Bronze/Brass strings and the acoustic archtop

[Stringswinger]

There has been a lot of debate about the best strings for an archtop guitar, whether acoustic or electric and each player must make the best choice for themselves.

I love pure nickel flatwounds on my electric archtops and have used them on my acoustic archtops for years as well. Recently, I decided to put a set of 80/20 strings on one of my 4 acoustic archtops and now have put them on a second. When the next string change is due, I am going to try phospor bronze strings on a third and the fourth will probably get bronze strings as well.

When playing unplugged, the bronze strings add a lot of tone to my ears (though I admit the finger squeak and feel are not things I like,)

For those of you who use monel or nickel strings and do not like bronze, ignore this thread. I understand where you are coming from. For those of you who use bronze, do you favor 80/20 (the original bronze string) or phospor bronze (the 1970's newcomer), and why do you favor one over the other..

Also, are you using hex core or round core strings? John D'Angelico and John D'Addario developed the hex core 80/20 string way back for the archtop guitar. I understand that phospor bronze strings are warmer and last longer than 80/20 and that round core strings have less tension. What do you guys think?

So far, I have tried D'Addario hex core 80/20 and Curt Mangan round core 80/20. Tone wise, I like both and truth be told do not notice much difference in the feel. I have some DR round core Phospor bronze strings to try and also have the Dogal 80/20 round core flatwounds to try.

I am a latecomer to the acoustic archtop/bronze string party and am interested to read your impressions. Thanks in advance!

[Hammertone]

I suggest you add a set of Galli AJF1252 to your "strings to try" list.
-flatwound;
-80/20;
-hex core;
-.012 - .052.

I've been using these for awhile on acoustic archtops and think they're great. It would be interesting to compare the Galli set to the Dogal set.

I generally like PB or 80/20 strings on acoustic archtops, but finger noise is a bit of an issue, and (depending on the guitar) sometimes they sound overly "fizzy."

Another option: I recently picked up a set of D'Addario "Flat-tops" that I have yet to try, so I can't comment on their sound:
-groundwound;
-80/20;
-hex core.
-.012 -.053.
EFT16 Phosphor Bronze Flat Tops | Acoustic Guitar Strings | D'Addario

Oooh, yet another option: I have a set of SIT "Silencers" that also have yet to try. They come in a .013-.056 gauge set as well.
-compression-wound;
-80/20;
-hex core.
-.012 -.052.

[sgosnell]

I've tried both 80/20 and phosphor bronze. I prefer the bronze, because they're not so trebly bright. I'm not a huge fan of either, though. I like nickel, and lately I've started to come around to the attraction of flats on an archtop. I don't like them on laminates, but for a carved spruce top, they work. I still have bronze strings on my 18" carved guitar, and since I have several sets on hand will probably keep it strung with them. The only brass/bronze strings I've tried, IIRC, are D'Addario, which are hex core. I have nothing at all against hex core, and I think it makes a lot of sense. String choice, like most things on guitars, is a personal preference, and can change.

[Cavalier]

Phosphor bronze round wounds, the main difference I've noticed with hex cores is they have more of a signal if a floater is involved. Pretty light, 11s. More tone than 80/20s.

[cmajor9]

I use Thomastik Spectrums on most of my acoustic archtops and really like the sound and feel. They are round core, which gives a slightly softer/lower tension feel than most hex core strings, and they tend to last a long time between string changes. I do use nickel strings on a few particularly bright guitars, and have tried monel strings (mainly the Martin Retros) but gave them up after awhile.

Another bronze string I’ve liked acoustically on some guitars are GHS Vintage Bronze, which are an 85/15 mix on a hex core. They have a slightly different tone which works well on some guitars.

[omphalopsychos]

I prefer bronze strings over any other whenever possible because they produce the greatest volume and the most pleasing acoustic tone to me. Even if I have a floating pickup on my guitar, my preference is to use a pickup that balances well with bronze strings because the acoustic sound of the guitar is very important to me even when amplified.

My preferred brand of Bronze strings is Philippe Bosset. I use both their 80/20 and their PB depending on the guitar. Philippe Bosset strings are wound on a hex core. On my flattops and when I had Epiphone Broadways with Walnut backs, I preferred the PB because to me they helped even out the response of those guitars to a more pleasant tone (i.e. warmer). I also tried PB on my D'Angelico Excel and really liked it.

Another string that I really like and think you would especially like, since you are bothered by the finger noise: Newtone Double Wound Phosphor Bronze. Having played a few of your guitars and knowing your setup, I think it might be worth checking these out. They have a round core and use a two wraps of smaller diameter phosphor bronze rather than a single larger wrap. The double wrap results in less finger noise when moving your fingers up and down. The round core produces a softer feel compared to a hex core. They have a very mellow tone, which helps warm up a bright guitar.

The last set of bronze strings that I would recommend checking out is GHS vintage bronze. They are formulated as 85% copper/15% zinc, which puts them between 80/20 and phosphor bronze (which is 90% copper/10% zinc). These are wrapped around a large hex core, which means they are very stiff feeling. That can be a good thing, depending on your setup. The nice thing about the larger steel cores is that they produce a stronger signal on magnetic pickups. The downside is that these strings die very quickly compared to other ones I've tried.

[floatingpickup]

I prefer bronze strings over any other whenever possible because they produce the greatest volume and the most pleasing acoustic tone to me. Even if I have a floating pickup on my guitar, my preference is to use a pickup that balances well with bronze strings because the acoustic sound of the guitar is very important to me even when amplified.

My preferred brand of Bronze strings is Philippe Bosset. I use both their 80/20 and their PB depending on the guitar. Philippe Bosset strings are wound on a hex core. On my flattops and when I had Epiphone Broadways with Walnut backs, I preferred the PB because to me they helped even out the response of those guitars to a more pleasant tone (i.e. warmer). I also tried PB on my D'Angelico Excel and really liked it.

Another string that I really like and think you would especially like, since you are bothered by the finger noise: Newtone Double Wound Phosphor Bronze. Having played a few of your guitars and knowing your setup, I think it might be worth checking these out. They have a round core and use a two wraps of smaller diameter phosphor bronze rather than a single larger wrap. The double wrap results in less finger noise when moving your fingers up and down. The round core produces a softer feel compared to a hex core. They have a very mellow tone, which helps warm up a bright guitar.

The last set of bronze strings that I would recommend checking out is GHS vintage bronze. They are formulated as 85% copper/15% zinc, which puts them between 80/20 and phosphor bronze (which is 90% copper/10% zinc). These are wrapped around a large hex core, which means they are very stiff feeling. That can be a good thing, depending on your setup. The nice thing about the larger steel cores is that they produce a stronger signal on magnetic pickups. The downside is that these strings die very quickly compared to other ones I've tried.

I have a set of Newtone double-wound strings on my Campellone. Mine aren’t acoustic strings - they are their nickel “Archtop” strings, but I wanted to comment specifically on the feel of double-wound strings. I am a long time flatwound user, but the double-wounds are the next best thing in terms of feel. Very little squeak and resistance, almost as smooth as a flatwound, while still retaining the sustain of a wound string. If you like the sound of Phosphor Bronze strings, but don’t like the feel of a heavy winding, I expect Newtone’s double-wound Acoustic strings would be worth a try.
Keith

[Spook410]

D'Addario nickel bronze balanced tension in 13.5 and 12. Not too zingy when new and balanced tension part feels better to me.

[deacon Mark]

I have used bronze phosphorus in the past ok but I just cannot get past all the string noise. Brass are just way too bright and noisy as they get. I could see the use of brass if all you were trying to do was play loud rhythm and want to cut above in the playing situation. I play mostly chord melody when I play acoustic and the noise is too much and even bronze strings get a bit of a bite. I have never tried bronze flatwounds that almost sounds like an oxymoron.

My preferred set set up is simply pure Nickle and Thomastics or D'addario pure are my choice. I use to bash TI strings because of the cost factor but they sold me on the sound and feel. My archtop with the most volume is the 37 New Yorker and is has enough power that no need for bronze strings to get the biggest punch. The smoother sound of the nickel win for me.

My recent L5c addition is such a bright sounding guitar that I think no way would I want to get near brass or bronze, but I may give it a go sometime. In fact on that particular guitar flatwounds really are the best option at least if you plug in or want to do some solo acoustic. The other requirement is I really want the biggest set of strings with the least amount of tension. I use 12-52 but it varies depending on the guitar. The gage of string has a lot to do with what happens in any set of strings. I find on the 49 D'a I like a .13/14 on top as it rings a bit better and this guitar has a very developed bass register.

Another good string that I don't think they make anymore, was Johnny Gray's set he used on all his recordings. GHS compound wound. They made a set of 12-54 called the 1810's. That string set was what Bill Barker used on all his guitars when they were set up and sent out. They have the great sound of a roundwound but no string noise. My question is if anyone knows of a similar string.

The moral to me is the flattop guitars have the booming bass sound and archtops have the cutting highs. On a flattop the brass bright sound is not projected as strongly as on an archtop, and that is where the difference lies. The great thing about this SS, is that in the grand scheme of things finding out different sounds on your guitar by trying different strings, is way more cost efficient that buying different guitars. It always amazes me when someone brings a guitar in for set up and the strings a dirty, crusty and horrible. Then with a set up and new strings players occasionally comment what a different the guitar sounds so much better. Never underestimate the power of new strings.

One more thought. I actually don't like the sound of brand new strings as well as when they have been played in for a bit maybe 10 hours. They seem to settle in a bit.

[wintermoon]

I don't play acoustic archtops at home much anymore, I'll usually just reach for an electric Super 400 or L-5 and play it w/out an amp, I'm lucky enough to have some that sound pretty darn good w/out amplification.
but back when I played mostly acoustic archies I experimented a lot w/strings and found I liked PB's more than 80/20's just because they sounded warmer. finger noise isn't much of an issue as I can pretty much tune it out [like tv commercials] except in the recording studio

[John A.]

There has been a lot of debate about the best strings for an archtop guitar, whether acoustic or electric and each player must make the best choice for themselves.

I love pure nickel flatwounds on my electric archtops and have used them on my acoustic archtops for years as well. Recently, I decided to put a set of 80/20 strings on one of my 4 acoustic archtops and now have put them on a second. When the next string change is due, I am going to try phospor bronze strings on a third and the fourth will probably get bronze strings as well.

When playing unplugged, the bronze strings add a lot of tone to my ears (though I admit the finger squeak and feel are not things I like,)

For those of you who use monel or nickel strings and do not like bronze, ignore this thread. I understand where you are coming from. For those of you who use bronze, do you favor 80/20 (the original bronze string) or phospor bronze (the 1970's newcomer), and why do you favor one over the other..

Also, are you using hex core or round core strings? John D'Angelico and John D'Addario developed the hex core 80/20 string way back for the archtop guitar. I understand that phospor bronze strings are warmer and last longer than 80/20 and that round core strings have less tension. What do you guys think?

So far, I have tried D'Addario hex core 80/20 and Curt Mangan round core 80/20. Tone wise, I like both and truth be told do not notice much difference in the feel. I have some DR round core Phospor bronze strings to try and also have the Dogal 80/20 round core flatwounds to try.

I am a latecomer to the acoustic archtop/bronze string party and am interested to read your impressions. Thanks in advance!

I use phosphor bronze on flattops (never had an acoustic archtop). IME, they do last longer and sound warmer than 90/20. I haven't experimented with round vs hex core (SFAIK, I've only used hex core). I did, however, try a set of Martin "Flexible Core" strings (which use a thinner core wire and a thicker winding), which I still have on a flattop. It definitely does feel different, but I'm not sure if I like it. I guess I've played with stiffer strings for so long that I'm used to it, and more flexible strings feel kind of off to me. (Ditto for flatwounds; I think I like Chromes better than TI Jazz Swings, though I'm planning on trying them again to see.)

[mr. beaumont]

I do not own an expensive acoustic archtop, but I use Monels on my old Kay, which has a big, in your face sound, though not particularly "nuanced."

I feel these strings warm it up and tone it down just a bit, which is nice for sitting down and playing some rhythm guitar at home.

I'm also using those strings on my Martin flat top. Big fan.

[sys]

Great list of strings to try in this thread, I might have to put in an order for a few of them.

It's funny - I've heard phosphor bronze described as warmer than 80/20 bronze by a gazillion people over the years, and in a lot of the marketing of various string companies. For whatever reason, I just don't hear it that way. I'd almost argue it's the opposite to my ears, and to my definition of bright. I guess we are all different. But as a rule of thumb I much prefer 80/20 on most instruments.

With that being said on my main guitar, an old Levin, I've settled on Martin Retro Monels. I really like their voice, and they have enough volume to work for an acoustic instrument, though they do have a little less cut than 80/20s. Really like the kind of "thud" they get after a few hours of play also, and as a bonus, and they work with a floating pickup when I need it, though they do sound and feel a lot closer to bronze strings than most nickel ones I've tried. They are very tense feeling strings though, arguably more than any other similar gauge I've tried, though could well be my imagination.

[sgosnell]

FWIW, an alloy of copper and zinc is brass. Bronze is an alloy of mainly copper, with other elements including tin, phosphorus, silicon, and others. Phosphor bronze is presumably an alloy of mostly copper and phosphorus, although it's possible there are other elements included. I haven't seen an exact formulation for D'Addario's phosphor bronze, nor for any other string manufacturer. Bronze is harder than brass, for most formulations. Monel is an alloy of mostly nickel, with copper and possibly other elements, and is extremely resistant to corrosion, even by flowing seawater. Exactly what difference all this makes in the sound of the strings is open for debate.

[ThatRhythmMan]

I have been using Elixir Nanoweb Phosphor Bronze for about a year now. I prefer PB over 80/20. The 80/20 strings in particular tend to have a harshness to my ear. The Nanoweb coating seems to take an edge off of bronze strings that I like and string noise is reduced significantly.

[Cunamara]

The Newtone double wrap strings do not appear to be available at my usual US mail order sources, FWIW.

I am currently trying the Martin Retros on my archtop, hoping for a little less bass response through the pickup as my amp, a 5E3 clone, is very bassy. That does seem to have helped with the guitar being a bit less boomy when amplified it. My word, though, the strings (11-52) are a lot stiffer feeling than I am used to (11-50 SITs).

[iim7V7IM7]

Marc, it will honestly come down to experimentation on your part. Your own preferences, attack, choice of pick and guitar’s responsiveness. I can tell you about what has worked for me, but as you know you will need to take your own journey.

I find on some guitars I prefer 80/20 bronze and on others 92/8 phosphor bronze. I also find on some guitars swapping the B and E on 0.053”/0.054”-0.012” with a 0.017” and 0.013” for some extra weight to the notes. Unfortunately, the process of finding out is empirical. 80/20s can only be evaluated after they are on a day or two to loose their initial brightness. You may also benefit from exploring different picks with bronze round wound strings as well.

If quiet glissando moves are important to you, try Elixir Nanoweb 80/20s and PBs. I have come to like D’Addario XTs for both 80/20s and PBs. The slick feel of Elixirs is welcome by some and not with others. The D’Addarios feel like normal strings which I prefer.

They are treated plated with an ultra thin deposition of a nickel coating including the unwound strings to slow down oxidation and corrosion. They also intune well. Untreated 80/20s only last a week or two for me, but these D’Addarios last 6-8 weeks whereas the Elixirs last up to 12 weeks.

[Stringswinger]

Thanks for the replies guys.

I have 4 acoustic archtops. Two are dark, one is bright and one is in between (but leans on the dark side). I foresee 80/20's on the dark ones and PB on the bright one and some experimentation on the in between one (perhaps flat wound 80/20's?). I will try a bunch of different strings (this thread has brought some great choices to light and I suspect a lot of acoustic archtop players will find this thread useful).

I am trying to stay with 12's as I believe lighter strings will not drive the top enough and heavier strings are too tough on my 64 year old fingers. And round cores may also be the ticket for these aging fingers, but I am going to give some of the hex core strings a try.

Deacon Mark nailed it when he wrote that buying different strings is cheaper than buying a different guitar when you want a different sound.

[John A.]

FWIW, an alloy of copper and zinc is brass. Bronze is an alloy of mainly copper, with other elements including tin, phosphorus, silicon, and others. Phosphor bronze is presumably an alloy of mostly copper and phosphorus, although it's possible there are other elements included. I haven't seen an exact formulation for D'Addario's phosphor bronze, nor for any other string manufacturer. Bronze is harder than brass, for most formulations. Monel is an alloy of mostly nickel, with copper and possibly other elements, and is extremely resistant to corrosion, even by flowing seawater. Exactly what difference all this makes in the sound of the strings is open for debate.

From the elixir strings FAQ:

"What is the difference between Acoustic 80/20 Bronze and Phosphor Bronze?
Acoustic 80/20 Bronze and Phosphor Bronze guitar strings offer players different tone options. Both string types are popular and therefore selecting the right strings is a matter of personal preference. Here's what we can tell you:

80/20 Bronze acoustic guitar strings offer a bright, bell-like tone. The 80/20 bronze name is a misnomer in the music industry as the metal wrap wire composition is 80% copper and 20% zinc, which is brass. Bronze is technically an alloy of copper and tin.
Phosphor Bronze acoustic guitar strings offer a tone with both warmth and sparkle. The strings are named after the wrap wire material, which is a copper alloy wrap wire with roughly 8% tin and a small amount of Phosphorous."

So, yes, what gets called 80/20 bronze should just be called brass, and what gets called phosphor bronze is actually correctly named.

[Stringswinger]

From the elixir strings FAQ:

"What is the difference between Acoustic 80/20 Bronze and Phosphor Bronze?
Acoustic 80/20 Bronze and Phosphor Bronze guitar strings offer players different tone options. Both string types are popular and therefore selecting the right strings is a matter of personal preference. Here's what we can tell you:

80/20 Bronze acoustic guitar strings offer a bright, bell-like tone. The 80/20 bronze name is a misnomer in the music industry as the metal wrap wire composition is 80% copper and 20% zinc, which is brass. Bronze is technically an alloy of copper and tin.
Phosphor Bronze acoustic guitar strings offer a tone with both warmth and sparkle. The strings are named after the wrap wire material, which is a copper alloy wrap wire with roughly 8% tin and a small amount of Phosphorous."

So, yes, what gets called 80/20 bronze should just be called brass, and what gets called phosphor bronze is actually correctly named.

Good information. I edited the title of the thread to reflect this.

[Stringswinger]

The Newtone double wrap strings do not appear to be available at my usual US mail order sources, FWIW.

I am currently trying the Martin Retros on my archtop, hoping for a little less bass response through the pickup as my amp, a 5E3 clone, is very bassy. That does seem to have helped with the guitar being a bit less boomy when amplified it. My word, though, the strings (11-52) are a lot stiffer feeling than I am used to (11-50 SITs).

I tried the Martin Retros. I found them to be very stiff and my fingers felt the windings more than the D'Addarios, Curt Mangans, Thomastic-Infelds, DR, Savarez and Ernie Ball strings that I have used. Tone-wise, they are very similar, IMO to TI Bebops (round-wound), but the TI's feel a lot better on the fingers.

[Stringswinger]

I don't play acoustic archtops at home much anymore, I'll usually just reach for an electric Super 400 or L-5 and play it w/out an amp, I'm lucky enough to have some that sound pretty darn good w/out amplification.
but back when I played mostly acoustic archies I experimented a lot w/strings and found I liked PB's more than 80/20's just because they sounded warmer. finger noise isn't much of an issue as I can pretty much tune it out [like tv commercials] except in the recording studio

I have TI flats on my L-5's and my Super 400. Unplugged, they don't hold a candle to the 80/20 strung DA's. But plugged in, the Gibson's rule.

[sgosnell]

The D'Addario Pure Nickel are actually not pure nickel, but a variety of Monel, an alloy of nickel, copper, and other trace elements. I'm not sure where I read that, though. The D'Addario website has changed, and a quick search didn't turn it up. But I'm pretty sure no one uses actual pure nickel for strings, it's always an alloy of some other elements.

[bluejaybill]

I would consider using a bronze type string on my acoustic archtop (Campellone) but I am concerned about losing the electric tone. I seem to remember that some are made with this in mind, anyone know about them?

[gitman]

Lots of very useful info in this thread, thank you Gentlemen !
This coincides with me finding a clip on the Koentopp site where one of his superb guitars is demonstrated with 3 different "pickup" solutions and various combinations thereof : a ribbon mic in front of the guitar, the pure transducer signal (a Barbera piezo bridge-insert) and the magnetic signal from a KA PAF floater. This is my very personal opinion and my personal preference : the ever-present finger and - to a lesser degree - pick-noises so totally disturb the sonic impression to my ears that I cannot really appreciate the full potential of this instrument , it's only hinted at what might be possible. The brilliance is over-represented and the choice of strings has a lot to do with this I think. The player's touch, his light picking and his choice of pick all play a role too. A less brilliant string could surely bring forth more warmth and fundamentals in the tones from this guitar. It would also be very interesting to hear what a mic some 6 or 8 feet away would pick up, how much sound the guitar can put out for a listener in an intimate but still more conventional situation...
Several similar examples can be heard on the Trenier site - the acoustic recordings have a very bright sound, the string and pick noises are very present and apparently no ambient mics
were employed. It doesn't sound pretty or inviting/enticing to me....
If I were the engineer responsible for the sonic presentation of such fine instruments I would for one use at least 3 fine microphones (incl. some distant/ambient mics), choose an acoustically neutral room, have the player(s) use different picks, have them play with minimum to maximum volume and finally choose music of different styles and genres. Two versions of the same tune on the same guitar strung with different strings would be the cherry on the cake ....
But that's just me and my wishful thinking, you will surely have very different opinions and preferences. I do not own a purely acoustic archtop at the moment since I have no (professional) use for one but if I should one lucky day I will look for one with a balanced tone, a strong fundamental and if possible I will try it with several different types of strings before a final decision is made. The info re the various string types in this thread will help me decide !