The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    I spotted this 1964 ES-175DN advertised for sale at Retrofret. It looks to be in extremely fine condition, and is priced accordingly. I have no connection to the guitar or the seller. My reason for posting, is that it appears to have a two-piece back. The picture isn’t totally clear, but I’m pretty sure it isn’t an illusion. I have owned a number of ES-175s over the years and I don’t recall ever seeing a two-piece back before. Has anyone else seen such a thing before?
    RetroFret Vintage Guitars
    Keith

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  3. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by floatingpickup
    I spotted this 1964 ES-175DN advertised for sale at Retrofret. It looks to be in extremely fine condition, and is priced accordingly. I have no connection to the guitar or the seller. My reason for posting, is that it appears to have a two-piece back. The picture isn’t totally clear, but I’m pretty sure it isn’t an illusion. I have owned a number of ES-175s over the years and I don’t recall ever seeing a two-piece back before. Has anyone else seen such a thing before?
    RetroFret Vintage Guitars
    Keith
    I‘ve owned a beautiful ‘67 ES-345 in sunburst a few years back that had both a 2-piece front and back- quite the looker and yes, not common but since it’s a laminated construction it makes only a visual difference- could have been a momentary shortage of wide veneer sheets, who knows ? It looks cool, give me half a dozen !

    The pricetag on that 175 is indicative of a galloping inflation, wow…..

  4. #3

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    It sure looks like a 2 piece but I think it's just the grain. Look just below the heel for a few inches in the center and the swirl pattern looks like a 1 piece, then appears to have a separate pattern the rest of the way.
    The guys at retrofret are pretty thorough and surely would have mentioned it as a selling point.
    That said I have a Super 400 from that era w a bookmatched 2 piece lam back.

  5. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by wintermoon
    It sure looks like a 2 piece but I think it's just the grain. Look just below the heel for a few inches in the center and the swirl pattern looks like a 1 piece, then appears to have a separate pattern the rest of the way.
    The guys at retrofret are pretty thorough and surely would have mentioned it.

    That said I have a Super 400 from that era w a bookmatched 2 piece lam back.
    Maybe it’s just an illusion. I couldn’t be sure but I thought you could actually see a seam. It is a pretty attractive guitar in such great condition. A little expensive, but I don’t think you could find a cleaner example.
    Keith

  6. #5

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    It is expensive but yeah as clean as they come and from a great era w nickel parts.. Even at that price I bet it won't last long.

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by wintermoon
    It is expensive but yeah as clean as they come and from a great era w nickel parts.. Even at that price I bet it won't last long.
    I agree. From a great era with all the right features, and just like going back in time and buying it new.
    Keith

  8. #7

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    Prices of vintage guitars are really skyrocketing, click their just arrived link.

    7K for a prewar 0-17 Martin and Gibson L-00, 24K for a double pu Les Paul Special!

  9. #8

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    To me it looks like two-piece back. Not being book-matched, it's not more desirable than single-piece. But that price! Whew!

  10. #9

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    It's unusual but not uncommon. It's a veneer (only 1 ply deep) two piece though. gitman's got it right. I see this a lot, like all the Ibanez's that have bookmatch tops and backs are only surface ply deep, and many of the really nice Westerly Guilds used laminates by choice and used bookmatched surface plys because they're beautiful.
    I see joined plywood veneers a bit on sunbursts where the dark edges of the burst can effectively cover up 'not so spectacular' grains of the wood. And the legendary Les Paul bookmatched flamed maple tops; Gibson does use maple solid caps on a 'hog body but the Epiphone versions are likely beautifully matched veneers.
    It's a good thing though, that's not going to split along the seam. On that count, you're solid.

  11. #10

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    And with that price, it's officially "wait a few years until I even look at vintage 175's again" time.

  12. #11

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    It looks two piece to me. And the asking price is giving me some regrets about selling my 1963 ES-175D four years ago. Mine was sunburst with lots of playwear and I sold it for $4500 (about what I had in it).

    Lesson learned. Gibson guitars are better than money in the bank. At least so far. Where is that crash in vintage guitar prices that so many have prognosticated about?

  13. #12

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    Jimmy D'Aquisto's take on the 175 had a 2 piece laminate back, as does all the luthiers who make that design (Holst, Borys, Trenier). Is there any advantage or disadvantage, other than cosmetic for the difference?

  14. #13

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    While the back of that 175 appears to be two-piece, the front appears to be one-piece. Maybe its a very nicely book-matched piece of maple, but I do not see the seem.

    As for the price, I think it is way too high for a laminate 175 of any era or condition unless celebrity owned. And there's nothing said about its progeny.

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stringswinger
    Jimmy D'Aquisto's take on the 175 had a 2 piece laminate back, as does all the luthiers who make that design (Holst, Borys, Trenier). Is there any advantage or disadvantage, other than cosmetic for the difference?
    There's certainly an advantage to the luthier in not having to source 16" maple, often flamed!

    But seriously, I can't imagine any structural difference, and one piece backs are rare even on carved acoustic arch tops and it doesn't seem to hurt the sound of them.

    I once had a '46 Gibson SJ with a one piece central American mahogany back, that was extremely unusual. Mahogany trees are very slender and take centuries to attain that width, so it was an old growth piece. Not much of that type of wood left.

    Sorely tempted by this guitar, but that price is tough!

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stringswinger
    Jimmy D'Aquisto's take on the 175 had a 2 piece laminate back, as does all the luthiers who make that design (Holst, Borys, Trenier). Is there any advantage or disadvantage, other than cosmetic for the difference?
    Nope. But fitting the image of two piece solid wood DOES make a big difference in some people's minds. There is an aesthetic stigma about something looking pedestrian as opposed to something that looks the image of something actually more crafty.
    If we're talking two piece neck vs single piece neck, then there's a big difference.
    But two piece veneer, it's all for the eye. And tell me that having eye appeal isn't worth a LOT of $$$ for some people.

  17. #16

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    Retrofret confirmed it being a 2 piece back.
    I probably need to get my eyes checked

  18. #17

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    no, I didn't want them to go through all that since I'm not interested in purchasing

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note
    It's unusual but not uncommon. It's a veneer (only 1 ply deep) two piece though. gitman's got it right. I see this a lot, like all the Ibanez's that have bookmatch tops and backs are only surface ply deep, and many of the really nice Westerly Guilds used laminates by choice and used bookmatched surface plys because they're beautiful.
    I see joined plywood veneers a bit on sunbursts where the dark edges of the burst can effectively cover up 'not so spectacular' grains of the wood. And the legendary Les Paul bookmatched flamed maple tops; Gibson does use maple solid caps on a 'hog body but the Epiphone versions are likely beautifully matched veneers.
    It's a good thing though, that's not going to split along the seam. On that count, you're solid.
    I agree that lots of other guitars have two-piece laminated tops and backs. I have never seen this on an ES-175 though. I’m not suggesting it is a good or bad thing, in fact I don’t think it makes any difference at all in terms of tone, stability or value. I just found it to be quite unusual and something I didn’t know Gibson ever did on 175’s. Until now, I always assumed you could tell a solid back from a plywood back on higher-end Gibsons from that era (e.g. L5, Byrdland) by checking if it was a one or two-piece. I guess that’s not necessarily true. Assuming this guitar is all laminated, means that Gibson actually made some plywood two-piece backs.
    Keith

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by floatingpickup
    I agree that lots of other guitars have two-piece laminated tops and backs. I have never seen this on an ES-175 though. I’m not suggesting it is a good or bad thing, in fact I don’t think it makes any difference at all in terms of tone, stability or value. I just found it to be quite unusual and something I didn’t know Gibson ever did on 175’s. Until now, I always assumed you could tell a solid back from a plywood back on higher-end Gibsons from that era (e.g. L5, Byrdland) by checking if it was a one or two-piece. I guess that’s not necessarily true. Assuming this guitar is all laminated, means that Gibson actually made some plywood two-piece backs.
    Keith
    As easy as it is to do, and as frugal as it is in practice to basically cut a paper thin piece of figured wood and glue it up like a piece of wallpaper, it's kind of a wonder they don't do it more often. I always thought they could make the GB10 George Benson more spectacular if they put bookmatched contact paper on the back of that laminated showpiece.
    Shrug?

  21. #20

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    and the '64 175 @ Retrofret is on hold

  22. #21

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    Just got here...What was the asking price? It doesn't say since it is on hold.

  23. #22

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    They have some cool guitars. An '81 ES-175 with a boat-anchor Charlie Christian pickup. And I didn't realise there was a one-pickup ES-330.





  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stringswinger
    Jimmy D'Aquisto's take on the 175 had a 2 piece laminate back, as does all the luthiers who make that design (Holst, Borys, Trenier). Is there any advantage or disadvantage, other than cosmetic for the difference?
    Buying mahogany in two pieces is cheaper. I piece wide boards are always more expensive. It also depends on the source. Gibson like everyone has to really on a 3rd party supplier.

  25. #24

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    Laminates don't use actual boards.

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Easy2grasp
    Just got here...What was the asking price? It doesn't say since it is on hold.
    Sorry, I wish I could remember the asking price. Someone here must be able to remember.
    Keith.