Eastman John Pisano AR380CE - pickup placement question

[Meggy]

Hi all, forgive me for an extended forum absence, but nice to be back. A couple of days ago I had a go playing someone's Eastman John Pisano model AR380CE - basically an ES175 shape, but with ebony fingerboard and other parts, and the neck pickup is up against the end of the 20 fret neck, instead of there being a gap as on a 175. It sounded fantastic through my Polytone Minibrute amp (a very fine jazz guitarist present also thought so) and I found it very playable indeed. Anyhow, so taken was I that I think I might shortly be ordering one.

But I have a question regarding that neck pickup placement - does it make an appreciable difference in tone, compared to a 175 style guitar, where the pickup is a little further towards the bridge? If not, then just maybe I'd consider one of Eastman's AR372CE model, which is more of a straight 175 copy, and I'd save a few hundred pounds. Grateful for your experienced thoughts on this one, and I've linked to both models if you'd be kind enough to have a look. This will actually only be the 2nd hollowbody archtop I've bought in 40 odd years of playing, so I can't claim a lot of experience on pickup placement myself.

AR380CE - Eastman Guitars

AR372CE - Eastman Guitars

[ARGewirtz]

Meggy,
I read your post and thought that you might appreciate Rich Severson's review of the Eastman 380ce that he posted about 5-6 years ago. As for the placement of the neck pickup, Rich does not mention it in the video but he has many times over the years insisted that to his ears the tone of a guitar is better when the neck pickup is closer to the bottom of the neck rather than further toward the bridge. I recall that he commented on this specifically a while back when doing a demo of a Guild X-150, so you may want to track down that video on his YouTube channel.
Cheers,
Andrew

[Oscar67]

But I have a question regarding that neck pickup placement - does it make an appreciable difference in tone, compared to a 175 style guitar, where the pickup is a little further towards the bridge?

Your question might have different answers, depending on who you ask. Your personal way of playing, the strings you use, the amp settings, all of that influences how much of a difference you will actually hear. Depending on factors such as these, the difference might range from almost imperceivable to profound. Fine guitar, by the way!

[Meggy]

Thank you for the replies chaps - I've now watched that Rich Severson video, very interesting. He seems to get somewhat of a different kind of sound than I did, but some very useful thoughts and points made all the same. I guess the main thing is that I really liked the sound and how the guitar felt and played in my own hands - which is always the strongest reason for acquiring a guitar. Wish I was able to try an AR372CE as well, that would be interesting.

[ccroft]

Meggy: you might want to make another post asking about the diff between Gibson 165 VS 175 in this regard. I know there's plenty of folks here who have experience with those 2 who might pass a post with Eastman in the title. I would think that's where the real world experience is, and it might give you a hint , even though all these guitars are all quite different.

I know it's been talked about on the Gibsons. I think I remember someone saying that the diff was inconsequential, and you can make one sound like the other with the tone knob. Or...maybe they were talking about Byrdlands... Maybe a little forum searching. Maybe ask here.

One other thought: I have a Pisano 880, and I love it a lot. There may be some sort of secret Pisano sauce. Like the neck shape for EG. It's my favourite and I'm not sure all Eastmen have that. The 380 might be more different from the 372 than you might think.

[John A.]

Yes it makes a difference, but it's a matter of taste, and pretty subtle. As an example, Joe Pass played a custom made 175 at the end that had the pickup against the neck:

Which you can compare to his more classic 175 tone:

Not entirely ceteris paribus because the custom 175 is shallower and has only 1 pickup. But one can get a sense. To my ears you get a little more midrange grittiness with the stock 175, and a little cleaner and "flutier" sound with the custom.

This is consistent with my experience trying a bunch of guitars with the two different placements. It's noticeable, but I don't think it makes for a fundamentally different sounding guitar.

I tend not to find Rich Severson's videos all that helpful. He goes for a very bright sound and also modifies all his guitars by putting plastic spacers between the guitar top and the pickup mounting rings (something he mentions in many of his videos). The effect of that is to make all his guitars a bit more like floating pickups, and to show that he can get his very particular taste in tone out of many guitars. But I don't think it allows one to get a good sense of how different guitars compare to each other.

[Meggy]

Thank you John A, a most useful post that helped me to get my thoughts together, and indeed thanks to all who responded.

I have just ordered the Pisano model AR380CE - this is the model that I played and fell in love with. I think the AR372 would be louder acoustically (being deeper bodied) and a bit brighter and zingier in tone, but I tend to prefer a darker kind of tone (without getting into muddy territory), and I did love the sound of the AR380 through my Polytone amp, there seemed to be a synergy there. And not that it would have been a decider, but I like the looks more for this model.

Have a small gig in a week's time, so I'm now looking forward to playing my new beauty at that one.

[sgosnell]

I'm not sure deeper bodies always equal louder volume. I had an Eastman T145, 1.75" in depth, and it was very loud. Not a lot of bass content, but loud, very mid forward. I have three Wu-built carved top archtops. One is an 18"x3.25", one is 17"x2.75", and one is 15.75"x2.25". The smaller is the loudest, and the big deep Super 400 sort-of-copy is the quietest. It has the most bass content/response by far, but not the volume. All have similar tops in terms of thickness, being Eastman-style Benedetto copies. Wu was one of the original Eastman employees who later went out on his own, and carves his tops to very similar specs. IME, the primary effect depth has on sound is timbre, with thinner being brighter and thicker being darker and bassier.

[Jonathan0996]

Ideally you want the pickup to be in line with the second octave harmonic, I believe.
The knock on 22-fret guitars has always been that it puts the pickup out of line with that harmonic.

[sgosnell]

I keep hearing this, but I've never heard a credible explanation of the physics of why it would be so. The second harmonic moves as the string is fretted. The only thing I've read that makes any sense at all is that it can help when playing harmonics, by letting the player see where the 24th fret harmonic is. To me, that doesn't provide enough validity to make it worth caring about for most players. I do believe that the nearer the pickup gets to the bridge, the brighter the tone, proved by the difference between a neck and a bridge pickup. However, the difference in tone caused by changing the pickup position by less than an inch is likely to be small, and perhaps not evident to most listeners.

[John A.]

I keep hearing this, but I've never heard a credible explanation of the physics of why it would be so. The second harmonic moves as the string is fretted. The only thing I've read that makes any sense at all is that it can help when playing harmonics, by letting the player see where the 24th fret harmonic is. To me, that doesn't provide enough validity to make it worth caring about for most players. I do believe that the nearer the pickup gets to the bridge, the brighter the tone, proved by the difference between a neck and a bridge pickup. However, the difference in tone caused by changing the pickup position by less than an inch is likely to be small, and perhaps not evident to most listeners.

I agree. If you think about it, a humbucker against a 20-fret neck vs one the equivalent of 2 frets further toward the bridge overlap considerably, so their magnetic fields likely cover almost the same area. There's _some_ difference, but it's minimal.

Regarding the 2nd octave node, the typical strat neck pickup is right under it, which makes it difficult to tune with harmonics on this setting. That's the only significance I can see when it comes specifically to pickup placement in relation to open string harmonics.

Regarding 22 fret necks, a humbucker definitely sounds good butted up against neck (e.g., Les Paul and 335 style guitars). IMO, it doesn't sound so good further back (e.g., the Ibanez JP20 spot), which to me gives it something of a strat middle pickup sound. But none of this has anything to do with the 2nd octave open-string harmonic.

[Meggy]

I'm not sure deeper bodies always equal louder volume. I had an Eastman T145, 1.75" in depth, and it was very loud. Not a lot of bass content, but loud, very mid forward. I have three Wu-built carved top archtops. One is an 18"x3.25", one is 17"x2.75", and one is 15.75"x2.25". The smaller is the loudest, and the big deep Super 400 sort-of-copy is the quietest. It has the most bass content/response by far, but not the volume. All have similar tops in terms of thickness, being Eastman-style Benedetto copies. Wu was one of the original Eastman employees who later went out on his own, and carves his tops to very similar specs. IME, the primary effect depth has on sound is timbre, with thinner being brighter and thicker being darker and bassier.

What you say makes sense, and you obviously have more expe rience of these things than I do, so I happily accept I'm wrong. Probably I am noticing the pickup placement differences, if anything - hard to gain much of a meaningful impression from Youtube videos...

[Meggy]

I agree. If you think about it, a humbucker against a 20-fret neck vs one the equivalent of 2 frets further toward the bridge overlap considerably, so their magnetic fields likely cover almost the same area. There's _some_ difference, but it's minimal.

Regarding the 2nd octave node, the typical strat neck pickup is right under it, which makes it difficult to tune with harmonics on this setting. That's the only significance I can see when it comes specifically to pickup placement in relation to open string harmonics.

Regarding 22 fret necks, a humbucker definitely sounds good butted up against neck (e.g., Les Paul and 335 style guitars). IMO, it doesn't sound so good further back (e.g., the Ibanez JP20 spot), which to me gives it something of a strat middle pickup sound. But none of this has anything to do with the 2nd octave open-string harmonic.

I have a JP20, and agree with you about that certainly - I made a new scratchplate for mine and fitted an extra floating CC type pickup in the gap (all reversible back to the guitar's original stock form). Also agreed a humbucker up against the neck on a 22 fret is fine, but I suppose my original question was about whether a humbucker up against a 20 fret neck gives a further appreciable difference - I suspect it does.

[sgosnell]

I have a couple of 20-fret guitars, with DeArmond Rhythm Chief pickups mounted using the rod, and I usually keep the pickup against the end of the neck. But I have moved it further away, just to see what it sounded like. The only difference I can hear is that the tone becomes a little brighter as the pickup is moved further toward the bridge. The difference is not dramatic, and is easily compensated for by a slight adjustment of the tone control, on either the guitar or the amp. I don't believe that whether the pickup is a humbucker or a single-coil makes much if any difference, but I don't have a floating humbucker available that I could easily install as movable.

[Meggy]

I have a couple of 20-fret guitars, with DeArmond Rhythm Chief pickups mounted using the rod, and I usually keep the pickup against the end of the neck. But I have moved it further away, just to see what it sounded like. The only difference I can hear is that the tone becomes a little brighter as the pickup is moved further toward the bridge. The difference is not dramatic, and is easily compensated for by a slight adjustment of the tone control, on either the guitar or the amp. I don't believe that whether the pickup is a humbucker or a single-coil makes much if any difference, but I don't have a floating humbucker available that I could easily install as movable.

I have found appreciable differences between different pickups myself - that is one thing I have experimented with a fair bit, although I don't have much experience swapping pickups on archtops. But very possible there is only a slight change with pickup sound comparing 22 and 20 fret neck placement, and as you say, a tweak of the eq would easily compensate. At some point though - i.e. move the pickup far enough, and eq won't compensate adequately. This after all, is why jazz guitarists don't typically use the bridge pickup. Anyhow, grateful for your thoughts and experience.

[sgosnell]

Of course there is a point beyond which anyone can hear a difference that can't be concealed. But I can't say exactly where that point is. I don't think it's an inch from the end of the fretboard, though, but somewhere beyond that. That inch can often be heard though, without a slight tweak of the EQ.