The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1
    Hi friends!

    I'm new here so please tell me if I'm not posting my message in the correct section.

    I've tried an epiphone Joe Pass plugged into a Fender twin reverb and I just LOVED the sound. So clean, so warm, flute-like (English is not my native language and I'm running out of adjectives...). I don't have the money to buy the combo right now (or even the amp), but I would like to have a closer experience to what I've heard.

    At home I have a Richmond empire with a Blackstar HT1R. I like the sound when I use it with headphones, but not out of the small 8" loudspeaker (it lacks "presence" if that makes sense). Do you think that buying (or even better building) a 12" cab would improve the sound for clean jazz playing?

    Thanks!

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    Hi "Mellow,"
    Welcome to the Forum!

    A couple things:
    - the best way to improve your sound is to practice!
    - that being said, a solidbody guitar plugged into a small modeling amp (even with an extension cab) will not sound like a hollowbody plugged into a Twin!

    Not sure where you are in your jazz/guitar studies, if you gig, what "style(s)" you like, etc., but I'd recommend keep playing, and when you have your eye (and budget) on a rig you want, take a closer look.

    And have fun!

    Marc

  4. #3

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    Welcome

    I wouldn't want a Twin in my apartment but there are people who enjoy that.

    Personally, for practicing at home a Princeton with a single decent 10" is more than enough, as in "running it around 2 on volume" enough.

    Even an 8" can sound big and present - it depends on what kind of speaker it is.

    So yes, speaker and cabinet make a difference. Lower volumes speaker quality/character more so than the cab unless we're talking 4x12 vs 1x8 kind of size difference.

  5. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by mellow_melody
    Hi friends!

    I'm new here so please tell me if I'm not posting my message in the correct section.

    I've tried an epiphone Joe Pass plugged into a Fender twin reverb and I just LOVED the sound. So clean, so warm, flute-like (English is not my native language and I'm running out of adjectives...). I don't have the money to buy the combo right now (or even the amp), but I would like to have a closer experience to what I've heard.

    At home I have a Richmond empire with a Blackstar HT1R. I like the sound when I use it with headphones, but not out of the small 8" loudspeaker (it lacks "presence" if that makes sense). Do you think that buying (or even better building) a 12" cab would improve the sound for clean jazz playing?

    Thanks!
    In my opinion, yes. One of my very best sounding rigs was a cab I built of 5/4 Tulip Poplar that housed a 15" JBL in an 18" x 24"x 12" box, atop which sat the Music Man 112RD with a 12" JBL that powered the whole rig. The cab had 1" port at the bottom, and the 15" JBL rode high and proud for better projection, the top of the rim being about an inch below the top of the cab, and maybe three inches below the bottom rim of the twelve, so there was a certain amount of bass coupling, as well as a bit of slant-back for the 12", giving a Marshall stack-like dispersion pattern. Room-filling, you might say.
    If you choose to build, be careful of your fingers!

  6. #5

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    The good news is that you know exactly what you want.

    If you're like many of us, you won't be truly at peace until you get it.

    You like the sound through headphones. If I understand it, that means you like the preamp section of your Blackstar, but not the power amp section.

    If you use a cabinet you'll be hearing the power amp section along with the cab/speaker.

    The only way to know if you're going to like a cabinet is to try it. And then, you won't know if you'd like a different one better.

    Around here, it's possible to buy gear with a 30 day return privilege at Guitar Center. That's helpful if they have what you want.

    Forgive me for going beyond your question, but my guess is that the best path would be to find a way to get exactly what you love.

  7. #6

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    If you're looking for the 'presence' of the twin, I would say yes your 1 watt tube amp thru an open back cab with a nice speaker might help. When I tried to recreate the sound of my twin in a smaller rig, that's about what I did. Put my Peavey classic 20 thru my 8" open back practice amp as a cab.
    Last edited by T Monk; 01-17-2022 at 03:21 AM.

  8. #7

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    a 12 or 15" speaker is a good thing, anywhere.

    it is more important to look at the db-rating of that speaker, than onto its watts resilience.

    use a ineffiecient low db rated speaker at home, that you can power up the amp beyond 2


    I have a 15" Alnico with a very small magnet, makes for the perfect home speaker.

  9. #8

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    IMHO, a 12" speaker in a closed box won't give you what you're looking for. More likely it's the type of cabinet.

    If you put a 2x12" closed speaker box next to an open back 2X12" cabinet like the twin, both up close and in a normal size room, you would immediately hear the difference. The closed cabinet would be a point source with great projection. The open back cabinet would give you that room filling warm hug of a sound you get with the twin. It's how the sound reflects around the room. Generally, close back speakers project while open back speakers disperse. The two sounds are quite different in an enclosed space. Add to that an expansive amount of speaker like 2X12" and the room will fill with guitar tones bouncing about the space with an open back box.

    While, to my ears anyway, a closed cabinet 12" sounds better than an 8", they will both still have the 'guitar in a can' sound. Generally, for a humbucker equipped electric archtop, 1X12" is good and usually enough. 2X10" is perfect for some. 2X12" for others. And some like the full bottom you get with a 15".

  10. #9

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    A good cabinet could make a world of difference. But it's hard to predict just what would work best. My preference is for open back, light pine cabs. Even narrowed down by type that way, I've had good and not so good results. Not so good from the cheapest pine cabs. Extremely good, from cabs built by Peter Mather, Joe at Pinetone, for example - high end quality, not so cheap.

    That's my preference. Yours could well be different. And finally, the amp itself might have a preference. I'm always amazed at how different amp heads do or do not go with cabs that have worked well for other amps.

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by T Monk
    If you're looking for the 'presence' of the twin, I would say yes your 1 watt tube amp thru an open back cab with a nice speaker might help. When I tried to recreate the sound of my twin in a smaller rig, that's about what I did. Put my Peavey classic 20 thru my 8" open back practice amp as a cab.

  12. #11

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    For practice amps, I find that speakers that are 8" or smaller can sound barky. Especially the lower mids can get louder than the other frequencies (think the B string, above the 5th fret). In a band situation that sounds good, but when practicing alone I find it unpleasant. I still like smaller speakers for practicing and manage the mid push in other ways as they make it easier to contain to the bass when you want to turn the volume up a bit (when noise is a concern).

    Speakers that are 10" or bigger, have a softer, more relaxed sound in lower volumes. It's easier to get a more balanced sound from them when practicing.

  13. #12
    Thanks for your replies!!

    I think I'm gonna try the DIY approach in the near future: 1x12 open back cabinet made of quality wood. Is there any speaker you recommend?

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by mellow_melody
    Thanks for your replies!!

    I think I'm gonna try the DIY approach in the near future: 1x12 open back cabinet made of quality wood. Is there any speaker you recommend?
    It can get a bit more complicated. An amp simulator is expecting a Flat Response Full Range (FRFR) speaker. Not sure what happens when you run it into an open back cabinet with a 12" guitar speaker.

    There is a lot of discussion in the amp simulator world on 'amp in the room' sound vs. the mic'd cabinet sound a simulator produces. A search on 'amp in the room' will yield more than you care to read. But I do think that's the sound you're looking for.

    My recommendation would be get a good combo when finances and circumstances allow. Something like a Quilter is a good choice for an archtop if you like the sound of a Fender Twin but would like to avoid the weight and want some flexibility in amp configurations (IMHO).

  15. #14

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    Welcome to the universe of differing opinions, no matter which subject! Cabs and speakers are the most underrated link in the signal chain. You've been recommended anything from 8" to 15". Although I'm making 6.5" cabs for professional use, all I want to say is that some of the best sounding speakers for jazz guitar are found in the 10" category. Among the main makers, Celestion, Eminence and Jensen all have good candidates. With one of those in an open-back cabinet you can't go wrong. Such cabs are quite insensitive to dimensions and materials. What matters more in confined spaces is the cab's placing with respect to floor, wall and corners, as well as the reflecting qualities of the surfaces and the height of the ceiling, which may contribute to a standing wave.

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gitterbug
    ..Cabs and speakers are the most underrated link in the signal chain. ..
    And when you get into a room sized practice space even more so.

    As you make speaker cabinets was wondering your opinion on materials. There is a camp that says solid birch. Then solid ply. And some say it doesn't matter particularly in a tuned enclosure where polymers give you shaping options. Intuitively I would think it wouldn't matter much as long as the basic mechanical requirements are met (i.e. stability, durability, mounting support). Keep expecting hybrid cabinets in lighter materials but we keep seeing ply.

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spook410
    And when you get into a room sized practice space even more so.

    As you make speaker cabinets was wondering your opinion on materials. There is a camp that says solid birch. Then solid ply. And some say it doesn't matter particularly in a tuned enclosure where polymers give you shaping options. Intuitively I would think it wouldn't matter much as long as the basic mechanical requirements are met (i.e. stability, durability, mounting support). Keep expecting hybrid cabinets in lighter materials but we keep seeing ply.
    Ply yes, but poplar (used by DV Mark) and okoumé are 30-40% lighter than birch. Some boutique cab makers are using paulownia plywood, which is almost as light as hard balsa. It's actually a material worth trying for DIY builders. I don't know where to obtain it laminated, but in Europe at least Bauhaus sells it 18 mm solid. I wouldn't use it for the baffle but for the rest yes. Coarse-thread plasterboard screws hold, and if uncertain, you can impregnate the pilot holes with low-viscosity superglue. This wood is being used for for solid body guitars, and somehow the screw-on necks and hardware stay in place.

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gitterbug
    Ply yes, but poplar (used by DV Mark) and okoumé are 30-40% lighter than birch. Some boutique cab makers are using paulownia plywood, which is almost as light as hard balsa. It's actually a material worth trying for DIY builders. I don't know where to obtain it laminated, but in Europe at least Bauhaus sells it 18 mm solid. I wouldn't use it for the baffle but for the rest yes. Coarse-thread plasterboard screws hold, and if uncertain, you can impregnate the pilot holes with low-viscosity superglue. This wood is being used for for solid body guitars, and somehow the screw-on necks and hardware stay in place.
    Interesting stuff. Paulownia, in addition to solid body guitars, is apparently used for surf boards. Thanks.. hard to find your kind of expertise openly shared.