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As I'm sure many of you know, searching for one's first archtop can be a very overwhelming experience. I've been playing a D'Angelico Excel SS for around two years now, and despite the dark tones it can produce, I still have been able to stamp out the desire for an actual archtop. However, budget is a major factor; I'd be looking for something around 1200 on Reverb. I've really been looking at the Eastman models with the carved tops and laminate sides, but I figured I should ask a more experienced crowd if the carved spruce top is worth the money. I prefer a more electric sound, and have been relatively impressed with what both the laminate and spruce toped guitars can do. Is the spruce top worth it, or would I likely be satisfied with an all laminate guitar? Thank you.
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01-12-2022 09:51 PM
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It is a matter of personal preference and also depends on the volume levels you normally play at. My main gigging guitar is a LAM-top model by Bryant Trenier, before it was a LAM-top
by Victor Baker and before that I used a LAM-top by Roger Borys. My Ibanez GB-15 is a plywood model, too. The 3rd archtop in my stable is a Gibson Super-400 CES which has a thick and solid spruce top with sturdy braces. IMHO a solid spruce top on an archtop only really comes into it's own when it's an acoustic model, i.e. either with a floating pickup or non at all.
In a band context the sonic nuances+differences become blurred and the louder+denser it gets, the less apparent these nuances become. That's my view after 35 years in the game...
Take your time, save some more and look for a Heritage 575 or an Eagle in all-mahogany, Ibanez Metheny model, a Guild, something along those lines. When you don't have the chance to play one and buy on Reverb then do negotiate a return option.
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Don't think solid tops are universally "superior" or resonant guitars from the player perspective. My laminate thinline is more responsive than the all solid woods 575.
I think of it more as a tonal flavour rather than sound quality tiers.
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Good advice from the previous two posters. The gross categorization of "laminates" and "spruce as the ultimate material" is a deceptive generalization. I had a D'Angelico Exel laminate and (forgive me D'A lovers) I didn't find it to be a responsive top or an inspiring instrument.
However, I've played laminates, by Borys, by D'Aquisto (body by Borys), the Ibanez Joe Pass, old seasoned single pickup 175's... that had a woody attack and sustain that was much more of a delight and joy to play than some clunky overbuilt two pickup L-5's. Guild Westerly high end laminates: In a class of their own, primo stuff worth seeking out. That's my own experience, but the point is, whatever your playing style or technique, you have to find a match that will take the energy and nuance your hands can put into an instrument, and translate it into the sound you imagine.
Know too, that laminates are made all over so don't use a name on the headstock as your guide. I've found chinese Epiphones with a certain celebrity name that didn't seem to be rich in overtone and attack response, and yet the Zephyr Regent made in Korea was as fine an instrument (when coupled with a high grade pickup). Ibanez also runs the spectrum from heavy laminate made in certain Chinese factories to the finest low mass laminate spruce tops out there made in Japan.
My humble advice is to put aside the gross generalizations of material categories (there is truth in them to a degree) and get your chops up enough so you can play one piece REALLY WELL on any guitar, and know your own limitations. Try a number of guitars out with that baseline performance piece and shut out what anyone tells you is the best-you will know. Find out which guitar accentuates your own limitations, which one opens up what you can do to a degree you never imagined.
Try them out acoustically, to test your response, and try them out plugged in to a GOOD amp, to find out what it can do for your ear. Then look for the best for yourself.
My two cents...
Post Scriptum: A solid wood instrument WILL hold the potential to get better over time; the nature of the wood will change through playing. Laminate takes much longer and the change is smaller, more subtle. And beware of poorly built solid tops, they give you the issues and not necessarily the sound in exchange.
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Spruce and Maple tops sound different, laminated or not, so I tend to ask the question, do you like the sound of a Spruce or Maple top archtop? Then, after choosing the basic sonic character based on top wood, there is the question of laminated or solid.
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As usual agree with JBN. YOU have to be happy with YOUR guitar. (Regardless if it’s solid, laminate or whatever it’s got to an instrument that calls out to you ‘play me now!’). It’s not for you to make the wave of ‘expert’ advice/opinion/BS providers happy by listening to them. I seriously wonder how many of them really know what they’re talking about anyway. Used to have a phrase in the tech world: ‘magazine trained’. Guess now it’s ‘forum trained’.
This is becoming my favorite meme here:
They do follow each other).
jk
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+ 1 on the idea that carved vs lam is a difference, not a matter of better or worse. I play a lam top (spruce, fwiw). At $1200-ish i'd guess you're looking at the ar503ce? Very nicely made, but it definitely has a specific sound. Some live it,.some don't. I wasn't crazy about the ones I tried, and wound up focusing on lam tops, but it's really a matter of taste.
In that price neighborhood, I'd suggest also looking at D'Angelico EXL-1, Peerless Gigmaster Jazz, Epiphone ES-175 Premium. All of those are a bit different from each other and the Eastman.
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Add an Ibanez AF95FM to the list. List price 1100, easily gotten new for 6-700$. Lam, Indonesian build which so far show excellent quality.
Heres a link to try
Theres an ‘06 Af105F (floating pup) on Reverb at 699$ which is a guitar with a a very good reputation.
Wait, didnt i just say not to listen to others opinions?
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In the YMMV department, I tried an AF105 with a floater and hated it. I found it very unpleasantly bright and clanky sounding.
Originally Posted by jazzkritter
Add an Ibanez AF95FM to the list. List price 1100, easily gotten new for 6-700$. Lam, Indonesian build which so far show excellent quality.
Heres a link to try
Theres an ‘06 Af105F (floating pup) on Reverb at 699$ which is a guitar with a a very good reputation.
Wait, didnt i just say not to listen to others opinions?
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If you prefer a more "electric" sound, I'm not sure if looking at solid carved tops is barking up the wrong tree...
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+1. Exactly Originally Posted by John A.
I found the 105 to be overreaching. It's not a good acoustic and not great electric, either. A rare miss from Ibanez.
The AF95, however, is a slam-dunk awesome guitar!
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Ouch! You hit the head with a nail. Originally Posted by jazzkritter
This is becoming my favorite meme here:
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Originally Posted by WithSadnessWhatDoYouDo
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Having gotten one while I worked at Ibanez (What else you gonna do on "buy day"?) I gotta agree. No degree of modding could take the Woof Woof out of that dog. But it DID come with its own case and great case candy like choices of bridge saddles. Originally Posted by John A.
One of those that looked GREAT on paper and on the wall. For me, it felt like trying to play a walrus.
BUT I'm sure it's a perfect match for somebody. I should have sold it to a collector, ha ha. As it was I gave it to a student. He was thrilled. It did provide incentive for him to become a better player-and know what he liked.
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I never played one (105) but they seem to have a lot of people looking for them. Popular over at ICW.
As the man said YMMV.
But yea the AF95)
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Just thought of this model by Godin which is within close reach of your budget - the guitarist Gray Sargent who performs with Tony Bennett plays a different 5th Ave. model from the same range ....
Godin 5th Avenue Jazz 2010s Natural Flame High Gloss | | Reverb
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... Originally Posted by gitman
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In addition to everything above: how a player plays really matters. Pick or fingers, gentle or fierce, mostly rhythm or lots of soloing, choice of strings… I’ve seen a perfectly good archtop sound great with player A and so-so with player B. And vice versa. At the end of the day, it need to be reliable, stay in tune, be comfortable to play and has to inspire you to play, play and play some more. My favorite archtop costs a fifth of my most expensive archtop and the latter is undeniably a far superior instrument.
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Sorry, non-native speaker here .... but I get it. Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
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The fact that your favorite is your favorite suggests that superiority is in the chops of the beholder. The joy that you get from a guitar is determined by its value to you, not by its cost to anyone. Originally Posted by Oscar67
I agree. The original "electric" sound of an amplified guitar was meant to be that of an acoustic, but louder. For me, the best of that will come from a fine carved top. But if it's the "electric" archtop sound that evolved in the '50s and early '60s, I think a fine laminate is probably the way to go. In skilled hands and made by an equally skilled luthier, plywood can give you the electric sound of anything other than a full hollow guitar very well. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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I love that carved solid top sound, but my rule is if there's a drummer on the gig, i'm much happier playing a laminate top.
ymmv
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Personally, if just for the acoustic sound, I'd look at solid flat tops as well. They seem to be in favour recently with jazz players (see for instance recent videos by Tim Lerch or JGF's own Jeff Matz). They simply sound great. I now prefer that sound to that of most acoustic archtops. I often listen to Carl Miner on YouTube. He sometimes demoes high$ boutique archtops and always sounds better on flat tops (granted, he's clearly more comfortable with the latter).
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Hehe I had the AF105F - that pickup is utter %^$&#(! I've put a Kent Armstrong pickguard-mount epoxy humbucker and it made a huge difference. Played it happily until an airline baggage handlers decided the future is headless
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Originally Posted by WithSadnessWhatDoYouDo
I haven't read the other replies - let me tell you this:
I've been buying archtops and playing them in trio gigs for many many years - I've always had American guitars (from Gibson and Heritage to boutique one-man-shop guitars). I just got an Eastman 580. It makes it likely that I will sell all but one of my other four American archtops. It is not only beautifully made - it sounds and plays superbly well - resisting feedback - showing evenness of response across a very wide range - and generating a lovely thick rounded top end. just fabulous.
I would look no further than this guitar. One day I might get an Eastman with a floater - and solid woods throughout - and perhaps one of their 175 types. What can I say? It is as well executed as a Comins - but I think it plays better.
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