The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #126

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    Total cost for the repair and the $3300 I paid for the axe would exceed the new cost of the hand carved version of the guitar. (Mine is all laminated)
    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    the feeling at benedetto is that to fix it properly, it needs to be re-necked, re-finished - $2000, 4 month wait time but they are backlogged and not taking on repairs currently.
    We're all solidly behind the fact that this guitar should not have been represented as fine and sold without disclosure of some pretty serious problems. And we're accepting at face value that it was advertised as being excellent and not sold "as is" with a disclaimer of any kind making reference to any issues. But there are now two major factual errors in the narrative that have me just a bit concerned.


    1. This thread was titled and predicated on the guitar in question's being a hand carved archtop - but it's not.
    2. The total of $3300 and $2000 is $5300. A Bambino Elite costs $15k.


    How likely is a hand carved archtop surviving a week lost in 12°F weather???-benedetto_bambino_elite_price-jpg

    There's a $9,700 gap between the cost of this laminated guitar when restored to health by Benedetto and the cost of a new Bambino Elite (a hand carved solid wood instrument). I think it would help such discussions in general and this one in particular for us all to pursue accuracy and eschew hyperbolic exaggeration. My first post in this thread said that I thought all Bambinos are laminated, and I checked on the Benedetto site to be certain I was correct. I was. All Bambinos are laminated - the carved model is the Bambino Elite, a different instrument in a different price class (and one that I did not know existed). A Bambino Elite is to a Bambino as an L4CES is to a 175D.

    Apart from the fact that I value accuracy, the main reason I'm concerned is simple - if these errors are included in the PayPal complaint or any other attempts to resolve the problem with return of the money and the guitar to buyer and seller, they will make it harder to succeed.

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  3. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
    We're all solidly behind the fact that this guitar should not have been represented as fine and sold without disclosure of some pretty serious problems. And we're accepting at face value that it was advertised as being excellent and not sold "as is" with a disclaimer of any kind making reference to any issues. But there are now two major factual errors in the narrative that have me just a bit concerned.


    1. This thread was titled and predicated on the guitar in question's being a hand carved archtop - but it's not.
    2. The total of $3300 and $2000 is $5300. A Bambino Elite costs $15k.

    He mentioned that there were a few finish issues but nothing structural. No mention of the severity of the neck joint "cracks", no mention of the crack in the neck behind the truss rod, no mention of the issues with the frets or the edge of the fingerboard. No photos of any of these issues. I also made the mistake of assuming that (as an established veteran player/teacher) he would stand behind the sale in the case of any structural problems was my fault but that doesn't absolve him of responsibility and i'm confident that in light of the evidence, paypal (or if necessary, chase visa) will back me up. But if not, so be it. My fault for being naive. You'd think i'd have learned by my age.

    And the "carved" aspect of it was my mistake. I didn't realize it was a laminated guitar when I first posted this thread. A bambino is $5000, the total cost of this guitar plus the repairs exceeds that.

  4. #128
    This is more naivete on my part but the more I look back on this, the more I think he's just trying to pull one over on me. Notice that he answers my question without actually saying anything definitive. I think he was nuancing his answers to try to avoid disclosure.

    But personally, i think my question and his answer - when contrasted with Benedetto's comments - clarifies the entire situation. Not to say that paypal or chase will do the right thing but I think it all boils down to this...

    How likely is a hand carved archtop surviving a week lost in 12°F weather???-damage-disclosure-conversation-jpg
    Last edited by jzucker; 01-17-2022 at 07:08 PM.

  5. #129

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    in light of the evidence, paypal (or if necessary, chase visa) will back me up. But if not, so be it.
    Back when Paypal did not live up to their guarantee to me (on a transaction where I was clearly a victim of outright fraud), I was letting Paypal take money directly from my bank account. After that I have run all my Paypal purchases through my American Express card. I think one's credit card company will provide a more complete guarantee than Paypal will, especially if you are a longtime user of that credit card.

    Buying guitars over the last 54 years, I have learned that one man's "excellent condition" is another man's "fair condition". This is a case where the seller and buyer did not see eye to eye. A return should be allowed as legally, the buyer is in the right. But exercising one's legal rights are usually more expensive than the purchase price of almost any guitar.

    @JZ, I have way more faith in AMEX than Chase (I bank with Chase and would not rely on them for a credit card guarantee)

  6. #130

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    You'd think i'd have learned by my age.
    The more we learn, the more we discover how little we know - so we grow old too soon and smart too late! I figured I'd have mastered something by the time I passed 70. But I'm halfway through my 8th decade now with nary a glimpse of greatness. Fortunately, I like myself anyway. Follow my lead and no stinkin' guitar's going to ruin it.

    Be of good cheer and enjoy this song. I'm sure the Gershwins wrote it to describe how great we feel with a fine guitar in our hands, a wee dram of Scotch in the glass, and people who care about us. Here's to the good stuff in life and to hell with the rest -


  7. #131

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    Fellas. This is why if you purchase an instrument online you MUST purchase with an Amex card if you purchase through PayPal. Then call Amex first, and not PayPal. Amex will fight with PayPal and also reimburse you first. PayPal doesn’t always honor a buyers complaint.

    Not your fault Jack, but now you know how to handle this. Never call PayPal first, but instead your CC company and preferably Amex.

  8. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
    Fellas. This is why if you purchase an instrument online you MUST purchase with an Amex card if you purchase through PayPal. Then call Amex first, and not PayPal. Amex will fight with PayPal and also reimburse you first. PayPal doesn’t always honor a buyers complaint.

    Not your fault Jack, but now you know how to handle this. Never call PayPal first, but instead your CC company and preferably Amex.
    Ugh...Chase actually advised me to let paypal's dispute resolution play out and then if I don't get any satisfaction, I could open a claim with them.

  9. #133

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    Ugh...Chase actually advised me to let paypal's dispute resolution play out and then if I don't get any satisfaction, I could open a claim with them.
    Sounds about right. PayPal's policy—at least a few years ago—was not to allow appeals once they made their determination. In my case, a seller on Reverb never shipped the item I bought. After I badgered him a bit within Reverb's messaging system, the seller didn't communicate with me directly, but did issue a refund—but then he (or someone) immediately cancelled the refund. Reverb refused to help in any meaningful way since I paid with PayPal. Once PayPal saw he had issued the refund, they ruled in the seller's favor, not accounting for the fact that I never received the refund because the seller cancelled it—amazing since I could clearly see on my PayPal profile that the refund had been cancelled. PayPal also wouldn't let me appeal, per their policy on disputes at the time. Once I provided all the above info my credit card company—not Chase, not Amex—they promptly issued a chargeback and that was all she wrote. It's a pain, but provided your information is accurate and complete, I think you have a fighting chance of getting your money back. Maybe you'll even get to keep a busted-ass Bambino for all your efforts.
    Last edited by wzpgsr; 01-17-2022 at 07:55 PM.

  10. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by wzpgsr
    Sounds about right. PayPal's policy—at least a few years ago—was not to allow appeals once they made their determination. In my case, a seller on Reverb never shipped the item I bought. After I badgered him a bit within Reverb's messaging system, the seller didn't communicate with me directly, but did issue a refund—but then he (or someone) immediately cancelled the refund. Reverb refused to help in any meaningful way since I paid with PayPal. Once PayPal saw he had issued the refund, they ruled in the seller's favor, not accounting for the fact that I never received the refund because the seller cancelled it—amazing since I could clearly see on my PayPal profile that the refund had been cancelled. PayPal also wouldn't let me appeal, per their policy on disputes at the time. Once I provided all the above info my credit card company—not Chase, not Amex—they promptly issues a chargeback and that was all she wrote. It's a pain, but provided your information is accurate and complete, I think you have a fighting chance of getting your money back. Maybe you'll even get to keep a busted-ass Bambino for all your efforts.
    Chase told me my other option would be to just send the guitar back (at my expense). I had originally printed a label and gave the tracking info to the seller but he texted me that he would refuse receipt and it would be returned to me. Chase said that if they approve me sending it back and the seller refuses receipt, they would still refund my money. I'm going to call chase back tomorrow to the escalation department (closed today) and see what they advise me to do.

  11. #135

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    Chase told me my other option would be to just send the guitar back (at my expense). I had originally printed a label and gave the tracking info to the seller but he texted me that he would refuse receipt and it would be returned to me. Chase said that if they approve me sending it back and the seller refuses receipt, they would still refund my money. I'm going to call chase back tomorrow to the escalation department (closed today) and see what they advise me to do.
    My advice is to get Chase to confirm that policy in writing.

    "If it sounds too good to be true . . ."

  12. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Sherry
    My advice is to get Chase to confirm that policy in writing.

    "If it sounds too good to be true . . ."
    I had it happen once before. Chase decided in my favor and I told the seller I was sending the guitar back to him. He said he would just refuse it and I warned him that if he did, he would forfeit the guitar and the refund but he didn't listen. As soon as the shipper acknowledged he refused shipment on the guitar, chase refunded my money and told me to keep the guitar.

    But then the seller emailed me saying I needed to ship the guitar back to him since I had the guitar and the money. Chase said that legally I could keep it and I told him that. BUT...I told him if he sent me a pre-paid label I would ship the guitar back to him. He couldn't seem to understand basic logic however (a common problem in american society) and kept insisting that I needed to send it back at my expense. I explained to him a half dozen times that he refused receipt of it and that I had already paid to ship it to him once and I wasn't going to pay AGAIN to ship it to him.

    I finally got a prepaid label and shipped it to him. Never heard back from him again (luckily).

  13. #137
    Paypal ruled in my favor. Full refund, have to ship it back at my expense but glad to be rid of the headache of this whole ordeal...

  14. #138

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    Good Jack. Glad things are settling out on this. But, there are plenty of us wanting to know who treated you this way. Cheers!

  15. #139

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    Good News..

    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    Paypal ruled in my favor. Full refund, have to ship it back at my expense but glad to be rid of the headache of this whole ordeal...

  16. #140

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    Paypal ruled in my favor. Full refund, have to ship it back at my expense but glad to be rid of the headache of this whole ordeal...
    This is good to hear.

    AND, thanks for telling everyone how it worked with returning the guitar, calling CC company etc. That is, potentially, very useful information. A public service.

    Your story is a proper warning. Buy from reputable and well-known shops (source etc).

  17. #141

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    Quote Originally Posted by PDeville
    This is good to hear.

    AND, thanks for telling everyone how it worked with returning the guitar, calling CC company etc. That is, potentially, very useful information. A public service.

    Your story is a proper warning. Buy from reputable and well-known shops (source etc).
    Not even that is always a safe option. I had a reputable shop in Chicago (not CME) ship me an Altamira classical that had a nice gig bag. The shop didn't even ship it in anything more than the box insert it would have arrived in when double-boxed. Needless to say, the headstock was snapped clean off. He took zero responsibility for it and instead of just refunding me and sending a label, had Reverb handle it all. Thankfully it was a pretty simple case of negligence, but it seems like even "reputable" shops sometimes don't care. I'm at the point where when selling on Reverb, I send pictures of the guitar again to the buyer, as well as pictures of how it is packed.

    Anyway, happy this was resolved Jack. It's unfortunate that even the simplest thing of being decent to one another evaded the seller.
    Last edited by JSanta; 01-18-2022 at 02:49 PM.

  18. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by JSanta
    Not even that is always a safe option. I had a reputable shop in Chicago (not CME) ship me an Altamira classical that had a nice gig bag. The shop didn't even ship it in anything more than the box insert it would have arrived in when double-boxed. Needless to say, the headstock was snapped clean off. He took zero responsibility for it and instead of just refunding me and sending a label, had Reverb handle it all. Thankfully it was a pretty simple case of negligence, but it seems like even "reputable" shops sometimes don't care. I'm at the point where when selling on Reverb, I send pictures of the guitar again to the buyer, as well as pictures of how it is packed.

    Anyway, happy this was resolved Jack. It's unfortunate that even the simplest thing of being decent to one another evaded the seller. I
    You're right about so-called "reputable" shops. I've had 2 very bad experiences with shops that continually get kudos around here. One of them sent me a 175 with a HUGE undisclosed crack in the neck heel. (Not the joint but the actual heel) and it was clearly NOT just a finish crack. I returned it for a refund and the screwed around with getting the refund to me and I had to call them a bunch of times to get this to happen. Meanwhile, they had relisted the guitar on reverb and STILL did not disclose the crack. I even contacted reverb about it who did absolutely nothing about it!

    In another case, a well known dealer took my money (i had to pay using paypal friends and family) and then they pulled the old trick of printing a label without actually shipping it and it took a couple weeks before it actually shipped. When I got it, it had almost no frets left (they claimed plenty of life left).

    And, I'm still waiting for Lovies to call me back from 3 emails and 3 voicemails I left them in december about a 175 they had.

    I think we're in a new age where the dealers are struggling to hold on for dear life and what you end up with is just as much hit or miss as buying from ebay or reverb. The only consolation with a known dealer is that they may have a documented return policy *AND* they won't want to risk losing their CC processing status...

    Folks always advice people to buy from brick and mortar stores where you can try something out but friends of mine in NYC say that the days of walking into a guitar shop there and seeing a wall full of vintage gibsons is long gone. Even Gruhn guitars only has 2 gibson archtops in stock. I remember the days of them having 15-20 vintage archtops!

    Gruhn is one dealer that I would say you can buy from with utmost confidence - HOWEVER, even that is a sample count of 1 deal. And that's the problem with the human psyche. We tend to frame things in the context of our own experiences. We give credence to anecdotal references to things without considering the larger part of the data picture.

  19. #143

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    So where the hell have all the archtops gone? If there are fewer and fewer people playing jazz, and those instruments are mostly not suitable for rock 'n' roll, etc., Who is stockpiling them? There are thousands of them out there, probably tens of thousands. And yet nobody seems to have any for sale; ironically, the rarer vintage guitars seem to be more plentiful than the more plebian tapes. If you want a 1930s Epiphone archtop, it seems to be easier to find one of those than a 1975 ES 175.

  20. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Cunamara
    So where the hell have all the archtops gone? If there are fewer and fewer people playing jazz, and those instruments are mostly not suitable for rock 'n' roll, etc., Who is stockpiling them? There are thousands of them out there, probably tens of thousands. And yet nobody seems to have any for sale; ironically, the rarer vintage guitars seem to be more plentiful than the more plebian tapes. If you want a 1930s Epiphone archtop, it seems to be easier to find one of those than a 1975 ES 175.
    the simple answer? reverb.com. Selling an archtop to a store is a huge loss of revenue. They are typically not going to give you even $0.60 / dollar of value. Stores that sell on consignment range from 15% to 25% and then along comes reverb where you can sell something at a 6% commission (including reverb and paypal fees) and maybe another 4% if you pay their "bump" ransomware fee.

    Reverb has the advantage to the seller that it is painful to return something and doesn't have the risk of the item getting damaged while it's sitting in a shop and poorly cared for.

  21. #145

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    A simpler answer is guitar hoarding, something that I admittedly engage in myself.

  22. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by Stringswinger
    A simpler answer is guitar hoarding, something that I admittedly engage in myself.
    Possibly but if you go to reverb and do a search for gibson archtop there are hundreds!

    Guitars-n-jazz has 400 archtops in stock or so they say. I'm guessing that most of them are peerless and eastman. And that's another thing that's happened to the archtop market.

  23. #147
    so, this is weird. I shipped the guitar back and responded to paypal's request to send return-tracking info. Then yesterday evening I get a message from paypal saying I needed to get a repair estimate and then a second message from them saying I needed to respond with a tracking number.

    I'm also a bit concerned that the seller may have one more "play" in mind. Either he refuses shipment of the item or claims there was shipping damage returning it to him. I won't be "settled" until I get the actual refund.

  24. #148
    I spent 30 minutes on the phone with paypal resolution support. They now tell me that i don't need to provide any additional documentation and that there was a mixup on their end regarding the case resolution which is why it sent me the additional 2 questions after I had already provided the tracking number. However, one fly in the ointment is that they told me that once the tracking number shows that the item was delivered, the case will go back to the dispute resolution team for evaluation. I assume this is moreorless a rubber stamp but they are so horribly disorganized that I'm a little paranoid. Additionally, as I mentioned above, the seller could refuse receipt of the item or try to make some other claim.

  25. #149

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    Possibly but if you go to reverb and do a search for gibson archtop there are hundreds!

    Guitars-n-jazz has 400 archtops in stock or so they say. I'm guessing that most of them are peerless and eastman. And that's another thing that's happened to the archtop market.
    I played around a bit with their inventory pages. Depending on how you look at it, you get different totals, and if you drill into some brands you get non-archtops included in the results. But it looks like their archtop inventory is 308, 239 of which is Peerless + Eastman, so yeah. But there is a more of other stuff than I would have guessed, and more than other dealers appear to have (but a lot less than can be found on Reverb). I went there in late 2020 when I was on my last archtop quest. It's a funny place -- the "showroom" was a booth in a little mall of cosmetic, hardware, and tchotchke shops, with a few guitars hanging from the ceiling, and the rest warehoused somewhere else. I guess it works for them. But it's kind of strange to see their online reputation/presence, and then you go there and it's like "wait, where the guitar store?" Anyway, let's hope this long national nightmare of yours ends and we can all get back to debating the meaning of "thunk."
    Attached Images Attached Images How likely is a hand carved archtop surviving a week lost in 12°F weather???-ffsw-300x300-jpg 

  26. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by John A.
    I played around a bit with their inventory pages. Depending on how you look at it, you get different totals, and if you drill into some brands you get non-archtops included in the results. But it looks like their archtop inventory is 308, 239 of which is Peerless + Eastman, so yeah. But there is a more of other stuff than I would have guessed, and more than other dealers appear to have (but a lot less than can be found on Reverb). I went there in late 2020 when I was on my last archtop quest. It's a funny place -- the "showroom" was a booth in a little mall of cosmetic, hardware, and tchotchke shops, with a few guitars hanging from the ceiling, and the rest warehoused somewhere else. I guess it works for them. But it's kind of strange to see their online reputation/presence, and then you go there and it's like "wait, where the guitar store?" Anyway, let's hope this long national nightmare of yours ends and we can all get back to debating the meaning of "thunk."
    i've also noticed that he doesn't update his site regularly so sometimes there are things on there that when I've called - he doesn't actually have in stock. His and archtop.com's sites have to be among the worst anywhere. He's a good dude. I like dealing with him better than archtop.com.