this with clean notes across the fingerboard. I've been recently told by a pretty respected luther that the action I seek is very low and he wouldn't send a guitar out like that. It surprised me to hear that statement. I can't enjoy a guitar that I have to struggle to play.

  4. #3

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    Some guitars can be setup with extremely low action and some cannot (You need a very straight neck with very level frets and almost no relief for super low action).

    I like my electric guitars set to about 2mm at the Low E and just over 1 mm at the high E (measured at the 12th fret) with a slightly higher action on my acoustic guitars. Pretty much my goal is to get my action low as possible without buzzing.

    10's, 11's or 12's makes no difference to me, I like them all set up low. Others like a higher action. It is a personal thing.

  5. #4

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    I could be wrong, but it appears to me that all frets but the first have been leveled but not crowned. The first fret appears to be more rounded and protuberant than the rest, and the binding appears cracked from fret sprout. You can see the binding cracks above 10, where it usually happens - but I only recall having it at the first fret on one guitar (a ‘73 LPC). And the binding “tabs” over the fret ends appear to be intact, which would mean that you have the original frets. I don’t understand why the first fret looks different from the rest.

    If the first fret was not included in the leveling process, the original frets were probably quite tall and the nut (probably also original) was cut as you see it. Action would have been fine, since what matters is the space between the fret top and the string, not between the board and the string.

    That nut also looks a bit chewed up, which may have resulted from its removal for fretwork at one time. I’m trying to understand why the first fret looks like it was untouched by the last leveling and dressing. Maybe it looked too fragile or started to crumble when gripped with a pliers (which I’m sure you know is not the way to remove a nut) and is too high to facilitate inclusion of the first fret along with the rest using a 12” rail. None of this would have kept a skilled luthier or tech from nut R&R.

    It looks to me like a fresh setup with a new nut is a good idea.

  6. #5

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    Im with you all… i go as low as possible without buzzing. Usually comes out to 2mm on the bass side E, for 12, 13 or 14 sets.
    IMHO the idea of a ‘perfect’ or ‘factory’ setting is specious at best. Your frets, relief, bridge, humidity and Lord knows what else all left the factory long ago. Just set to your personal comfort, relax and play. Rinse and repeat daily)

    By the way, Tal never measured the action on old Proto#2. It was crank down to buzz and then come up a bit. I often wonder if other greats were as casual about this as he was. But it worked.
    jk

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by skiboyny
    This is a good topic that I would like to hear other players thoughts. I couldn't play (wouldn't play) and guitar with the action set as your picture would indicate. I keep a fairly straight neck with very little relief, and the nut cut just as low as It can be without the open strings rattling. If the frets are level, this produces a clean action of somewhere between 3/64 and 4/64 at the high E and 4/64 to 5/64 at the low depending on the guitar. To clarify I use a nickel and a penny to fit tightly at the 12th fret bass and treble respectivly. For me this enables me to play for long periods of time without cramping or fatigue. For me set-up is everything and all of these aspects have to be dead on to achieve this with clean notes across the fingerboard. I've been recently told by a pretty respected luther that the action I seek is very low and he wouldn't send a guitar out like that. It surprised me to hear that statement. I can't enjoy a guitar that I have to struggle to play.
    I agree completely with your figures and your luthier certainly is correct. That action is pretty low you cannot really reasonable go lower. It set them up pretty close to 4/64 and 5/64 treble and bass.

  8. #7

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    What I do is I lower the action until I get buzz when I hit strings slightly heavier than my "normal heavy stroke". How heavy? This is where it gets personal. How much buzz you're willing to tolerate for lower action? (or how much action height you're willing to tolerate for buzz-free sound?). I stopped measuring the action years ago. It varies among guitars. Scale length, fret condition, string gauge, acoustic vs electric all affect the action.

    Also truss rod is a big factor in getting an even action throughout the neck:
    - If I get a buzz in the high frets (when I fret around the 12th fret near where the neck meets the body) but lower frets are buzz-free, that means truss needs to be tightened (neck has too much bow) and saddle height must be increased.

    - If I get a buzz in low frets but high frets have high action (neck is too straight or has back bow), than I need to loosen the truss rod and reduce the saddle height (to even out the action in both the high and low frets).

    This is of course assuming the guitar has relatively even frets across the neck.

    Nut height is a separate consideration all together. If the first fret feels too stiff and the intonation goes sharp, the nut is too high. I don't use heavy open cowboy chords so low nut height is safe for me. When I push the strings at the 3rd fret, if the strings are almost touching the 1st fret (with a barely visible clearance) then my nut is as low as it can go.
    Last edited by Tal_175; 01-21-2022 at 10:41 PM.

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchbopper
    The action on my recently acquired ES 165 Herb Ellis is set higher than on my 175 and Tal Farlow, which are set pretty low. My questions:

    1. Would you say this is medium or high, judging from the pics that I included?
    2. I suspect this may still be the original set up from 30 years ago (the guitar saw little playing). Is this the type of action that Gibson would use on their new archtops leaving the factory? I wouldn't know. I never bought a new one.
    3. What is the preferred action with 0.11 strings and 0.12 strings? I know this is personal but what is a really comfortable action?
    4. A lower action would probably need filing the nut, agreed? Probably something I would see my guitar tech for ...

    Thanks,

    DB

    Setting the action on an archtop-2-jpgSetting the action on an archtop-1-jpg

    I prefer my action extremely low. There isn't really enough photos to diagnose properly. However, it looks like your nut isn't too bad. The strings look like they raise up significantly which makes me think the bridge is too high. Can you post a pic of that?

  10. #9

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    I agree with most of the above. I like a straight neck with little to no relief. I measure that by fretting a string (I usually start with the G, for no good reason other than that it's near the center of the fretboard) at the first and (usually) 14th frets, and measuring the relief between them. The string gives a perfectly straight edge, and I tap it in between the held frets. I want a tiny ping, but nor really any movement. This does require a very good fret job. I then work on the nut, to get the slots at near the same height as the frets, usually a thou or so taller to allow for wear. Once that is done, I adjust the action by raising or lowering the bridge saddle to get as low as possible without buzz. Assuming all the first steps are done properly, I usually get about .050" or slightly less between the 12th fret top and the bottom of the e string. If there is any relief, the action will need to be higher to prevent buzzing on the highest frets.

    In the posted photos, it does appear that the first fret is higher than the rest, although that could possibly be from parallax. I can't say for certain without more photos from different angles. The other frets do look very low, as if they have been heavily leveled and not crowned, but there isn't much fret left to crown. The nut slot for at least the bass E string is very high above the frets. I think the guitar needs new frets, and perhaps a new nut. At least the front and rear of the nut need to be leveled. I suspect that someone has done a poor setup job on the guitar, and it needs to have a competent person take care of it.

  11. #10

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    That action looks high to me. Like at least twice as high as something I’d like. And yes that but would need to be filed to get it lower and nice and east playing.

  12. #11

    User Info Menu

    Players and their guitars are all very different, especially when it comes to archtops that are sometimes used unplugged.
    When acoustic volume is the major objective, action is set high to enable the strings to oscillate with high amplitude.
    When amplified tone is the target and when the music requires advanced playing techniques, the action is set lower.
    Finger style players like slightly higher action than players that use a pick. Those who alternates find a happy medium.
    People that regularly play steel string flattops often prefer higher action compared to those that play solidbody electrics on a regular basis.

    The wonderful thing with an archtop is that it can be all that, anything you want it to be....provided the guitar is structurally sound...

    In your case, the neck has forward bow and should be adjusted together with the rest of the guitar.

    String height depends on bridge height, bridge radius, nut action and neck relief.
    Neck relief depends on truss rod adjustment, string gauge, bridge height and tailpiece/break angle.
    You can't change one without affecting another.

    Even if you don't plan to play that guitar, you should loosen the strings until you have had it adjusted.

  13. #12

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    My 175 looks like this. I don’t have a feeler gauge, but judging by eye with a ruler I think it is about 0.75mm at the first fret and 2mm at the 12th fret (I use .012 strings). Sighting along the neck, it is pretty flat, I have very little relief set in it.

    Setting the action on an archtop-016bf1b9-1f99-4a0b-bf8b-173e3fa7c79a-jpegSetting the action on an archtop-8da0417f-ab0d-4ccb-9677-cb0268053748-jpeg

  14. #13

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    If I could offer a bit of advice, you already know that this set-up isn't quite what you like. When you bring the guitar in (assuming this isn't work you will do yourself) Know exactly what would make you happy, and ask for it specifically. If you bring it to someone and ask that it be set-up to play better, you will get his impression of "better" That may not be what you're looking for. You should educate yourself at least enough to know what you relief should be like, and string height at the 12th fret. Ask your guy what it would take to get it to what you want.
    More often than not to achieve the specs. I desire the frets need leveling. There is almost always problems that need to be addressed (level wise) where the neck meets the body. If your guitar was mine, I would level the frets set the relief, set the string height, and cut the nut. If you like how your Tal plays take some measurements and duplicate it. All things being equal, the 165 with it's shorter scale length should play easier.

  15. #14
    Dutchbopper Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by JCat
    Even if you don't plan to play that guitar, you should loosen the strings until you have had it adjusted.
    Huh. Why that? How can you see this?

    DB

  16. #15
    Dutchbopper Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by sgosnell
    I agree with most of the above. I like a straight neck with little to no relief. I measure that by fretting a string (I usually start with the G, for no good reason other than that it's near the center of the fretboard) at the first and (usually) 14th frets, and measuring the relief between them. The string gives a perfectly straight edge, and I tap it in between the held frets. I want a tiny ping, but nor really any movement. This does require a very good fret job. I then work on the nut, to get the slots at near the same height as the frets, usually a thou or so taller to allow for wear. Once that is done, I adjust the action by raising or lowering the bridge saddle to get as low as possible without buzz. Assuming all the first steps are done properly, I usually get about .050" or slightly less between the 12th fret top and the bottom of the e string. If there is any relief, the action will need to be higher to prevent buzzing on the highest frets.

    In the posted photos, it does appear that the first fret is higher than the rest, although that could possibly be from parallax. I can't say for certain without more photos from different angles. The other frets do look very low, as if they have been heavily leveled and not crowned, but there isn't much fret left to crown. The nut slot for at least the bass E string is very high above the frets. I think the guitar needs new frets, and perhaps a new nut. At least the front and rear of the nut need to be leveled. I suspect that someone has done a poor setup job on the guitar, and it needs to have a competent person take care of it.
    The frets have little wear and do not look low or levelled to me. Maybe it's the pics. Though the action is too high, it plays well.

    DB

    Setting the action on an archtop-1-jpgSetting the action on an archtop-2-jpgSetting the action on an archtop-3-jpgSetting the action on an archtop-4-jpgSetting the action on an archtop-5-jpg

  17. #16

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    To my eye it looks like the neck has too much bow. Mine has about 0.5mm (fraction thicker than the 2nd string) between the strings and the 2nd fret.

    Similar to previous posts I like to set the neck almost dead straight. That is the very first thing to do. Second step is to dial in the bridge by getting the highest frets I'm planning to play, usually A (17th fret on high E) to buzz if I hit hard but be crystal clear with medium attack. Third step is to get the nut slots to the point where the distance between the open string and the first fret is the same as between the string and the second while 1st fret is pressed.

    The end result when measured with a pick is about 0.8mm at the 7th fret and 1.3-1.5 at the 12th. I play Thomastik 0.14 round wound, hit hard and can't stand buzz.

    YMMV depending on how straight your neck will get before the truss rod runs out of adjustment, how level are the frets and some preference.
    Last edited by burchyk; 01-21-2022 at 03:05 PM. Reason: measurement correction

  18. #17

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    Good playability starts at the nut. Too often the nuts slot depths leave the factory excessively high, and changing saddle height will still leave you with an uncomfortable stiff feeling guitar.

    I like to set my necks straight with minimal to zero relief. Then I fret each string over the second fret one at time. While fretted , the string clearance at first fret should be about .002 , or just about touching first fret.

    If the clearance is too much , you will be fighting a stiff guitar for ever.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  19. #18

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    Good info QAman. I would add that setting the nut slot height should be done after you've nailed the truss rod and the bridge otherwise you risk buzz on open strings if you straighten the neck after.

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by burchyk
    Good info QAman. I would add that setting the nut slot height should be done after you've nailed the truss rod and the bridge otherwise you risk buzz on open strings if you straighten the neck after.
    Exactly !

    Another important point, which may have been mentioned , is to insure your saddle radius matches the fretboard radius. If this is off, you will have inconsistent height from frets to strings - and it will drive you crazy.

    I recently purchased an L5 from Gruhn , and Ispoke with set up guy about how I wanted my set up. He understood completely and nailed it. It plays effortlessly- and has minimal fretting resistance.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchbopper
    Huh. Why that? How can you see this?

    DB
    Unless you are playing some optical illusion game here it looks like the string height over 2nd fret is significantly higher than the 1st fret. Overall string height looks uncomfortably high.
    Forward bow is an easy fix most of the time if you know what you're doing. In whatever case, I would not attempt to tighten that truss rod until first loosen the strings.
    My guess would be that the truss rod is adjusted for lighter strings than what's currently on there.
    In the event the bridge is currently high raised, the neck will straighten some just by lowering the bridge, but the reaction is probably not going to be immediate, especially if the guitar has been like that for a long time. That's why my advice to first loosen the strings.
    Good luck

  22. #21

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    "I could be wrong, but it appears to me that all frets but the first have been leveled but not crowned. The first fret appears to be more rounded and protuberant than the rest, and the binding appears cracked from fret sprout."

    yep, that thing will play so much better w/all the frets properly crowned and the nut height adjusted, QAman is correct
    you can set your nut height here...
    Nut Action (frets.com)

    Last edited by wintermoon; 01-21-2022 at 06:24 PM.

  23. #22

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    With the new photos, it looks more like the frets are fine. The original ones were from an angle that only showed the beveled ends, and that caused the frets to look much lower and flatter than they are. The perfect amount of relief in the neck is different for every player. I can't begin to tell how much relief is in the neck from the photos, which don't show nearly enough of the full length. If the action is too high, I would first lower the bridge a little at a time and see how that affects the action. It might be all that is needed. It's the quickest, easiest, and most reversible adjustment possible. Just do that, and see if it's enough.