-
Never thought I'd be asking something like this...
I've come to notice something strange with my Loar LH650, esp. the B string. It'll easily go flat when playing, either loudly (finger-digging-picking-in) or bending. So I'd tune it up, pull it (up, running a few fingers from saddle to nut and back), tune it back up etc. With the pulling I can easily get it from say 5ct sharp to almost 20ct flat. At some point though it'll start creeping back up of itself when I let it, which suggests tension is re-equilibrating itself on both sides of the nut and/or the saddle.
This begs the question how one gets the instrument in tune reliably...
I have over 30 years violin playing experience plus a blue monday on bass viol, you'd think I'm used to the behaviour of strings on a floating wooden bridge. I do know I helped new strings glide over the bridge when tuning them up with some graphite powder and by holding them up a tad with a finger just in front of the bridge (also helped preventing the bridge from being pulled forward). I played much more elastic strings (nylon and real gut) but once stabilised they didn't exhibit the kind of behaviour I'm seeing now. Of course tension is much higher on a violin, I rarely plucked them as vigorously, and bending ... makes little sense on a fretless instrument.
-
01-06-2022 02:17 PM
-
Are you sure it’s not the tuner? The string may slip from the tuning post if it’s not fastened properly, or if the tuner is giving out.
Gesendet von iPhone mit Tapatalk
-
Some things to check, which you've probably already thought of:
Have the slots in the nut been sized to accept the sizes of strings you're using?
Is the nut well-cut, i.e., are the slots straight? Is the bottom of each string slot flat and smooth? Are the sides smooth?
Do the tuners slip? Do the posts wiggle when there's no string attached?
Are the strings mechanically well-coupled to the tuning posts? Does the string come off the top of its wind onto the tuning post, or off the bottom? Does the string come off the inside or the outside of the tuning post? Are the winds sitting securely contacting the post, or are they situated so that they can slip slightly (radially to the post) over adjacent winds?
-
Nothing else has changed? Same brand, size, type of strings as before this started? Strung the same way - wrappings, cut, etc? Began suddenly or came on gradually? Is it in fact all strings but more so on the B, or is it just the B? New strings make no difference? No other changes to instrument? No seemingly minor shocks - bumped against anything (even padded, like a drop from sofa or onto stand)? Tuners all still feel the same - resistance to turning, smoothness, consistent resistance through full turns of the buttons and full turns of the posts? No crack or damage to the nut / slot under a magnifying lens? Bridge saddles intact and in proper locations/ orientation? Tailpiece intact and ball ends solidly secure?
-
I'm using a 2 week old set of TI AC112s which replaced the identical set that was on the guitar when I got it, since who knows how long.
I did have a doubt about the way the B string wounded onto the post so I reinstalled it yesterday. That doesn't seem to have made much difference, and I am certain the other strings that also exhibit this phenomenon are all installed just fine. Tuners (Grovers) seem fine, though I find that they sometimes don't have an immediate effect. Which hints at binding in the nut. I get much worse binding with the AC111 D string (flatwound in that set, I think) on my jumbo; there it can really "jump" (which sounds like it happens at the saddle, however unlikely that probably is). Maybe I should put some graphite in all string slots.
The only "accident" the guitar has had since it is in my possession is that the front of the headstock scraped against a thin plywood window shutter (by front I mean the part pointing away from the tail button!).
The ball ends are all well seated; how could them not being seated correctly explain the string intonation creeping back up?
That saddle is the original, height-adjustable, compensated ebony one. I have a hunch the B and G slots in the bridge saddle are slightly wide, so I put pieces of thick aluminium foil under the strings which seemed to decrease buzzing (but I haven't checked that effect since fixing buzzing caused by the pickup cables). Coincidentally the B and G are the strings that show my issue the most, maybe because the slide more easily over the saddle?
BTW, the saddle itself leans backwards a bit, probably pulled that way because of the steeper break angle behind it. Something I'll point out to the luthier who'll be doing the much-needed set-up at the end of the month but not something that I let myself be bothered about too much for now.
-
Sounds like the problem is the nut slots. They can be rough, or too narrow, or both. This can also be caused by the saddle slots, but that's much less likely.
-
I'm expecting the nut to be "attacked" anyway during the setup; action at the nut is too high for the 3 highest strings for example (so in addition to the tuning thing with the B, it also intonates too sharp on the lower frets because I have to press it down too much, plus I get fret buzz higher up). The low E and A slots may actually be a bit low and the low E slot also a bit wide. Lots of fret buzz on the A, and the E has a ring to it (mostly on the open string) that sounds like a loose winding. That's unlikely on an almost new silk-and-steel string at over 50% relative humidity so I suspect the slots. The saddle slot can also cause this kind of parasite noise if the string doesn't sit correctly - and I can actually see an imprint of the string winding in the bottom of that slot.
Reminds me: can the strings have made similar imprints in the nut slots if the guitar has been sitting under tension unplayed for long enough?
Fortunately the guitar really sounds nice despite these little naggles, with a lot more bass and sustain than I expected (I admit, it's in drop-D ATM, that can't hurt ^^). And there's some kind of "aura" around the notes when I don't try to play too loudly, something that somehow reminds me of a violin or cello (played in a space with nice acoustics).
-
You don't tell us what kind of guitar it is, so I don't know what kind of tailpiece it has. If the ball end is held in a metal strip lining the wood (e.g. the "ebony" archtop tailpieces that have folded metal sheets inside), that metal can have some "spring" to it. If it's not pefectly shaped and sized for the ball end, the tension of the string will deform it a bit. If the slope of the metal sheet on top of and/or below the ball end diverges from the string axis going toward the endpin (as can happen if the curve of the front of the metal strip is tapered at all or the radius at the very front is slightly less than that of the ball end), the metal strip will push inwards and backwards on the ball as it tries to relax the tension that's pushing it apart. Here's my quick and dirty illustration of the vector physics behind this:
Originally Posted by RJVB
It's also possible that the metal inside the tailpiece is slightly crimped. This would both make the ball harder to fully seat and create the above situation. Here's a currently active thread about the difficulty seating TI ball ends in these tailpieces. I think I have this situation in my Eastman 810CE7 because the lowest 3 balls are a bit difficult to seat and also to push back out when removing the strings. But in mine, the constriction isn't tight enough to hold the ball behind it, so it stays in tune fine once the ball ends are firmly seated against the inside of the metal strip in the tailpiece.
It's also possible that the end wrap of the winding is causing the string to hang up in the slot, which could deform the lower part of that metal strip and have a similar effect. That doesn't seem to be the case in my guitar because I can easily slip the strings up through the slot.
-
Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
Should I have used the official designation, The Loar LH-650VS? Originally Posted by myself
The tailpiece looks to be made of some kind of cast metal. It takes some getting used to the slots on the underside, but the business part is a hunk of metal with slots that are a bit narrower than the ball end "cylinders" are high. It's probably better to install the strings such that the opening in the balls are facing up/down but they seem to lock well enough against the tailpiece backend in the other orientation too.
-
I had this problem on one of my guitars. Ended up being that the tuner had worked itself loose.
Take a screwdriver and see if there aren't one or more loose screws on the b-tuner.
-
Sorry - all I had in my head was the thread title. But I don’t know exactly what kind of tailpiece you have, so I included a ball end seating problem as another potential factor. Originally Posted by RJVB
Should I have used the official designation, The Loar LH-650VS?
You’re right about the position of the ball. The diameter of the round end is greater than the distance from flat to flat. I have to rotate the string and pull on it at the same time, so that the narrow axis can slip between top and bottom.
-
First time I noticed something odd with the B string was when I twiddled with the rolled-up free end of the string (I don't cut) to avoid it buzzing, and the string lost tuning as if I'd managed to turn the peg by hand. Didn't see anything wrong with the tuner then, but I haven't checked its internal screws (the ones not holding it to the wood). Originally Posted by Greentone
I don't see though how a loose tuner would allow the tuning to drop when you pull on the string, and then let it creep back up again. That sounds like some form of elasticity at work somewhere, very strange in a material that's supposed to be hardly elastic at all (I'd be much less surprised observing this behaviour in nylon strings).
-
If the tuner button isn't tight enough, the tuner can slip, and also buzz. The uncut strings are also prone to buzzing and unpleasant noises. The screws holding the tuner buttons should be tight, but not so tight that the tuners are hard to turn. All the button screws should be checked for tightness, with no string tension and adjusted as necessary, then the strings brought back to tune. The buttons will almost always seem tight under tension, but the worm gear can be partially backed out. The button screw holds that in place. It's not an ideal design, but it's what we have.
-
OK, thanks for those tips. Things seem to have stabilised a bit more so I'm not going to loosen any strings just yet but I'll definitely check all screws at the next occasion. Or have the luthier do that while the instrument is in anyway.
But in general, what's the best way to tune an archtop? Same as I've always heard for a flattop, so from below? Interestingly (to me anyways) is that that's not the way we'd typically tune a violin or cello. There, I found that the best way was from above, "with the string tension" instead of fighting it. Not only does that lead to a better distribution of tension across the 3 string parts, but it also allows you to push in the peg during the final adjustment, getting a better lock.
-
Violins and guitars have different string types, and different tuners. Not even similar. My theory about tuning from below is that the steel strings (and they all have steel cores) are very stiff, and when the tension is loosened by tuning down the strings don't completely straighten, and stay slightly above pitch for some time, until straightened by time or extra tension. Thus if you tune down to pitch, as you play the strings will go flat to some degree. If you tune up, the wrap stays tight on the capstan. This completely ignores the possibility of slop in the worm gear/cog, which is also possible, especially with cheaper tuners and even quality ones, as they wear during use, or if the worm is not firmly seated because of loose button screws. So I tune up. I also give a tug on the string just before tuning up, just to make sure the wrap is tight on the capstan. It's not the only way, but it's the way I do it.
-
True, but maybe not as much as you think Originally Posted by sgosnell
- steel strings for bowed instruments exist (and not just the violin E string). Violins set up for them typically have 4 fine tuners but I cannot recall ever having seen those on cellos.
- strings used on bowed instruments and nylon-strung guitars are very similar, and yet the tuning-from-below principle is applied to the latter too.
- nylon and gut strings are a b**** to change tuning because of their elasticity. Tune them down from what they're "used to" and they'll creep back up for a while. I'd have to sit down and muse over this more quietly to see if that corresponds to what you're saying or not
Anyway, I've taken the habit to pull (a bit) on my (guitar) strings after tuning in order to ascertain they're well set but even without I never noticed any particular problems with them going flat when I tune from above vs. from below. Nylon strings in particular have the additional trait of going sharp when they're heating up (even from vibration); there's a thread about that on the Delcamp forum.
-
Tune your guitar b string sharp, then lower it to pitch. Give the string a pull. I guarantee you that it will go flat. Every time. If you don't pull it, it will go flat more slowly, but it will surely go flat as it's played. Tune it from below, give it a pull, and it stays at pitch, given a proper setup. This is very repeatable for me. I won't argue about violins, celli, or much else because I don't play them and have little experience tuning them. Mandolins do the same as guitars, but to a lesser degree, perhaps because the strings are shorter and don't permit as much stretching.
-
And after the pull? Originally Posted by sgosnell
Proper set-up is the key here. If your strings bind even a little at the nut, tension will be higher on peg-side and your string will go sharp after a while when this settles. A similar thing is bound (pun intended) to happen at the saddle.
-
After the pull, tune it back up to pitch. It's the same for every string, but I find the b is the most prone to it.
I don't find that strings go sharp because of the bend at the nut, but mine don't bend much. Proper headstock geometry is important. Eastman's is poor, and I use a String Butler on that type of headstock. It gives a perfectly straight path through the nut, then around a bearing to the tuner capstan. I think it's a great invention, well worth the money. string-butler - dietrich parts - www.string-butler.com
Reply With Quote
McCoy Tyner style Pentatonic sequence with 5ths,...
Today, 09:35 AM in Improvisation