The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Geechnyc
    A good-quality newer case would have been a plus in my consideration.
    It's a functional plus for buyers who'd buy it to play, but it doesn't justify a higher price. Having the original case adds market value to collectors, regardless of its condition.

    My concern is not over which case comes with it. There should be no errors in descriptions of fine instruments from top shops, and the seller's description clearly says both "OHSC" and 'original hard shell case". An accurate description is critical to a proper offering, and a top price for a vintage instrument is predicated on originality as well as condition. Most of us who'd buy this guitar to play would rather pay less and either use the case that's with it now or buy a good gig bag for it. But the asking price justifies a perfect and entirely original S400 with its original case.

    Most of us (including me) don't care about the case. But having the original case does increase market value to those who want to have all the original parts and/or who buy with the hope of future profit. And like us, they deserve honesty in marketing material.

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  3. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note
    I've seen fine examples, highest quality and that was the work of really legendary caliber luthiers. I also saw the fallout from their lax quality control and acceptance of some that looked great and didn't play as well as they looked. I've seen examples of Johnny Smiths that were serial number close kin, but one of which was lively, and had a piano like ring to it, and the other sounded like it needed new strings (which it had), but there was a time when the second one would have maybe benefitted from a little more construction scrutiny?
    One thing about Norlin policies, I did get the distinct feeling that there was an embracing of the Heftiness=longevity aesthetic. That was a reflection of the new business execs' philosophy. Take that as you may.
    It's well know in the acoustic guitar world, that Norlin flat tops, became dull sounding, due to the tops being designed to avoid warranty claims.

    There is a very good documentary on what Norlin did to Gibson here. It's not strictly about Norlin but mentions the issues that arose from their ownership.

    You can get really good Norlin guitars but you should expect to pay less and you should play them in person first, if at all possible (imo).


  4. #28

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    Gibson flattops started going downhill well before Norlin took over when they started putting tune-o-matic bridges and cross braces in them in the early 60s.

  5. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
    ... Having the original case adds market value to collectors, regardless of its condition. ... But the asking price justifies a perfect and entirely original S400 with its original case. .. But having the original case does increase market value to those who want to have all the original parts and/or who buy with the hope of future profit. ...
    Original 50s, 60s cases in even merely good condition regularly seem to add value (or expected value) to top-of-the line Gibson archtops from those decades, agreed, but not 70s cases, which in my experience are not up to even the now-outdated quality of their predecessors. Happy to take note of any data provided to the contrary, but that's what I regularly see in the shops that I bother to monitor (Gruhn, Lark Street, Rudy's, for example, do not appear to price instruments of that period with OHSC vs. HSC any differently). I believe that that reflects the fact that those cases--more so than their predecessors--can be physical liabilities for the value of the instruments they are meant to house: the construction of the middle- to top-of-the-line 50s and even 60s cases at least befits those vintages, while the standard 70s archtop cases (the only ones that I have ever seen: black tolex with silkscreened 'Gibson'), as is obvious to any collector or player who has had them in their hands, give the impression of having been cheaply made and prove to be so in function as well as form, and have not infrequently already been discarded for the simple reason that their owners did not want to risk such instruments to a single (fourth) latch on an ill-fitting top and bottom bout (if not thrown away otherwise because of outgassing problems).

  6. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Geechnyc
    The flimsy tops, minimal latching, improperly fitting lower bouts and inadequate neck support of the original cases that came with my '71 L-5 CES and '73 Super 400 CES (both purchased 'pre-owned') rendered them useless for serious transport of the instruments away from home and not even serviceable for any frequent in-and-out storage around my regular use of the instruments at home. A good-quality newer case would have been a plus in my consideration.
    My concern with the replaced case (which was not disclosed and actually misrepresnted in the ad) is, how can a guitar be so pristine, but the case didn’t survive? It just doesn’t make sense to me.
    Keith

  7. #31

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    Keith, I mentioned earlier that I think the guard offgassed ruining the lid lining and probably corroded the pu covers.
    Sometimes a case lid can absorb the fumes and still corrode metal parts yrs after the fact.

  8. #32

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    In general, I would say that a ‘70s or later guitar generally has a little more value if it has the orginal case, but as those cases are not especially valuable on their own, the difference isn’t really that much compared to the value of the guitar. There are always exceptions though, especially in the Les Paul world, where some cases have significant value on their own.

    While there is reason to question the listing, a Cedar Creek case is significantly more valuable than a ‘70s Gibson case (and significantly heavier).

  9. #33

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    I thought those cases bleed^^^?

  10. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by DMgolf66
    I thought those cases bleed^^^?
    Only some suffer from this problem. It's like a lottery!

  11. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by Geechnyc
    Original 50s, 60s cases in even merely good condition regularly seem to add value (or expected value) to top-of-the line Gibson archtops from those decades, agreed, but not 70s cases, which in my experience are not up to even the now-outdated quality of their predecessors.
    That's true, but it's not relevant to the issue. If there are 3 known errors in a posted description (4, if the PU covers or entire units are replacements), how many more remain yet undiscovered? I find it very hard to trust any source that's already misled me mutiple times (whether intentional or not), especially when they're asking absolute top dollar appropriate for a truly perfect original specimen.

    If the original case adds no value to a Super 400 of that vintage, why would they go out of their way to claim it's the "OHSC" when the photos confirm that it's not? I can only think of 2 reasons. Either they simply didn't know, which is inexcusable for a high end dealer selling guitars like this, or they felt that the original case would support a higher price. And if they did know that's the wrong case, they may even have thought (hoped?) that a buyer wouldn't know the difference.

    This may all be innocent - but it still leaves a bad taste in the mouth.

  12. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
    That's true, but it's not relevant to the issue. ...

    If the original case adds no value to a Super 400 of that vintage, why would they go out of their way to claim it's the "OHSC" when the photos confirm that it's not? ...
    You seem to be mistaking my pointed rejection of your assertion, further above, that "Having the original case adds market value" for a 70s instrument with a defense of the error-laden advertisement linked to by the OP, which I in no way offered, nor would.

  13. #37
    I missed the store's phone call earlier this evening, regarding the case explanation. I don't really care about the case one way or the other, except for the Cedar Creek factor, which my prior post already visited. Who needs that headache again? Purchasing a vintage 70's Archtop over the internet is a stretch for most buyers, or just misguided. I can wait it out for something similar from the 90's or later. It's probably an innocent mistake, and if I were to visit the store, Im nearly certain the guitar would be just fine. But without seeing it at this price point--and who wants to return an Archtop back to the store, insured--its not worth the risk. Why not just have the consignee talk to me? Meanwhile, if anyone on here is near Chicago's North Shore in Highland Park, please be my guest for a look.

  14. #38

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    It's messed up that a seller tries to pass off as an OSHC something that isn't one. But I think it's more messed up that fetishization of "original condition" has extended to cases and created an incentive for this kind of deception. You don't play a case. There's no magic secret case sauce. There's no PAF of cases.

    I had 60s Gibson with an original Lifton hardshell case. As an actual practical guitar case it wasn't very good. I think it's pretty twisted that these things are valuable.

  15. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by floatingpickup
    My concern with the replaced case (which was not disclosed and actually misrepresnted in the ad) is, how can a guitar be so pristine, but the case didn’t survive? It just doesn’t make sense to me.
    Keith
    The most likely answers to the question about what happened to the case have already been suggested in the thread: the original case was replaced due to some kind of damage or wear it suffered (even something as simple as an external puncture or a retaining strap breaking, or a broken lock due to a lost key), mere dissatisfaction with its quality, or internal damage (such as due to outgassing or a liquid spill). Or did the guitar sit for years in a glass display case that rendered, for the owner, the case unnecessary? Who knows how many owners the instrument went through before this listing?
    The original case is only significant now because its absence rightly provokes questions about the instrument that remain unresolved in the poorly (even comically) written listing. Until you have the guitar in hand and see how 'pristine' (your term) it really is (the listing statement "We shy away from the term Mint but... man, it's on the tip of my fingers" is--apart from the otherwise explicitly stated 'Excellent' condition--in my opinion reprehensible, as it intends to suggest such a condition while simultaneously refusing to do so; the photos are not high-res and don't offer much definition (and leave me unsure even about the originality of the frets--or even more to the point, the entire listing gives me no confidence in the ability of the seller to properly describe the instrument) and are not of sufficient quality to indicate whether there was any refinishing of the top, much less overspray), however, all of those answers about what happened to the case are, to different degrees, possibilities and point to different potential concerns.
    If it turns out that any or all of the pickguard bracket, the pickup covers, the pickup mounting rings, the mounting ring screws, the knobs, the knob pointers, the saddle thumbwheels and the tailpiece are replacements, like the pickguard, as also already suggested in the thread, then outgassing is the most likely explanation for the case having been discarded. As also mentioned, check the pickups themselves. But most of all get it in hand and see if it is what you want! Good luck!

  16. #40

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    I wouldn't call it messed up or fetishized (is that even a word? ). A non original case isn't a deal breaker for me but it's nice to get an old guitar w the case it came in.

    Personally I only use them at home or to a friend's for a little session, I typically use leather bags for gigs, I doubt an orig 60s or 70s case w thinner construction and plastic handles could hold up under heavy travel, a main reason you don't typically see guitars that have been heavily gigged still w their original cases from those eras. The earlier brown cases w heavier construction and metal reinforced leather handles aren't great compared to high quality modern cases but hold up better than 60s 70s cases.

  17. #41

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    When I see pristine old guitars like thay I just wonder if they sound any good. Some of the greatest old guitars I’ve ever laid hands on have had some finish wear because someone couldn’t keep their hands off. Not always the case of course but makes me wonder.

    And as for the Norlin issue, the quality decline didn’t effect the high end archtops. They continued to be made in the custom division by a special bunch. Workmanship was always first rate. Of course they did suffer from the electronics changes and thicker tops but so do all the archtops made up to present time.

    I don’t think you gain anything by going ‘90s over norlin. A big change would be going back to the golden era. They’ve been built the same since 1970 to now basically.

    The ‘70s necks can be a little thin from to back so if that’s an issue then ‘90s and more recent would
    be an advantage.

  18. #42

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    Jeez, I remember when this forum was all about enabling fellow forum members to buy new gear. Not happening in this thread, that is for sure.

    Most music stores today have little knowledge of Gibson archtops, guitars which for the most part were discontinued 5 years ago.

    The average music store manager is not going to know which case came with a 40 year old Super 400. Pickguards and pickup covers on these old instruments often got replaced and the guys in the music store are not going to know that.

    Norlin archtops can be great guitars and this example might be terrific and the stuff on it that is not original might be an upgrade. It really comes down to price. If it is a great guitar, there is a price where it is a fair deal.

  19. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Geechnyc
    the photos are not high-res and don't offer much definition (and leave me unsure even about the originality of the frets--or even more to the point, the entire listing gives me no confidence in the ability of the seller to properly describe the instrument) and are not of sufficient quality to indicate whether there was any refinishing of the top, much less overspray), however, all of those answers about what happened to the case are, to different degrees, possibilities and point to different potential concerns.
    I never did understand these types of seller pics of a guitar against the blinding white background.

  20. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by wintermoon
    Keith, I mentioned earlier that I think the guard offgassed ruining the lid lining and probably corroded the pu covers.
    Sometimes a case lid can absorb the fumes and still corrode metal parts yrs after the fact.
    Winter:
    Good point. That totally makes sense.
    Keith

  21. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Geechnyc
    [RE:]...my pointed rejection of your assertion, further above, that "Having the original case adds market value" for a 70s instrument
    I understood your distinction and statement - but I think it's only true for players. Hidden in my concerns (obviously deeper than I thought) is the fact that there are two groups of people buying these guitars: players and collectors. Unfortunately, there are not separate price schedules for players and for collectors - and original parts add value as collectibles. Serious collectors of most things will pay more for them than would buyers who just want to use and enjoy them, so asking prices and ads are aimed at the highest possible target. The dealer thinks that "OHSC" will increase the sale price or he wouldn't have bothered to put it in the ad. And if he finds a nonplaying buyer who just wants to flip it for profit, he's correct.

    As John A correctly says, we don't play the case - so most of us wouldn't care at all about a useless case, especially one that could damage the guitar. But someone who buys for "investment value" (which, in my opinion, is a truly dumb reason to overpay for any guitar and is a prime force in pushing prices out of reach of the rest of us), that original case does add value for which they'll pay.

    My main audio system for years included a Marantz 7c and an 8b. I had it long enough to justify some maintenance, so I took it to a top shop in NYC for a proper R&R. Some years later, I moved up and sold the pair. My long time audio dealer had a collector friend in Japan who came to Philly to buy them for about 3 times what I could get from most audiophiles. He opened them up, took one look inside, and told me he wasn't interested because they didn't have all the original resistors, caps etc. He didn't care how great it sounded because he wasn't planning to use it. My dealer was so amazed that he bought it from me and used it for years.

    Sadly, collector markets influence prices for all of us - and they pay crazy prices for crazy things like ratty original cases. They don't play the instruments, and they don't care about how well they play or good they sound. I once met a "collector" at a guitar show who was seriously looking for early '50s Fenders with their original strings (!)

    NGD? When 1 Super 400 is not Enough-exploding-head-gif

  22. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by wintermoon
    I wouldn't call it messed up or fetishized (is that even a word? ). A non original case isn't a deal breaker for me but it's nice to get an old guitar w the case it came in.

    Personally I only use them at home or to a friend's for a little session, I typically use leather bags for gigs, I doubt an orig 60s or 70s case w thinner construction and plastic handles could hold up under heavy travel, a main reason you don't typically see guitars that have been heavily gigged still w their original cases from those eras. The earlier brown cases w heavier construction and metal reinforced leather handles aren't great compared to high quality modern cases but hold up better than 60s 70s cases.
    Yes, fetishize is a word. I'm using it in the sense of obession and unwarranted veneration, treating a an object as having magical powers. This is the original sense of the word fetish (as opposed to a sexual paraphilia). BTW, the original sense of "mojo" is as a fetish object (a mojo is a magic charm in African American religion/Voodoo). So when people talk about the mojo of old guitar cases, yeah, eggs-ackley.

    FWIW, the case I had was one of the old ones made of plywood, with brass reinforcement and a leather handle (though black, not brown). It was still a lousy case. Long story about giving the case away and getting it back, but I was never able to sell that guitar (in many listings in many places) until I got the case back. Nowadays, I never use hard cases at all. I only use reinforced gig bags, but that's a rant for another day.

  23. #47

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    I live in the Chicagoland area and frequent this shop -- I've had nothing but great experiences with them. I was actually planning to stop in this weekend to ask about a Tele. I can check out this guitar and take some iPhone pictures. I'm not an expert on Gibson archtops by any means, but I'm a player and own a very recent L5CES, so I'm not completely ignorant...or at least that's what I tell myself...

  24. #48

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    NGD? When 1 Super 400 is not Enough-3a806b2d-e8ec-4842-aaf2-d3252f6da968-jpg
    that’s my old’74
    Attached Images Attached Images NGD? When 1 Super 400 is not Enough-7876e4fd-0745-456a-8bd1-e3f2c1886ce5-jpeg 

  25. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by wintermoon
    ask them to send you pics of the undersides of the pickups
    Good move. But! Yes, there’s always a but. I purchased a ‘74 Super 400 in 2013. It was an exceptional buy at $4500. But in my haste to snap up this one owner guitar I didn’t even think to remove the pick guard. Weeks go buy before I took it to my luthier. When I did I soon got a phone call. “Greg, did you know this guitar had a duel cleat repair by Gibson, and the split is only about 4” long beneath the pick guard?”

    Double gulp.

    As it turned out the guitar had returned to Gibson who installed a new tailpiece, humbucker covers, and a new pick guard. Seems the original owner had left it in it’s case and years later unbeknownst to him the pick guard gassed off. So the seller chose to foot the bill for these repairs and elected to acquire a late 90’s brown case.

    But get this. To my surprise the guitar also came with a brand new stock set of Kluson tuners, a $1k value, and a Black denim case cover with a Gibson logo. Do you know that I’ve never seen another denim case cover since? Must have been rare.