The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    Hi all: has anyone played one of Cunningham's recreations of a '20's L-5? I hear they're really good(and they're beautiful).

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  3. #2

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    I’ve played the one that is currently at Gruhn. It’s remarkably good.

  4. #3

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    Hi Chuck, thanks! That is helpful. Can you say, if it captures any of the sound quality of an early L-5?

    The one at Gruhn's is indeed the one I'm curious about, but am not in that area, to try in person.

    Dave

  5. #4

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    It comes as close as any that I’ve played. It’s certainly better than many of the early 16” Gibsons, but also not as good as the best of them.

  6. #5

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    [QUOTE=daverepair;1173322]Hi Chuck, thanks! That is helpful. Can you say, if it captures any of the sound quality of an early L-5?

    The one at Gruhn's is indeed the one I'm curious about, but am not in that area, to try in person.

    Dave[/QUOTE

    Just play it for 70 years and then we‘ll talk again !

  7. #6

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    I visited guitar player and dealer Tony Marcus in the Bay Area, and he pulled out no less than five 16" L-5's to show me (including a dot-neck one that belonged to Barney Kessel, who used it on tons of studio sessions, and it had BK's SSN carved in the back of the headstock), along with a Cunningham 16" L-5 he'd recently purchased (and I had my 1932 L-5 with me as well).

    Look, nothing you can do is going to make a new guitar sound quite like a guitar with wood that's been aging and drying out for 80+ years, like on all of those original era-L-5's. But that Cunningham sounded and played really, really well. And it held its own, even among such rarified company. I was impressed, no question.

  8. #7

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    Who needs new Gibson archtops (with probably five-digit price tags when the "Historics" appear), when there are so many fine luthiers around? More than ever, I believe, and with the social media quickly spreading their reputation across borders. Even here, where non-American builders are underrepresented, a new name crops up almost weekly. The master luthier - apprentice path to excellence has been largely replaced by training in specialized institutes, and young luthiers often form collectives to help each other and keep fixed costs at bay. There's a strong archtop tradition e.g. in Germany and the Netherlands, great individual makers in virtually every country and a good supply of tonewoods used by many US builders in their top models, too.

  9. #8

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    The one that was on Reverb is beautiful. My only worry about these repros is if the luthiers are copying the big chunky v-neck. Couldn't deal with it on my original Gibby. Loved the sound to death, but had to part with it.

  10. #9

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    [QUOTE=gitman;1173363]
    Quote Originally Posted by daverepair
    Hi Chuck, thanks! That is helpful. Can you say, if it captures any of the sound quality of an early L-5?

    The one at Gruhn's is indeed the one I'm curious about, but am not in that area, to try in person.

    Dave[/QUOTE

    Just play it for 70 years and then we‘ll talk again !
    That's a seriously good advice. So much of the vibe of a great vintage instrument is the result of wood being lovingly "music-ized" through constant and regular playing.
    In violin building circles, it's accepted that a violin that sounds good in its youth is, at best, close to its peak and will not mature. The irony being that the great Stradavarius never heard his own violins at their glory.
    There's a musical investment in hand built instruments. You buy a good one and it will have good inherent qualities, but it takes years to get the real hidden magic out, and it just keeps getting better. I can't tell you the number of times I've played a great sounding hand carved guitar and watched it peak in a couple of years and get weaker and less remarkable over time. It's the talent of a great luthier to build great from the start but also build in the potential to exceed the playability within their life.
    Classical (flat top) guitars peak in the 6-20 year range. It takes that long for a solidly built archtop to even START to exhibit its best qualities. Of course much of this depends on the initial drying of the woods even before it's even joined, the types of finish (thin harder varnishes and lacquers age different from softer luthier quality poly's and commercial poly's have serious maturing obstacles from the get go.
    I do see the irony of collectors who won't or can't play their instruments in. On a serious level, it prevents that guitar, as pretty as it remains, from becoming the musical instrument it was built to become.
    Yeah play it for 70 years. It's the potential of the player that's going to benefit the most.

  11. #10

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    I have also played Tony Marcus' Cunningham as well as his Gilchrist L-5. The Cunningham's strings were completely dead and it badly needed a setup when I played it, so I did not get an impression of its full potential, but if I were looking for an L5 with a 10k budget, I'd make the effort to get out and play an available Cunningham.

    I consider it a great advantage that he is making these guitars in Appalachia to a consumer base consisting mostly of old-time folk music players, and he is making them out of Red Spruce, exactly like Gibson did in those days. He is definitely the closest in design to a 20s L5 out of any contemporary luthier. Trenier guitars are also fantastic, but Bryant is innovating with his own design approach, blending elements of the greatest guitars from Epiphone, Gibson, and D'Angelico, whereas Jackson is maximizing fidelity to the original 20s L5 design.

    As a result, the Cunningham plays and sounds more like an L5 - it is a folk instrument that is the choice instrument Jazz as much as it is for Old-time and "Hilbilly" music. I am one who really appreciates that versatility of the 20s L5. When my family came to America when I was young, we lived in Kentucky, so I have a soft spot for the unidentified folk sounds that I would hear (outside of the house only, of course; we listened to a very different folk music at home).

    If you want a sense of what I mean check out this clip of an L-5 flatpicked. You need the dynamic range, frequency range, sensitivity, and sustain of the 20s L5 design to get this kind of a sound from an archtop.


    If you're curious to learn more about Cunningham, watch out this short documentary. He doesn't talk about archtops but this should give you a good sense of his world.


    Also, for the record, I think Gilchrists are absolutely outstanding instruments, but those cost at least twice as much as a Cunningham and approach the price point of a real 1920s Gibson L5 (with repairs of course).

  12. #11

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    In theory, if a luthier uses old wood and old luthiery techniques of building, the new guitar should get pretty close to the tone of the old guitar. Maurice Dupont uses that combination on his Vieille reserve Selmer replicas. Having played several original Selmers and several of Dupont's replicas, I can report that it is close, but not exact. I guess there is some alchemy involved with old wood having been part of a guitar and played over many years that completes the package.

    But if you are not wealthy enough to buy a 16" L-5, buying one of today's replicas might make sense. Future value is an unknown, for those who consider such things. Twenty years ago fine archtops made by luthiers like Ted Megas and Gary Mortoro sold for about the same price as a new L-5. Look at prices today of those instruments compared to prices of an L-5 made at the same time.

    Every dot neck 16 inch Gibson L-5 that I have played has been stellar. I cannot say the same about the block neck 16 inch L-5's that I have played nor about the Gibson reissue that I played.

  13. #12

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    The fate of individual luthiers is that only a few stand out to the extent that their brands prevail once they're gone. It seemingly helps to have an Italian last name. Some PR won't hurt. (I think Benedetto has been good at this.) Contrary to centuries-old violins, guitars tend to have a finite lifespan. This applies to classical guitars at least. The soundboards of old pianos get tired. The oldest acoustic archtops were made in the 1920s, electrified ones in the late 1930s. Do we have a view on the life expectancy of carved archtops? Too early to say?
    Last edited by Gitterbug; 01-20-2022 at 05:11 PM.

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gitterbug
    Do we have a view on the life expectancy of carved archtops? Too early to say?
    Built well, and taken care of (jazz life? ha) there is no reason a good well built archtop wouldn't continue to bloom in a century's time. I played a John D'Angelico New Yorker that had the unmistakable feel of an old well played tuned, balanced and voiced archtop with well contoured archings and graduations. Sweeeeet! And that's approaching the century mark on that guitar. Old Gibsons too, played in, a little worn looking but well played have something more than the sum of good wood and nice finish.
    I might be going out on a limb here but I'd dare say in at least some of the old Gibsons that I've played, ones that don't sound stellar, I wonder if they could have been much greater performers and more characteristic players had they not been pampered and unplayed. Luthiers know the sound of a green guitar. One of the benefits of learning from a master through apprenticeship is learning to build the maturity bump into a guitar.
    Yeah Gitterbug, that bump is what will make a true classic in 100 years.

  15. #14

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    Many 300 year old Strads have been renecked/refinished through the years but most still have their bodies intact, though some have been regraduated, it's still the original wood.

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by wintermoon
    Many 300 year old Strads have been renecked/refinished through the years but most still have their bodies intact, though some have been regraduated, it's still the original wood.
    Yeah, just about all of them have had necks reset to modern breakover. Greater downward pressure, different playing geometry and they still continue to get better. Antonio, give yourself a pat on the back.

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by campusfive
    I visited guitar player and dealer Tony Marcus in the Bay Area, and he pulled out no less than five 16" L-5's to show me (including a dot-neck one that belonged to Barney Kessel, who used it on tons of studio sessions, and it had BK's SSN carved in the back of the headstock), along with a Cunningham 16" L-5 he'd recently purchased (and I had my 1932 L-5 with me as well).

    Look, nothing you can do is going to make a new guitar sound quite like a guitar with wood that's been aging and drying out for 80+ years, like on all of those original era-L-5's. But that Cunningham sounded and played really, really well. And it held its own, even among such rarified company. I was impressed, no question.
    I think I may have played that Barney Kessel L5 at a guitar show in Marin county a couple of years ago. Did Schoenberg have it to sell? I think that's where I saw it. One of the best guitars I've ever played.

    Is Tony still in the bay area?

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by bluejaybill
    I think I may have played that Barney Kessel L5 at a guitar show in Marin county a couple of years ago. Did Schoenberg have it to sell? I think that's where I saw it. One of the best guitars I've ever played.

    Is Tony still in the bay area?
    Tony is still in East Oakland.

  19. #18

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    My '24 Loar. Hey, that rhymes!

    Acoustic archtops made by Jackson Cunningham-l5pics-jpg

  20. #19

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    Again, thanks for all the replies, and helpful input. I have a bevy of golden age NY Epiphones, from the 30's and '40's. Almost everyone sounds excellent(they have not lost tone over 90 years, as far as I can tell!). I play a mix of acoustic vintage jazz, along with blues and country...Eddie Lang to Mother Maybelle Carter. So, like many players, I'm fascinated with the sound of the '20's L-5s. But they're out of my budget, and living in central Vermont, I'm not able to play any(that is, try them in a shop). I might be able to afford the Gruhn Cunningham, at a stretch, hence my inquiry. I understand that even a well made replica won't sound like a century old classic: but, if the maker is good, they can hopefully catch some of that sound. Your replies seem confirm my impression of a Cunningham.

  21. #20

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    ICBW, but I think the one at Gruhn was sold.

  22. #21

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    As of now, it’s still listed.

  23. #22

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    Looks like the new Cunningham is sold and the 2014 one is still for sale at Gruhn's.
    Finding something that comes as close as you can get to a 20s L5 is a struggle. I did not have the fundings for 20K+ USD to get the real deal. I know the real deal is way better than the lookalikes .

    Another alternative could be Thorell that is being offered at Schoenberg. Looks also nice to me.


    I was on the hunt for a lookalike/spinoff myself a while ago. I could not find the 1934 reissue and I settled for a Sumi S5,
    Acoustic archtops made by Jackson Cunningham-sumi-jpgAcoustic archtops made by Jackson Cunningham-sumi-back-png

    It is a bit like a crossover of a L5 and a L48. But it suits me very well.
    Here it is (a bit poorly) demonstrated


  24. #23

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    Seems like more and more luthiers and smaller manufacturers are "jumping on the band wagon", hoping to get a share of the
    trending 16" trad. archtop market. My hope is that not all of them will only concentrate on making the most faithful re-creation of
    the 20's icon but try and incorporate some new ideas and modern concepts - like NOT copying the pointy V-shape for the neck (to begin with)
    and trying to stay in a price range that is within reach for the guy in the street. How many luthiers can survive by catering to
    wealthy collectors only ?

  25. #24

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    20s L5s didn’t have a pointy V. That’s part of why they’re so desirable. The Loar era ones have very large necks but they aren’t pointy like the 30s ones. The late 20s ones had very comfortable C shaped ones.

    But besides that nit I totally agree with your post. Fortunately I think the people who are making 20s L-5s are deviating creatively from the original design. For example yanuziello makes it with x bracing, Trenier makes it with some elements from Jimmy D’Aquisto. Gilchrist does cutaways on some of his. Jackson’s L5’s uniqueness in today’s market is actually just fidelity to the design.

    Unfortunately what you say about the prices of these is true, especially the Collings and Yanuziello L5s

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by gitman
    My hope is that not all of them will only concentrate on making the most faithful re-creation of
    the 20's icon but try and incorporate some new ideas and modern concepts - like NOT copying the pointy V-shape for the neck (to begin with)
    and trying to stay in a price range that is within reach for the guy in the street. How many luthiers can survive by catering to
    wealthy collectors only ?
    It's one of the biggest dilemmas of being a modern luthier. I spent a lot of time in the workshop of Al Carruth, one of the most innovative of the contemporary luthiers. He was always breaking new ground in acoustical research, tooling technology and efficient design. Yet the number of commissions from performers who can afford to get a new guitar is few and far between. Far more common is the impossible repair they expect for a bargain rate, or the collector who always wanted the [your legend here] and knows they can never get one, so they commission one exactly like a magazine description of some guitar from the distant past. "How about we put a more tubular arch and different graduations so it'll have a more even response?" No. No. I want as close to a reproduction of this one.
    Yeah, and the irony is, I believe the luthiers of the day would have innovated and evolved themselves had they the resources available to modern luthierie. When Jimmy D'Aquisto began building his Centura and Moderna models, he couldn't really sell them, all his commissions were for the traditional New Yorker type guitars. Only after his death did those innovative designs become copied and in popular "collectors" demand.