The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Posts 26 to 44 of 44
  1. #26
    Ok responses stopped coming in so I'm concluding the experiment. The sample size wasn't as large as I hoped (N=27) so take everything with a grain of salt. This was just for fun, so I didn't calculate statistical significance on anything, just some quick numbers.

    Answers are at the bottom, so scroll down if you don't care about response statistics.

    First off, here is the distributions of your responses. The most popular guesses were that 1 was the Trenier, 2 was the L5, and 3 was the DA. Guitar 2 was the one people seemed the most undecided on. People were almost equally split between DA and L5 while a small minority thought it was the Trenier. On avg people were more confident that 1 was the Trenier and 3 was the DA.

    Blindfold Test - Match the guitar to the audio! (Gibson, D'Angelico, Trenier) ANSWERS-screen-shot-2022-01-13-9-12-22-am-png

    Now here are a few more interesting observations and patterns:

    Conditioning on Guess for 1
    People who guessed that guitar 1 was the DA were equally split on the other two guitars.
    People who guessed that guitar 1 was the L5 were more likely to think 2 was the DA and 3 was the Trenier.
    People who guessed that guitar 1 was the Trenier were more likely to think 2 was the L5 and 3 was the DA.

    Guitar 2 | Guitar 1
    COUNTA of Guitar 2 Guitar 2
    Guitar 1 D'Angelico Excel Gibson L5 Trenier Broadway Grand Total
    D'Angelico Excel 2 2 4
    Gibson L5 5 3 8
    Trenier Broadway 5 10 15
    Grand Total 10 12 5 27
    D'Angelico Excel 0% 50% 50%
    Gibson L5 63% 0% 38%
    Trenier Broadway 33% 67% 0%

    Conditioning on Guess for 2
    People who guessed that guitar 2 was the DA were equally split on the other two guitars.
    People who guessed that guitar 2 was the L5 were more likely to think 1 was the Trenier and 3 was the DA.
    People who guessed that guitar 2 was the Trenier were equally split on the other two guitars.

    Guitar 1 | Guitar 2
    COUNTA of Guitar 1 Guitar 1
    Guitar 2 D'Angelico Excel Gibson L5 Trenier Broadway Grand Total
    D'Angelico Excel 5 5 10
    Gibson L5 2 10 12
    Trenier Broadway 2 3 5
    Grand Total 4 8 15 27
    D'Angelico Excel 0% 50% 50%
    Gibson L5 17% 0% 83%
    Trenier Broadway 40% 60% 0%

    Conditioning on Guess for 3
    People who guessed that guitar 3 was the DA were more likely to think 1 was the Trenier and 2 was the L5
    People who guessed that guitar 3 was the L5 were more likely to think 1 was the Trenier and 2 was the DA.
    People who guessed that guitar 3 was the Trenier were more likely to think 1 was the L5 and 2 was the DA.

    Guitar 1 | Guitar 3
    COUNTA of Guitar 1 Guitar 1
    Guitar 3 D'Angelico Excel Gibson L5 Trenier Broadway Grand Total
    D'Angelico Excel 3 10 13
    Gibson L5 2 5 7
    Trenier Broadway 2 5 7
    Grand Total 4 8 15 27
    D'Angelico Excel 0% 23% 77%
    Gibson L5 29% 0% 71%
    Trenier Broadway 29% 71% 0%


    Last thing before I share the answers. Here's how you did.


    • 63% of you guessed one of the guitars correctly.
      • This was mostly based on accurately guessing the Trenier because it is new and therefore sounds the newest.
      • Some of you spotted the D'A right away. To me, it has an unmistakeable midrange.

    • 19% of you got them all right! Congrats.
    • Obviously it's impossible to have gotten 2/3 right


    Now the answers:


    Guitar 1 was the Trenier
    Guitar 2 was the DA
    Guitar 3 was the L5
    Last edited by omphalopsychos; 01-13-2022 at 01:36 PM.

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27

    User Info Menu

    Nice presentation. The historians of the acoustic Archtop guitar have collectively,....and arguably placed the L5 from this period as "the standard from which subsequent acoustic archtops were judged". In fact, even today, that comparison is still being made ( as illustrated by this test ) - when builders such a Bryant Trenier attempt to recreate that 16" orchestra style guitar. Not sure if your particular L5 has kerfed brace or solid braces - but they were all highly regarded.

    In my opinion , the snakehead D'Angelico of the 30's , of which I own a 35' that has also been refretted by Norio (and once in the private collection of Larry Wexer)is every bit as good, or perhaps even better then a few Loar L5's that I've played.

    We are comparing some of the best acoustic archtops ever made in this discussion.

    In any case, It's nice to see that 29.5 % of the listeners thought Bryant Treniers guitar was indeed the highly regarded L5.

    I also own a fabulous Trenier Broadway from 2015 - that is now fully cured and broken in - and it's voice is extraordinary and equal in every way to my 35' DA, and actually a bit louder.

    It takes years for these guitars to go through the seasonal cycling and curing process to finally develop the microscopic crazing of the cured lacquer - which then enables the instrument to reach its full potential.

    Studies on the affects of fully cured finishes on highly prized violins , and the resultant microscpic cracking were shown to have a direct impact on sound. This is why builders like Jim D'Aquisto were adamant about playing a new guitar hard to open up the guitar. Until then, the instrument will remain somewhat constrained.

    Bottom line - for those wanting to know what it was probably like to own a brand new 20' s Gibson L5 or perhaps the 30's Kenmare street experience .......buy a Trenier Broadway. In a few years, I assure you this blind test would be even more confusing.

    Special thanks to Omph' s time and statistical presentation - and even though the sample size was small, it was very informative.












    Sent from my SM-P610 using Tapatalk
    Last edited by QAman; 01-14-2022 at 07:55 AM.

  4. #28

    User Info Menu

    FWIW, Norman's Rare Guitars guitar of a recent week was a '36 blonde Excel that sounds great.

  5. #29

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by RJVB
    FWIW, Norman's Rare Guitars guitar of a recent week was a '36 blonde Excel that sounds great.
    Yeah! Speaking of, does anyone here know if D'Angelico did natural finishes that early? I've heard that he commonly refinished his own instruments too, later on.

    Here's the listing:

    D'Angelico Excel Grover Blonde Non-Cut | Norman's Rare | Reverb

  6. #30

    User Info Menu

    John wasn't making natural finish guitars that early, even Gibson didn't introduce blonde until '37/'38
    The only natural Gibson I'm aware of that early is Alvino Reys custom '35 Super 400

  7. #31

    User Info Menu

    btw, that's the only Excel I've seen w that headstock inlay/engraving, pretty cool.

  8. #32

    User Info Menu

    Well played, omphalo! Thanks for all the effort and detailed info!

  9. #33

    User Info Menu

    Bravo! Great entertainment as I’m recovering from the flu. Even if I got them all wrong!

    nice job and thanks for doing this, a lot of work.

  10. #34

    User Info Menu

    No idea. However I like the very first one significantly. But iI have doubts why... because maybe the playability of this first one the best, so the sample sounds the best. In case that is not the playability then For me that is the ultimate better sound.

  11. #35

    User Info Menu

    Great comparison. Thank you for doing this.

  12. #36

    User Info Menu

    Here's another, comparible comparison that uses a bit larger and varied sample size (both in terms of guitars and of sound samples). I find it very hard to tell which guitar I prefer but it might be the ugliest one in the lot


  13. #37

    User Info Menu

    I guessed correct ! ( without any reading in the thread of course ) Trenier - D'Angelico - Gibson.

    and I am into Archtops for about 1 year only so far.


    Listening to my home speakers, I could tell that the first guitar is not as old and matured

    as the number 2 and 3.


    I listened to the video 4 times, before I made my choice between two and three.

    my ( all ignorant ) opinion: the Gibson sings in a way the D'Angelico doesn't.


    ( I have three Gibson and they sing with a similar voice )

    ( maybe )

    Last edited by Filmosound 621; 01-16-2022 at 05:13 AM.

  14. #38

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by omphalopsychos
    I wonder how refined people's ears are. I've devised a blindfold test to see how much knowledge we've got on the forum. I'll reveal the answers in a couple of weeks.



    Using the video above, try to guess which guitar matches each clip. The three options are Gibson L5, DAngelico Excel, and Trenier Broadway.

    Submit your answers in this google form.


    ------------------------------------------------------------------
    Please do not post your answers in the thread because it will bias other people's responses. Only use the google form to respond!
    ------------------------------------------------------------------
    Hey - I cannot get the YouTube link to work. Would like to listen


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  15. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by timc100
    Hey - I cannot get the YouTube link to work. Would like to listen


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I'm not sure what I can do, I double checked the link from multiple browsers and devices and have had no issues:


    If that doesn't work, maybe this one will.
    YouTube


    Thanks again everyone for the responses.


    I did want to take a minute to share my notes from playing these and a variety of archtops, now that the dust has settled on the responses and people have formed their own opinions. One thing I wanted to do was share more clips in different styles, techniques, and different registers to showcase where each one of these instruments shines. I did do more takes, but for some reason, the files became corrupted, so I shared the only example that made it. Anyway here are my thoughts on the guitars.

    D'Angelico Excel.
    On the clips, you want to listen to the frequences in the high mid range. There is a strong "ring" that provides girth to the comping chords. Single notes on this guitar also have a lot of body. Of these 3, I think the Excel has the best performance for 4/4 comping. This midrange presence really cuts through nicely and you can really hear the harmony.

    Gibson L5
    My L5 is from 1928, with solid braces, and it is louder than both the D'Angelico and the Trenier. It is regarded as the gold standard of acoustic archtops because of its historical precedence to all other designs, but I also think the sound of the L5 is the most refined archtop tone. For 4/4 comping and single note playing, which were stylistically prevalent in the decade that followed the L5, I don't think it performs quite as well as the D'Angelico. However, the L5 in an instrument that shines in so many genres other than jazz because of its design. This guitar can be strummed and flatpicked like a dreadnought in a way no other archtop can. The sound is more "open" than the D'Angelico, with more bass and treble. This aligns with how Larry Wexer compared the L5 to the Excel he had in his shop at the time I bought the Excel from him.



    Trenier
    The Trenier is a modern instrument, inspired by archtops of the 30s. Bryant builds what he regards as an improvement or a refinement of those designs. As many people have noted, his guitars tend to feature a shallower break angle at the neck. Additionally, the Broadway tends to be significantly shallower in depth than the L5 of the D'Angelico. The voice of the Trenier. is smooth, and very even across the range, with quite a bit of sustain. Single notes in higher registers are quite loud and present without being harsh; in this way it reminds me of the best Epiphones I've played, although the attack envelop feels very different than any of my 30s guitars. It shines for quieter chord melody playing compared to the other guitars. More recent generations of guitar players tend to play with lighter strings and a significantly lighter attack than players of the 30s and 40s, and I think this guitar is voiced to suit that. In that sense, it has reminded me of the few D'Aquisto guitars that I have played.

  16. #40
    Hey again, I just wanted to share this quick clip I recorded with the Trenier; this time playing with a lighter touch. You can really hear the sophistication of the tone in this recording. The notes are impressively full and even like a piano.

    Last edited by omphalopsychos; 01-19-2022 at 12:11 AM.

  17. #41

    User Info Menu

    Thanks for generating a massive GAS attack. Fortunately, I'm well aware that I can't even begin to afford one of those guitars. I identified the guitars correctly. The Trenier was obviously the outlier, and to my ears it was far superior to the others. I picked the dullest sounding as the Gibson, so left with the D'Angelico as the remaining choice.

  18. #42

    User Info Menu

    Good tune selection Juan, really let's the chords and notes ring. Even on my phone I can tell that guitar has it.

  19. #43
    Blindfold Test - Match the guitar to the audio! (Gibson, D'Angelico, Trenier) ANSWERS-img_3067-jpg


    By the way, I noticed that there is a pretty bad buzz in the recording, so I did a second take. My phone is having issues processing the video, but I'll upload the new recording shortly. EDIT: changed the link in the clip above.
    Last edited by omphalopsychos; 01-19-2022 at 12:22 AM.

  20. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by omphalopsychos
    Ok responses stopped coming in so I'm concluding the experiment. The sample size wasn't as large as I hoped (N=27) so take everything with a grain of salt. This was just for fun, so I didn't calculate statistical significance on anything, just some quick numbers.

    Answers are at the bottom, so scroll down if you don't care about response statistics.

    First off, here is the distributions of your responses. The most popular guesses were that 1 was the Trenier, 2 was the L5, and 3 was the DA. Guitar 2 was the one people seemed the most undecided on. People were almost equally split between DA and L5 while a small minority thought it was the Trenier. On avg people were more confident that 1 was the Trenier and 3 was the DA.

    Blindfold Test - Match the guitar to the audio! (Gibson, D'Angelico, Trenier) ANSWERS-screen-shot-2022-01-13-9-12-22-am-png

    Now here are a few more interesting observations and patterns:

    Conditioning on Guess for 1
    People who guessed that guitar 1 was the DA were equally split on the other two guitars.
    People who guessed that guitar 1 was the L5 were more likely to think 2 was the DA and 3 was the Trenier.
    People who guessed that guitar 1 was the Trenier were more likely to think 2 was the L5 and 3 was the DA.

    Guitar 2 | Guitar 1
    COUNTA of Guitar 2 Guitar 2
    Guitar 1 D'Angelico Excel Gibson L5 Trenier Broadway Grand Total
    D'Angelico Excel 2 2 4
    Gibson L5 5 3 8
    Trenier Broadway 5 10 15
    Grand Total 10 12 5 27
    D'Angelico Excel 0% 50% 50%
    Gibson L5 63% 0% 38%
    Trenier Broadway 33% 67% 0%

    Conditioning on Guess for 2
    People who guessed that guitar 2 was the DA were equally split on the other two guitars.
    People who guessed that guitar 2 was the L5 were more likely to think 1 was the Trenier and 3 was the DA.
    People who guessed that guitar 2 was the Trenier were equally split on the other two guitars.

    Guitar 1 | Guitar 2
    COUNTA of Guitar 1 Guitar 1
    Guitar 2 D'Angelico Excel Gibson L5 Trenier Broadway Grand Total
    D'Angelico Excel 5 5 10
    Gibson L5 2 10 12
    Trenier Broadway 2 3 5
    Grand Total 4 8 15 27
    D'Angelico Excel 0% 50% 50%
    Gibson L5 17% 0% 83%
    Trenier Broadway 40% 60% 0%

    Conditioning on Guess for 3
    People who guessed that guitar 3 was the DA were more likely to think 1 was the Trenier and 2 was the L5
    People who guessed that guitar 3 was the L5 were more likely to think 1 was the Trenier and 2 was the DA.
    People who guessed that guitar 3 was the Trenier were more likely to think 1 was the L5 and 2 was the DA.

    Guitar 1 | Guitar 3
    COUNTA of Guitar 1 Guitar 1
    Guitar 3 D'Angelico Excel Gibson L5 Trenier Broadway Grand Total
    D'Angelico Excel 3 10 13
    Gibson L5 2 5 7
    Trenier Broadway 2 5 7
    Grand Total 4 8 15 27
    D'Angelico Excel 0% 23% 77%
    Gibson L5 29% 0% 71%
    Trenier Broadway 29% 71% 0%


    Last thing before I share the answers. Here's how you did.


    • 63% of you guessed one of the guitars correctly.
      • This was mostly based on accurately guessing the Trenier because it is new and therefore sounds the newest.
      • Some of you spotted the D'A right away. To me, it has an unmistakeable midrange.

    • 19% of you got them all right! Congrats.
    • Obviously it's impossible to have gotten 2/3 right


    Now the answers:


    Guitar 1 was the Trenier
    Guitar 2 was the DA
    Guitar 3 was the L5


    Hi OMphalopsychos, that was a very interesting post and study, thanks for that ! I don't know if we know each other but we should get in touch because i love that stuff (don't hesitate to drop by acousticstandardsinparis@gmail.com and say hello).

    I found the right combination of guitars, true that it was quite easy to spot the trenier. I haven't tried any of his guitars but soon i will, they seam very promising.
    The DA sounded very cool in the clip, dryer than mine which is a 42 17 inches. I like the more "old school vibe" of yours, on which it seams you could also play some Eddie Lang, whereas mine seams to excel more for refined Bebop stuff and elegant soft chord melodies (and balads, this guitar is the best for that).
    Your L5 didn't sound like my 34 16 inches L5 though, but that might be the reecording. Also it could have been very cool to hear the 3 guitars on chord melody but i've read the files got corrupted and you could post only one.

    Thanks for the comparison, and please don't hesitate to post some more.
    Cheers
    Romain