Older Hofner Archtops?

[The Executive Committee]

I recently acquired a "1960 Hofner Model 457 President" (description according to the seller) that needed some TLC and a few minor repairs, so I've been researching 50s-60s Höfners to become better educated about these guitars. My 457 has a single Höfner "Diamond Logo" Type 510 pickup with a standard Höfner rectangular control panel that has three tone switches and one Teacup volume knob. It's quite obvious that whomever built this particular control panel was either under pressure for time on the clock or perhaps a bit drunk or more likely a combination of both. The first switch labeled "RHYTHM / SOLO" works fine and provides a subtle boost when switched from rhythm position to solo position. The second and third switches labeled "BASS ON" and "TREBLE ON" were installed reversed and both are upside down. At first I thought something was really wrong with the electronics, but after testing the signal through an amp, it's obvious the bass switch functions as a treble boost and the treble switch functions as a mids-bass boost. Both switches are also installed upside down, that is to say when they're in the "ON" position relative to the control panel they're actually off, and vice-verse.

One of the TLC items I had to fix was the badly warped pearloid pickguard. It was literally curled from end-to-end like a potato chip and the mounting nail that was supposed to be inserted in the ebony bridge base was not reaching far enough over, so the pickguard was flopping against the body when I first got the guitar. After a couple hours of research, I came across a tip on reforming celluloid by putting it in boiling water, letting the celluloid soften for a few minutes, and then reforming the item to fit whatever contour was needed. I put the pickguard face down in a large flat Pyrex glass pan, poured boiling water over it to soften the celluloid, and then put 8 chopsticks across the pickguard to evenly distribute the weight of two water jugs placed on top of the chopsticks. Let it all cool and stabilize. Then I checked to see if the pickguard wanted to curl up again, which it did a little bit, but not so bad as it was when I started. I then repeated the boiling water step + chopsticks + water bottles stack. Twice. Left the water bottles sit on the pickguard overnight. Now it's flat as it was in 1960.

[Hammertone]

That is a lovely-looking guitar.
But, it is not a 1960 Hofner 457/S/V1.
It appears to be a later Hofner 456/S/V1.
This is mainly because the top plate is laminated maple as opposed to laminated spruce.

S refers to the presence of a cutaway;
E typically refers to the presence of a pickup or pickups (E1, E2, E3);
V is substituted for E when the guitar is equipped with a Hofner Vibrato unit.

The hardware on the guitar, specifically the pickup mounting frame and the bridge, are from the mid-1960s, not 1960. So, the guitar has either had newer hardware installed or is from the mid-1960s.
There is a date stamped or written on the underside of the top plate that should clear that up - closer to 1964/66 than 1960.

The layers of purfling are also a tell - your guitar does not have the same layers of binding of either a 457 of President. While the 456 binding/purflig is typically the same as that of the 457, sometimes it is a bit different because, honestly, the folks at Hofner really didn't care that much, especially after a few beers at lunch. Today, we call that "vintage charm."

The switches on the control plate are correctly wired, but labelled in an entirely counter-intuitive manner. I take it that you are not German - when it comes to German guitar design, sometimes there are some peculiar touches when viewed from an American guitar design point of view, to put it mildly.

[The Executive Committee]

Hammertone,

Thanks for sharing your wisdom on this topic.

• Can you please send me links to the information that you have on 60s Höfner President guitars?

• How can you tell that my guitar's top is laminated maple and not laminated spruce?

Aside from the good fellow who sold me this guitar had posted it as a 1960 Höfner Model 457 President, I've been referring to various online references in the effort to establish that my Höfner is a 1960 Model 457 President. But it could very well be a Model 456...from 1965...but I don't yet know for sure.

1960s Hofner Archtop
1960s Hofner Archtop | ChasingGuitars

Steve Russell's Vintage Hofner Site
Hofner Guitar Miscellany Home Page

Die Höfnering (collecting Hofner vintage guitars)
Vintage Guitars Info - Collecting Hofner vintage guitars

My Höfner sure looks to me like a 1960 base model that had some upgrades at one point in its long life, such as the Höfner V2 Tremolo tailpiece and the Type 72-23 Micromatic Bridge. I can't find a date stamp or handwritten date on the underside of the guitar top. I looked inside the guitar body for an hour today with a light and a dentist's mirror. All I could see was what looked like a faint "6" ... but that might just be a small knot in the wood grain.

I read an article that explains how to date a 60s Höfner by reading the stamp on the control panel's brown fibreboard base. FINDING YOUR HOFNER My Höfner has "250K 435" stamped on the fibreboard base. Interpreting the code from the article, my guess is that would indicate the circuit board was assembled during the 43rd week of 1965. Or 1955.

So the mystery continues...

[Hammertone]

Hammertone,
Thanks for sharing your wisdom on this topic.
• Can you please send me links to the information that you have on 60s Höfner President guitars?
• How can you tell that my guitar's top is laminated maple and not laminated spruce?
Aside from the good fellow who sold me this guitar had posted it as a 1960 Höfner Model 457 President, I've been referring to various online references in the effort to establish that my Höfner is a 1960 Model 457 President. But it could very well be a Model 456...from 1965...but I don't yet know for sure.
1960s Hofner Archtop
1960s Hofner Archtop | ChasingGuitars
Steve Russell's Vintage Hofner Site
Hofner Guitar Miscellany Home Page
Die Höfnering (collecting Hofner vintage guitars)
Vintage Guitars Info - Collecting Hofner vintage guitars
My Höfner sure looks to me like a 1960 base model that had some upgrades at one point in its long life, such as the Höfner V2 Tremolo tailpiece and the Type 72-23 Micromatic Bridge. I can't find a date stamp or handwritten date on the underside of the guitar top. I looked inside the guitar body for an hour today with a light and a dentist's mirror. All I could see was what looked like a faint "6" ... but that might just be a small knot in the wood grain.
I read an article that explains how to date a 60s Höfner by reading the stamp on the control panel's brown fibreboard base. FINDING YOUR HOFNER My Höfner has "250K 435" stamped on the fibreboard base. Interpreting the code from the article, my guess is that would indicate the circuit board was assembled during the 43rd week of 1965. Or 1955.

So the mystery continues...

Linking is not necessary, since most of what's out there was written by me or is based on what I wrote. I helped Steve Russell set up his site, have posted about it all since the internet, uh, started, and have moderated a few Hofner forums that have come and gone. Just ask me questions here and I'd be happy to share what I know.

Maple vs. spruce? The two species look quite different and it's easy to tell the difference once one has seen a few examples of each. These are lots of pix of these types of wood on the internet that show the differences.

"my guess is that would indicate the circuit board was assembled during the 43rd week of 1965. Or 1955." 1955 would be a neat trick, since Hofner did not start using the "radio control" panel until 1957. The code can only mean the 43rd week of 1965. No guesswork involved.

The person who sold you the guitar didn't get the description quite right. No big deal, since these are not valuable guitars. As well, the 457 designation is specific to guitars made for markets other than the UK, and the President designation is specific to guitars made only for Selmer, who were the UK distributors. A 457 (or 456, in your case) has block inlays. A President has triple dot inlays. There is no such thing a 457 President - it's just a convenient way to point out the parallelism between the two models.

It's dead easy to determine if the vibrato hardware is original to the guitar - if not, you will find evidence of additional holes from the installation of the original tailpiece.

"It's quite obvious that whomever built this particular control panel was either under pressure for time on the clock or perhaps a bit drunk or more likely a combination of both." You got that right!

[The Executive Committee]

Well it seems I have a unique Höfner mashup 456/457/S/V1 from 1960-65. All put together on the guitar, there are parts that seem to come from 1960 (fretboard and headstock ornamentation), parts that seem to come from 1961 (Höfner "Diamond Logo" Type 510 pickup and surround), 1963 (Höfner V2 Tremolo Tailpiece), 1964 (Höfner Type 72-23 Micromatic Bridge), combinations of parts on the same production guitar that I can't find any documentation for (original Höfner V2 Tremolo Tailpiece + original Type 72-23 Micromatic Bridge), and a Höfner control panel that dates to 1965.

I'm just going to quote this column – about 1/4 of the way down the page:
Visitors' Gallery - European & US Archtops
HOFNER MODEL 456
When Hofner re-commenced production in Möhrendorf, Bavaria after WW2 in 1949, the 456 was one of the archtop models offered. A very similar archtop had been produced with that model designation before the onset of the war when Hofner were based at Schönbach, Bohemia.
The 456 was intended to be Hofner's mid-range archtop, utilizing nicely flamed maple for the body back and sides, with a maple top. A good standard of ornamentation was used on the guitar, with binding/multi-purfling around body top & back edges and soundholes, with the rosewood neck also bound. Pearloid strips were used for the fretmarkers, and on all but the very earliest guitars, a pearloid/tortoishell/pearloid celluloid fascia covered the front of the headstock.
There can be problems differentiating between the 455, 456, and 457 models, particularly as Hofner seems to have continually revised the detail cosmetics of these models over the years. The main basic difference between the 456 and the slightly later 457 is that the 456 had a maple body top and the 457 had a spruce top. Both the 455 and the 456 had maple tops, but the ornamentation on the 456 was of a higher standard than the 455. For example, the 455 was not provided with binding to the neck initially, though later examples (after the demise of the 456) did gain this feature.
Initially the 456 was only supplied in brown sunburst finish. Later, a natural blonde finish was available, and some examples even have a red-burst finish.
As with the rest of the Hofner range, the 456 was available from c1954 with the option of factory fitted electrics.
The 456 disappeared from the range in 1962, by which stage the 457 model would seem to have taken over as Hofner's principle mid-range archtop.

This last highlight would indicate that if my guitar was built in 1965 it would be a 457 Model, not a 456.

I'm still not convinced the BASS and TREBLE switches in the control panel on my 1960-65 456/457 weren't assembled backwards and upside down.

Love this old gal. Lots of character for a 60-something. Thoroughly modern.

[thelostboss]

Another Hofner video

[The Executive Committee]

Here are closeups of two guitar tops. The first one is my 60s Höfner 456/457(?) and the second one is my 2017 Taylor 414. The Taylor top is made from solid Engelmann Spruce. I'm no authority on tone woods, but the Höfner sure looks like Spruce (which would be on a 457 top) and not Maple (which would be on a 456 top). The other detail on my Höfner that tells me the top wood is different from the sides & back wood is that there is no finish checking on the top, but there's lots of finish checking on the sides & back.

Opinions? Anyone out there care to share their knowledge regarding visual differences between Maple vs Spruce on an antique guitar top?

[TommiHoo]

Hi all!

I just bought this Hofner that used to belong to a jazz player and had last been played somewhere in 1965.
This beauty ended with me by accident as a friend of mine who just bought a new house was offered this guitar by the seller of the property.
As my friend does not play the guitar he tipped me to go and check the guitar, and so I did...

Now I can't seem to find any model to match this, so I was wondering if somebody here is an expert on the matter?

The pickups alongside with the electronics have been added in later, and there is a matching F -hole under them in the body.
I must say it plays astonishingly well, and the sound is really nice. I think I'm going to keep this one.

Thanks in advance for those helpful!

[Hammertone]

Cool old Hofner!
-Model 450/S from the early-mid 1960s
-excellent, dead-stock condition
-excellent (and heavy) aftermarket FUMA pickup system added to it
-neck pickup is not a FUMA - possibly swapped in by a retailer, or later, no idea

-Truss rod means 1960 or later
-Hofner "Micromatic" bridge is an upgrade from standard Model 450 hardware - probably added with the pickup system.
-the whole thing was probably ordered that way and configured by the retailer.

Despite being cosmetically at the bottom of Hofner's range of @16" archtops, the 450 is functionally identical to the fancier-looking 455 or 456 models - laminated maple top plate, back plate and rims. Perfectly capable of functioning as a pro-level guitar.

I recommend that you do not change any of the hardware on the guitar, otherwise the value of the instrument (it's not worth a lot, but, still...) will be reduced.

[Flat]

Somebody say expert? Hammer's da' man.

[TommiHoo]

Thank you so much for your detailed and insightful answer, truly appreciated! I most certainly stumbled to the right place in search for clues about this guitar

I will definitely keep this like it is and take it to good use again.
I'm playing this through Vox AC30HW2 and I think it sounds very good after really digging into it, sweet!

[QsDuesBlues]

If I ever run into an old Verithin for the right price, I’ll grab it, just for the looks:



(Different beast than the modern Verythin - with y - these are fully hollow).

OT no doubt but..........

This Hofner model and colour was the very first electric guitar I ever saw and heard being played 'in the flesh' - as an 11-year old schoolboy (an impossibility to remain so long in aural ignorance these days....). My school's concert (back in 1964 I think) featured among others the school's own pop band 'Heavy Water' (it was after all the era of 'Ban the Bomb' following the Aldermaston anti-nuclear marches).

I do remember that the Hofner both looked and sounded great !

[QsDuesBlues]

mo foster also wrote a great book called seventeen watts ? (the power of a watkins dominator amp)...about the early uk rock/session players..great stories, interviews and pics





cheers

Neatomic forgot to mention that the original title of this excellent little book was quite a bit longer than later editions -

It was........."Do We Really Need 17 Watts?"

I guess the publishers - after the first print run - though it was too long, too obscure or just too plain weird to gain a buying audience. But for guitar aficionados who go that far back - to memories of playing in church halls and youth clubs - that's how it was !!

[JFranck]

Hi all!

I just bought this Hofner that used to belong to a jazz player and had last been played somewhere in 1965.
This beauty ended with me by accident as a friend of mine who just bought a new house was offered this guitar by the seller of the property.
As my friend does not play the guitar he tipped me to go and check the guitar, and so I did...

Now I can't seem to find any model to match this, so I was wondering if somebody here is an expert on the matter?

The pickups alongside with the electronics have been added in later, and there is a matching F -hole under them in the body.
I must say it plays astonishingly well, and the sound is really nice. I think I'm going to keep this one.

Thanks in advance for those helpful!

Usualy a Fuma plate has two symetrical PUs . This time in neck position is a KJELL .
They were made in Sweden and fitted in neck position on high-end Levin guitars.
Yours seems to be in very good condition !

[Nigel.Teh]

Hello! Lurker on the forum that finally registered to post...

Here's another mystery to add to the list of "Older Hofner archtops".

I recently came across an old Hofner in my area. Owner claims that
- it was made in the 1950s and that he bought it in an antiques shop in the 60s
- the original finish was tarnished so he stripped the paint, but never found the time to redo it
- there is no serial or model number in the f-holes
- he has not done any major repairs, and simply wrapped it in plastic for the past 30 years as no one plays it at home

I'm weighing out whether to pursue further and meet or ask for more photos. In the meantime, a few things stuck out to me:
- the three-piece back seems out of place for the era (please correct me if wrong)
- size/shape wise, was wondering if it was a Senator from the era. However, the headstocks and tailpieces from many other vintage Hofners tend to be much more ornate than this.
- the presence of a truss rod seems to suggest its 60s onwards

Curious if anyone has thoughts on these?

(low quality for now) Pics below

[gkorm]

Hello! Lurker on the forum that finally registered to post...

Here's another mystery to add to the list of "Older Hofner archtops".

I recently came across an old Hofner in my area. Owner claims that
- it was made in the 1950s and that he bought it in an antiques shop in the 60s
- the original finish was tarnished so he stripped the paint, but never found the time to redo it
- there is no serial or model number in the f-holes
- he has not done any major repairs, and simply wrapped it in plastic for the past 30 years as no one plays it at home

I'm weighing out whether to pursue further and meet or ask for more photos. In the meantime, a few things stuck out to me:
- the three-piece back seems out of place for the era (please correct me if wrong)
- size/shape wise, was wondering if it was a Senator from the era. However, the headstocks and tailpieces from many other vintage Hofners tend to be much more ornate than this.
- the presence of a truss rod seems to suggest its 60s onwards

Curious if anyone has thoughts on these?

(low quality for now) Pics below

The back of the body and neck looks like one of Hofner's classical guitars. I haven't seen anything quite like this online before, but I have seen a few of their rare nylon string/"crossover" creations. I'm only guessing that this is meant for steel strings. Looks like it could be a great find!

[Hammertone]

Because the guitar has a trussrod, it was definitely not made in the 1950s. It was made in the 60s.

The tuning machines are not original and were installed at a later date.

The neck has been repaired. Note the additional two dots on the fretboard between frets 12 and 13. They probably cover up two dowels or screws that were used to re-attach or reinforce the neck where the guitar heel may have cracked or loosened.

Höfner did not mark serial or model numbers on their domestically distributed archtop guitars in the '50s and '60s. Some individual distributors, like Selmer in the UK, Sorkin in the US, and so forth, requested labels and/or serial numbers.

The three-piece back is interesting but not that surprising. The back is laminated (all post-war Höfner archtops have laminated backs except for the flagship Höfner Chancellor model made from 2003 to @2020) and was probably originally painted black. The three-piece arrangement was most likely a cost-saving measure to use some veneer that was odd-sized, or to sort out a laminated back with some damage on it. Or, it might be a later repair.

The Senator model typically has a white rectangular label identifying it, along with a serial number. That label may have been removed, fallen off or was never installed. The guitar has some general features of a 450 or 455, the headstocks of which became quite plain in the 1960s. There is no shortage of Höfner archtops from the 1960s that were assembled from various leftover parts, given that market for archtop guitars largely disappeared in the later 1960s. Höfner put together some of these themselves, but many were assembled by folks who purchased loose guitar parts from the company.

More photos would be great, as there's not enough information in the posted photos to get more specific.

[Webby]

Hello! Lurker on the forum that finally registered to post...

Here's another mystery to add to the list of "Older Hofner archtops".

I recently came across an old Hofner in my area. Owner claims that
- it was made in the 1950s and that he bought it in an antiques shop in the 60s
- the original finish was tarnished so he stripped the paint, but never found the time to redo it
- there is no serial or model number in the f-holes
- he has not done any major repairs, and simply wrapped it in plastic for the past 30 years as no one plays it at home

I'm weighing out whether to pursue further and meet or ask for more photos. In the meantime, a few things stuck out to me:
- the three-piece back seems out of place for the era (please correct me if wrong)
- size/shape wise, was wondering if it was a Senator from the era. However, the headstocks and tailpieces from many other vintage Hofners tend to be much more ornate than this.
- the presence of a truss rod seems to suggest its 60s onwards

Curious if anyone has thoughts on these?

It looks a lot like my mid/end 50s Höfner 450. F-holes, body-shape, tailpiece and the fretboard-markers match up. I think the bridge might also be original, but it's hard to identify under that wrap. I find the markers at the 13th fret kinda bizarre though, and can't remember to have ever seen those.
These were cheaper plywood guitars, but they're still kinda cool.
My guitar doesn't have a trussrod, and a different headstock (without binding), but a quick google-search showed some examples of other 450s with the same headstock as the guitar in question.
I'm no expert for these guitars, but I think I read somewhere that the presence of a trussrod places it post 1960, but I might be wrong about that.
I don't think I've ever seen a 3-piece back on one of those

Paul


EDIT: Hammertone beat me to it! And he's THE expert for these guitars!

[Davethealbum]

Hi all. I’m new to this forum and just taken delivery of what I’m led to believe is an approximately 60 year old, brand new body and neck of a thin bodied Hofner Senator. id love to find a little more info on it before I start its build/restoration. any info would be very much appreciated! ?

[Flowboy]

Hi, I realise this is an old thread!
Your Hofner, although the grain is distinct, appears to be more like Maple to me. I could be wrong but... Between the growth / grain lines are tiny spots not seen in spruce. From flawed ancient recollection these are likely to be xylem cell formations more easily seen in hardwoods. Your Taylor spruce top does not show this detail. Later Hofner tops after 1960 are mostly laminated spruce rather than solid, then later they were maple laminate.
It's slightly unusual for laminates to show clear growth rings, like quarter-sawn planks, but possibly Hofner used very fine 1/4 sawn timber, (to imitate solid) to laminate, before moving to the most common method: Laminated timber (plywood) is usually veneered via
rotational cutters so the growth rings do not show, or rather are sliced through, usually giving those widely spaced "coast lines" you can see on many early basic plywood guitars, later archtops, semis or solid bodies etc.