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  1. #76

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    no i
    Quote Originally Posted by ArchtopHeaven
    Scandinavian jazz musicians are exceptionally talented. I put it down to the long dark winters. For me the future of Jazz in Europe has been with the Swedish and Norwegian players and composers.
    They have unique style which I find very interesting, due to the melancholic folk music it's often fused with.

    Kenny Wheeler went on to capture that mood in the US but it;ps always been a part of the Scandinavian sound ime.

    Lars Guilin was aa fantastic composer and baritone player who could swing like hell and fuse American Jazz with Scandinavian folk music.


    Later on bands like Fattigfolket did well pushing those ideas further. I saw them live once at one off the best Jazz clubs in the world, Glen Millers bar in Stockholm. I've never forgotten that performance.
    I like a lot of Scandy players as well. Distinct jazz tradition up there of course.

    Actually Kenny was based in London for most of his life, originally Canadian. Glad I caught him before he passed, was playing right up to the end. Never got to play with him, although I do know a lot of players who did regularly. He did play with a lot of top US musicians so I can see why someone would think he was based in the US.

    In terms of the future of jazz in Europe - the most original jazz guitarist I have heard for about 20 years is Reinier Baas, who is Dutch. He is equal technically to any of the contemporary NY players but unlike them seems to have escaped from Kurt’s long shadow.

    I like a lot of Dutch musicians atm, for some reason, have been really enjoying Nora Fischer’s reinventions of baroque song with electric guitar (she also worked with Baas on some crazy jazz opera he wrote.) I think there’s a healthy irreverence maybe?

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  3. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    I like a lot of Scandy players as well. Distinct jazz tradition up there of course.

    Actually Kenny was based in London for most of his life, originally Canadian. Glad I caught him before he passed, was playing right up to the end. He did play with a lot of top US musicians so I can see why someone would think he was based in the US.

    In terms of the future of jazz in Europe - the most original jazz guitarist I have heard for about 20 years is Reinier Baas, who is Dutch. He is equal technically to any of the contemporary NY players but unlike them seems to have escaped from Kurt’s long shadow.

    I like a lot of Dutch musicians atm, for some reason, have been really enjoying Nora Fischer’s reinventions of baroque song with electric guitar (she also worked with Baas on some crazy jazz opera he wrote.) I think there’s a healthy irreverence maybe?
    Agreed.

  4. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchtopHeaven
    Agreed.
    but I’m intrigued- where in the world are you based, and how did you get into John Martyn, one of my favourites?

  5. #79

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    I'm in South East England. I've seen John live 3 times. Unfortunately not in the early 70's or during Grace And Danger.

    John Martin had what could be argued the greatest male voice ever recorded.


    Sundays Child is my favourite album. I spent most of my early 20's trying to play and sound like John.

    The guy I bought my Campellone off in Scotland went to school with John and lived across the road from him.

    What about yourself?

  6. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    I wonder if there’s just not many self taught (or rather community taught) players in the US now? Mostly jazz is built around the colleges these days it seems to me… (NYC is kept going tourism.) Americans I’ve spoken to tend to be very into the college thing…. (Americans also tend to assume that if something doesn’t exist in the US it doesn’t exist.)

    while in Europe you still find non college trained players especially in ‘gypsy jazz’ but even among people from outside the ethnic group who play that music.

    Friends of mine talk about who Manouche players would cut visiting American stars at jams… (I’ve not been to Samois, never been able to make it down) - it has to be seen to believed. Ridiculous level of skill and virtuosity. The level where you are is crazy, some of my favourite jazz guitarists and not just the gypsy players….

    of course, theres something special about NYC players - the energy and the swing is unique - - but that comes from being in NYC and being around that vibe all the time.
    Plenty of jazz guitar talent in continental Europe, especially in France, Italy, the Netherlands, Scandinavia and Italy. So many immensely skilled players with great taste and monster chops. In my small country alone MVI, JVR and Reinier Baas. We are talking about a few dozen of world class players here on the continent, so not just good ones. Most of them pretty much under the radar though in the US. It’s dazzling really, how good some of these guys are.

    DB


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  7. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchtopHeaven
    I'm in South East England. I've seen John live 3 times. Unfortunately not in the early 70's or during Grace And Danger.

    John Martin had what could be argued the greatest male voice ever recorded.


    Sundays Child is my favourite album. I spent most of my early 20's trying to play and sound like John.

    The guy I bought my Campellone off in Scotland went to school with John and lived across the road from him.

    What about yourself?
    I only seen John once back in the 90s. Solo, and in a small club, it was fantastic. You could mashed for free at those gigs which was always a bonus, too. My dads record collection was my intro to music mostly, some my earliest musical memories are hearing ‘Small Hours.’

    I was wondering, cos you said ‘school’ rather than ‘college’ or ‘uni’ which made me think you were American (but I often use US English here when I want to be understood by the colonials) so I thought it was strange you knew about John as no one knows him much in the US unlike Richard Thompson who obviously lives in LA.

    I’m getting quite into Inside Out at the moment; probably is most obviously Miles influenced album I would say. I think he said he was really into ‘in a Silent Way’ (Danny Thompson was a bit of bop nazi and took some convincing apparently.)

  8. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    I wonder if there’s just not many self taught (or rather community taught) players in the US now? Mostly jazz is built around the colleges these days it seems to me… (NYC is kept going tourism.) Americans I’ve spoken to tend to be very into the college thing…. (Americans also tend to assume that if something doesn’t exist in the US it doesn’t exist.)

    while in Europe you still find non college trained players especially in ‘gypsy jazz’ but even among people from outside the ethnic group who play that music.

    Friends of mine talk about who Manouche players would cut visiting American stars at jams… (I’ve not been to Samois, never been able to make it down) - it has to be seen to believed. Ridiculous level of skill and virtuosity. The level where you are is crazy, some of my favourite jazz guitarists and not just the gypsy players….

    of course, theres something special about NYC players - the energy and the swing is unique - - but that comes from being in NYC and being around that vibe all the time.
    In the US, it's hard (though not impossible) to make a decent living without at least some post-secondary education, nearly all of which is called and accredited as "college" (including a lot that might more accurately be thought of as trade school). That's true of nearly every occupation, including "musician." So there you are, a teenager in a middle-class home hoping to stay in the middle class, or in a poor one hoping to move into the middle class. Every day, every adult in your life tells you you have to go to college. Your parents tell you you can be a musician, and they'll support you (to the extent they can), but only if you go to college. So you go to college. There is nothing in college you cannot learn by some other means. But as a matter of the way the society functions, you go to college. That was less true 50-75 years ago, but it's true now.

    Arguably, NYC is not part of the US (a joke, not a joke, by a native), it is affected by the same trend toward college as that large continent off the coast of Manhattan. Talking specifically about jazz, no matter how much formal theory you study, learning to play it is still an oral/apprenticeship tradition, except that now that tradition (or a portion of it, anyway) and early-career performance opportunities are more within institutions than on the bandstand/road. I would guess that the majority of jazz musicians under age, what?, 70? have music degrees and/or post-secondary studies in some other subject but also studied and played music in college. There might be a college or two in NYC. OTOH, in much of Europe, secondary education goes past age 18 and includes vocational study and certification and/or leads to post-secondary studies in institutions that aren't (in the US sense of the word) colleges. So Europeans don't "go to college" as much as Americans do, but they're still in school until age 21; they just don't call it "college".

    Anyway to the whole question of knowing "theory", I think it's more a matter of informal vs formal theory. You can't play jazz without having some organized knowledge of harmony. But that knowledge doesn't have to be formal academic knowledge. Just like you don't have to be an architect or engineer to design and build a building. you can be crafts-person whose knowledge is nearly all oral tradition and rules of thumb rather than formal architectural theory and engineering. But it's knowledge nonetheless.

  9. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by John A.
    In the US, it's hard (though not impossible) to make a decent living without at least some post-secondary education, nearly all of which is called and accredited as "college" (including a lot that might more accurately be thought of as trade school). That's true of nearly every occupation, including "musician." So there you are, a teenager in a middle-class home hoping to stay in the middle class, or in a poor one hoping to move into the middle class. Every day, every adult in your life tells you you have to go to college. Your parents tell you you can be a musician, and they'll support you (to the extent they can), but only if you go to college. So you go to college. There is nothing in college you cannot learn by some other means. But as a matter of the way the society functions, you go to college. That was less true 50-75 years ago, but it's true now.

    Arguably, NYC is not part of the US (a joke, not a joke, by a native), it is affected by the same trend toward college as that large continent off the coast of Manhattan. Talking specifically about jazz, no matter how much formal theory you study, learning to play it is still an oral/apprenticeship tradition, except that now that tradition (or a portion of it, anyway) and early-career performance opportunities are more within institutions than on the bandstand/road. I would guess that the majority of jazz musicians under age, what?, 70? have music degrees and/or post-secondary studies in some other subject but also studied and played music in college. There might be a college or two in NYC. OTOH, in much of Europe, secondary education goes past age 18 and includes vocational study and certification and/or leads to post-secondary studies in institutions that aren't (in the US sense of the word) colleges. So Europeans don't "go to college" as much as Americans do, but they're still in school until age 21; they just don't call it "college".
    Well it's not that so much as - I mean the guy who I played with last week went to college to study furniture making IIRC. He also happens to be a burning jazz guitar player who works professionally more than most, and until recently didn't know anything about theory. While not particularly common, I wouldn't say his story is THAT unusual. (I mean I don't have a music degree either, and I know quite a few excellent working jazz players who never went.)

    I don't get the impression there's too many like that in the states, at least from interactions I've had.

    Anyway to the whole question of knowing "theory", I think it's more a matter of informal vs formal theory. You can't play jazz without having some organized knowledge of harmony. But that knowledge doesn't have to be formal academic knowledge. Just like you don't have to be an architect or engineer to design and build a building. you can be crafts-person whose knowledge is nearly all oral tradition and rules of thumb rather than formal architectural theory and engineering. But it's knowledge nonetheless.
    Again, this theory division is a tough one, because it's a slippery definition. What is 'theory'? This is the distinction I make at the moment, based on my current understanding, experience, research and reading

    Theory
    • unifying; seeks broader understandings and strong governing principles and laws
    • academic
    • seeks an overview or understanding
    • separate from practical considerations
    • may be studied exclusively of practice (so for example, literary theory or art history may be studied independently of actually writing literature or creating art)
    • an end in itself
    • testable and can be encapsulated in a syllabus
    • suits pedagogy and classroom teaching
    • can be communicated relatively quickly


    Know-how
    • usually quite disparate; rules of thumb, pockets of useful info, advice from experience alongside intuitive knowledge gained from personal experience
    • practical
    • seeks to facilitate effective 'doing'
    • inseparable from practical considerations
    • cannot be studied away from practice
    • valued only by how well it facilitates practice
    • not easily testable academically or turned into a syllabus as so many aspects are embodied or implicit. However, may easily be evaluated by experienced practitioners.
    • learned 'on the job' often in trade schools, apprenticeships etc
    • often takes time to internalise


    So, as with all black/white dichotomies there are many shades of grey. Chord Scale Theory for example, depending on how it used might end up in either category. The teaching of figured bass in modern music education is often rather academic and classroom oriented, while in the baroque era it was a means to improvisation and so on. It is possible to have an interest and aptitude for both (we see this often in jazz), but when it comes to playing the music, any practitioner would tell you flat out - the former is dispensable, the latter is essential.

    Typically the former category is associated with the professions, and the latter with the trades, but I would rather hope a practicing surgeon would have some know-how.

    In general in the arts, however it is possible to trace a division between where arts education was about the training of artisans and when it is about the study of the subject for academic reasons. One can look at the development of conservatoires from their original use as trade schools for the very young into institutions that more closely resemble liberal arts colleges.

    In jazz, 'theory' is almost always more practical and know-how oriented than it is in classical music. However, I think it's possible to see a steady shift towards more theoretical modes of study, especially in the literature that jazz education has produced.
    Last edited by Christian Miller; 10-25-2021 at 05:25 PM.

  10. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by John A.
    In the US, it's hard (though not impossible) to make a decent living without at least some post-secondary education, nearly all of which is called and accredited as "college" (including a lot that might more accurately be thought of as trade school). That's true of nearly every occupation, including "musician." So there you are, a teenager in a middle-class home hoping to stay in the middle class, or in a poor one hoping to move into the middle class. Every day, every adult in your life tells you you have to go to college. Your parents tell you you can be a musician, and they'll support you (to the extent they can), but only if you go to college. So you go to college. There is nothing in college you cannot learn by some other means. But as a matter of the way the society functions, you go to college. That was less true 50-75 years ago, but it's true now.

    Arguably, NYC is not part of the US (a joke, not a joke, by a native), it is affected by the same trend toward college as that large continent off the coast of Manhattan. Talking specifically about jazz, no matter how much formal theory you study, learning to play it is still an oral/apprenticeship tradition, except that now that tradition (or a portion of it, anyway) and early-career performance opportunities are more within institutions than on the bandstand/road. I would guess that the majority of jazz musicians under age, what?, 70? have music degrees and/or post-secondary studies in some other subject but also studied and played music in college. There might be a college or two in NYC. OTOH, in much of Europe, secondary education goes past age 18 and includes vocational study and certification and/or leads to post-secondary studies in institutions that aren't (in the US sense of the word) colleges. So Europeans don't "go to college" as much as Americans do, but they're still in school until age 21; they just don't call it "college".

    Anyway to the whole question of knowing "theory", I think it's more a matter of informal vs formal theory. You can't play jazz without having some organized knowledge of harmony. But that knowledge doesn't have to be formal academic knowledge. Just like you don't have to be an architect or engineer to design and build a building. you can be crafts-person whose knowledge is nearly all oral tradition and rules of thumb rather than formal architectural theory and engineering. But it's knowledge nonetheless.
    Excellent post. Many thanks!

  11. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchtopHeaven
    I'm in South East England. I've seen John live 3 times. Unfortunately not in the early 70's or during Grace And Danger.

    John Martin had what could be argued the greatest male voice ever recorded.

    Sundays Child is my favourite album. I spent most of my early 20's trying to play and sound like John.

    The guy I bought my Campellone off in Scotland went to school with John and lived across the road from him.

    What about yourself?
    Apologies for butting in.

    I'm in the UK too (North West) and am a JM fan also.

    I only saw him live a few times myself from the mid-80s to 1990. Best of all was his appearance at Fairport Convention's Cropredy Festival in 1987. He headlined the Friday night in his classic acoustic duo with Danny Thompson. My abiding memory is the acoustic, echoplex-ed notes rattling about all over the place, underpinned by that amazing double bass as John, who was on great form, repeatedly rapped "gonna get your feet done, when you go to Cropredy". (I sincerely hope I didn't imagine this bit!)

    Sunday's Child is also my favourite album. It's madly diverse, going from the beautiful, traditional folk of Spencer the Rover (I could weep when I hear that track) to the frankly psychotic heavy metal reggae of Root Love!

    Thanks for triggering happy memories of when John was alive and I still had some hair.

  12. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrome Dome
    Apologies for butting in.

    I'm in the UK too (North West) and am a JM fan also.

    I only saw him live a few times myself from the mid-80s to 1990. Best of all was his appearance at Fairport Convention's Cropredy Festival in 1987. He headlined the Friday night in his classic acoustic duo with Danny Thompson. My abiding memory is the acoustic, echoplex-ed notes rattling about all over the place, underpinned by that amazing double bass as John, who was on great form, repeatedly rapped "gonna get your feet done, when you go to Cropredy". (I sincerely hope I didn't imagine this bit!)

    Sunday's Child is also my favourite album. It's madly diverse, going from the beautiful, traditional folk of Spencer the Rover (I could weep when I hear that track) to the frankly psychotic heavy metal reggae of Root Love!

    Thanks for triggering happy memories of when John was alive and I still had some hair.
    Butting in is what this place is for.

    I've heard amazing stories abbot John, most of which you likely already know. The best one was when he was paid to play Stone Henge and demanded the money upfront. He took the money, promptly got smashed out of his mind and then refused to play so a bunch of bikers beat him up and left him in a ditch.

    Most of the time he got what was coming to him.

  13. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    I only seen John once back in the 90s. Solo, and in a small club, it was fantastic. You could mashed for free at those gigs which was always a bonus, too. My dads record collection was my intro to music mostly, some my earliest musical memories are hearing ‘Small Hours.’

    I was wondering, cos you said ‘school’ rather than ‘college’ or ‘uni’ which made me think you were American (but I often use US English here when I want to be understood by the colonials) so I thought it was strange you knew about John as no one knows him much in the US unlike Richard Thompson who obviously lives in LA.

    I’m getting quite into Inside Out at the moment; probably is most obviously Miles influenced album I would say. I think he said he was really into ‘in a Silent Way’ (Danny Thompson was a bit of bop nazi and took some convincing apparently.)
    Interesting. Danny Thompson is imo the greatest Folk bassist of all time. I really wanted to work with him when I was wiring folk in my early 20's.

    You might enjoy this bunch.

    These are two more British folk acts around at the same time, although TISB started a bit earlier. Nick Drakes best album is 5 leaves left. Danny Thompson also plays on the TISB song/album. His style is instantly recognisable. Not sure if he played with Drake. Most likely did.




  14. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchtopHeaven
    Interesting. Danny Thompson is imo the greatest Folk bassist of all time. I really wanted to work with him when I was wiring folk in my early 20's.

    You might enjoy this bunch.

    These are two more British folk acts around at the same time, although TISB started a bit earlier. Nick Drakes best album is 5 leaves left. Danny Thompson also plays on the TISB song/album. His style is instantly recognisable. Not sure if he played with Drake. Most likely did.



    Yeah, Danny played with Nick Drake on every cut on Five Leaves Left. He didn't play on Bryter Lyter, that was Dave Pegg on bass, but Danny led a fantastic live concert tribute to Drake that featured some excellent vocalists doing Danny's arrangements of Nick's tunes with a full orchestra.
    Nick was quite influenced by jazz with his use of Danny and Ray Warleigh on flute and sax (on Bryter Lyter). His songwriting skills and voice were out of this world. His ability to write lyrics with such few words, yet still able to evoke a world of meaning, has never been equaled.
    The UK just wasn't up to him, and his music never reached the States until years after his untimely death.

  15. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    I never make comments about a players playing level, online or privately. Not because I'm polite but because it's what it is and it's uninteresting, we are all students in this infinite domain (hopefully).
    You have no idea how much I appreciate this comment!

  16. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchtopHeaven
    Sure I could play folk, funk, pop, death metal, rock etc but I couldn't play Jazz.

    And that's why those people who don't play jazz or have any musical training, think it's such a big deal. They can play all the other types of music, mostly by ear and one blues scale. To evolve from that is a big step out of your comfort zone.
    And why should you? They think the greatest ever guitar player is Eric Clapton.
    They've never heard of Wes Montgomery, Johnny Smith, Hank Garland, George Benson etc..
    You only have to play a G13 and they think you're doing some sort of sexy witch craft.
    "Sounds Jazzy man".

    I'm not knocking it, I've been on both sides.
    This is basically me now. I can play Vai note for note (depending on the song lol), and almost all of Yes' catalog note for note, but Four On Six? Nope (not yet, anyway). I can play damn near any rock song, no matter who wrote it, on first listen before it's over. But I got myself a Philly jazz teacher in June and am happier now that I am actually progressing into things I didn't know before, rather than polishing that same old stone some more. After 45 years that stone is an f'ing mirror already! lol And honestly I can't thank all of you enough for how much I've learned from all of you about jazz and all that that involves. But I agree 100% it's a big step out of the comfort zone, to go from being a rock master to being a neophyte in a world of 4 and 5 note chords. But as my old karate teacher used to say about breaking bricks, "4 or 5 years will go by anyway, not not expand what you can achieve, as those years will go by anyway?"

  17. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchtopHeaven
    Interesting. Danny Thompson is imo the greatest Folk bassist of all time. I really wanted to work with him when I was wiring folk in my early 20's.

    You might enjoy this bunch.

    These are two more British folk acts around at the same time, although TISB started a bit earlier. Nick Drakes best album is 5 leaves left. Danny Thompson also plays on the TISB song/album. His style is instantly recognisable. Not sure if he played with Drake. Most likely did.



    Most would agree. I saw him once with Richard Thompson back in the 90s before I understood what I was listening to...

    James Jamerson was a bop bass player but ended up being the daddy electric bass player of all time didn't he?

    Anyway as others have noted the 'folk baroque' scene was hugely influenced by jazz. Davey Graham literally had a tune called 'Tristano' and played plenty of bop licks. An eclectic time... free thinking and highly individual musicians.

  18. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by jim777
    This is basically me now. I can play Vai note for note (depending on the song lol), and almost all of Yes' catalog note for note, but Four On Six? Nope (not yet, anyway). I can play damn near any rock song, no matter who wrote it, on first listen before it's over. But I got myself a Philly jazz teacher in June and am happier now that I am actually progressing into things I didn't know before, rather than polishing that same old stone some more. After 45 years that stone is an f'ing mirror already! lol And honestly I can't thank all of you enough for how much I've learned from all of you about jazz and all that that involves. But I agree 100% it's a big step out of the comfort zone, to go from being a rock master to being a neophyte in a world of 4 and 5 note chords. But as my old karate teacher used to say about breaking bricks, "4 or 5 years will go by anyway, not not expand what you can achieve, as those years will go by anyway?"
    It's also freeing sometimes to be a beginner. At least I find that. It's fun!

    My central point, if I have one is - learning chords and so on is cool, but remember the heart of jazz is not (just) in the note choices... not special 'jazz notes' (which you can find in Nirvana songs lol, let alone Vai)

    A jazz player can take a minor blues scale and make it sound like jazz. (And could do the same thing with the diminished scale or whatever, of course.)

    Be hip to that or you'll wake up in ten years wondering why you still can't pay jazz. Very important, the books don't tell you that, hopefully your teacher knows that. In Philly it seems likely?

    You might find it helpful to read a French grammar, but you need to learn pronunciation, accent, idiom to speak French... right? You are in a good place to do that in person. Better than me!

  19. #93

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    Anyway as others have noted the 'folk baroque' scene was hugely influenced by jazz. Davey Graham literally had a tune called 'Tristano' and played plenty of bop licks. An eclectic time... free thinking and highly individual musicians.
    One of the biggest influence on British music at the time was Indian music, which can be heard throughout the genre and in bands like the Beatles.

    I would say Danny Thompson was a jazz bassist at heart because you can hear him capably improvising his bass lines throughout songs.
    So in that way Jazz simply means 'A musician of high caliber able to create melody and direct harmony at will, relative to an agreed framework'.

  20. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchtopHeaven
    One of the biggest influence on British music at the time was Indian music, which can be heard throughout the genre and in bands like the Beatles.

    I would say Danny Thompson was a jazz bassist at heart because you can hear him capably improvising his bass lines throughout songs.
    So in that way Jazz simply means 'A musician of high caliber able to create melody and direct harmony at will, relative to an agreed framework'.
    No it bloody doesn't because if it did then loads of 'classical' musicians of the 17th and 18th century would have been a jazz musicans too (they could all improvise from basses etc, and many could improvise fugues, sonatas, you name it)

    Now, I know some people like to say Bach was a jazzer, but actually I find that a bit dodgy culturally. Jazz, in so much as we should even use the term, refers to an African American tradition of music that happens to incorporate improvisation (as does Hindustani music, Arabic music, or rock), but also has an aesthetic, groove and social history that is all its own (which is not to say that jazz itself isn't a fusion, and that there aren't commonalities and influences from other musics.)

    But the association of jazz specifically with improvisation is a quirk of western music history, and tells us more about (20th century) European musician's hang ups than anything about jazz itself. Bloody hell, Monk's Crespuscule with Nellie is one of the best things in the history jazz and not a note of that is improvised. It's a piece, as much as a Chopin prelude. It doesn't half piss me off when influential people who should know better like David bloody Elliot start talking about how jazz doesn't have an aesthetic or 'texts'.

    Aside from the fact that jazz has flipping gorgeous corpus of music with a very specific aesthetic and texts in the form of many great recordings, compositions and even scores, you can talk about its social and community focus, its layered organisation, you also its connection to dance, groove and polyrhythm... all that stuff. Even the use of 'jazz' as a noun is a bit of a problem - trying to pin down something which really was quite organic once upon a time.... (not so now)

    Sorry about that, a bit triggered. Reading too many music edu theorists who seem to know bugger all about anything apart from saying over and over again 'ooo Western Classical Music Education isn't it awful?'. To which I say 'yes, mate, leave me out of it and deal with your own baggage, and please don't infect us with your disease.' (Too late)

    Right, with that off my chest, people think playing jazz makes more versatile and knowledgeable, quite honestly I'm not sure it does, but to be a good jazz player you need good ears, to be able to hear what's going on in an ensemble and adapt what you are doing, and a developed sense of rhythm. These are all transferable skills. But a lot of jazzers need to learn to reign it in to play nice with non jazzers....
    Last edited by Christian Miller; 10-30-2021 at 07:03 PM.

  21. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    No it bloody doesn't because if it did then loads of 'classical' musicians of the 17th and 18th century would have been a jazz musicans too (they could all improvise from basses etc, and many could improvise fugues, sonatas, you name it)

    Now, I know some people like to say Bach was a jazzer, but actually I find that a bit dodgy culturally. Jazz, in so much as we should even use the term, refers to an African American tradition of music that happens to incorporate improvisation (as does Hindustani music, Arabic music, or rock), but also has an aesthetic, groove and social history that is all its own (which is not to say that jazz itself isn't a fusion, and that there aren't commonalities and influences from other musics.)

    But the association of jazz specifically with improvisation is a quirk of western music history, and tells us more about (20th century) European musician's hang ups than anything about jazz itself. Bloody hell, Monk's Crespuscule with Nellie is one of the best things in the history jazz and not a note of that is improvised. It's a piece, as much as a Chopin prelude. It doesn't half piss me off when influential people who should know better like David bloody Elliot start talking about how jazz doesn't have an aesthetic or 'texts'.

    Aside from the fact that jazz has flipping gorgeous corpus of music with a very specific aesthetic and texts in the form of many great recordings, compositions and even scores, you can talk about its social and community focus, its layered organisation, you also its connection to dance, groove and polyrhythm... all that stuff. Even the use of 'jazz' as a noun is a bit of a problem - trying to pin down something which really was quite organic once upon a time.... (not so now)

    Sorry about that, a bit triggered. Reading too many music edu theorists who seem to know bugger all about anything apart from saying over and over again 'ooo Western Classical Music Education isn't it awful?'. To which I say 'yes, mate, leave me out of it and deal with your own baggage, and please don't infect us with your disease.' (Too late)

    Right, with that off my chest, people think playing jazz makes more versatile and knowledgeable, quite honestly I'm not sure it does, but to be a good jazz player you need good ears, to be able to hear what's going on in an ensemble and adapt what you are doing, and a developed sense of rhythm. These are all transferable skills. But a lot of jazzers need to learn to reign it in to play nice with non jazzers....
    I'm inclined to agreee with you but..

    To that end is Kenny Wheeler, Ornate Coleman, Bill Frissell, John Scofield etc.. jazz? Of course all have done more straight jazz work and use jazz musicians, or musicians trained in jazz but is Bill Frissel's 'trio live' stuff jazz? I would imagine if you played it to a 'non jazzer' they would say "turn that crap off", which is a good indicator that they would think of it as jazz


  22. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchtopHeaven
    I'm inclined to agreee with you but..

    To that end is Kenny Wheeler, Ornate Coleman, Bill Frissell, John Scofield etc.. jazz? Of course all have done more straight jazz work and use jazz musicians, or musicians trained in jazz but is Bill Frissel's 'trio live' stuff jazz? I would imagine if you played it to a 'non jazzer' they would say "turn that crap off", which is a good indicator that they would think of it as jazz

    Haha what’s that clip?

    Oh man, Sco is massive case in point as to how much of that you can have going in your playing, on a deep level. He gets it. His playing is full of NOLA, funk, bop, even 30s swing. You don’t play with Mingus and Miles and get away without having that.

    Bill? I think he’s simply one of the best musicians to grace gods earth and it wouldn’t matter to me if he could play jazz or not. The fact that he can with his own flavour and feel is icing on the cake. I remember reading a downbeat blindfold thing with one of the straightahead big hitters - christian McBride, Joshua Redman someone like that, can’t recall, listening to him on Benny’s Bugle (with NO BASS) and saying, ‘man that guitar player swings’. He’s not known for it, but he does.

    And Kenny. Well, it’s fashionable in some circles to diss him as taking jazz away from the blues, but I don’t hear it. Perhaps it’s a more European flavour, but I still feel it as being a part of that tradition. The same with EST, for instance. I also love that Kenny came out of bloody trad jazz haha.

    Ornette’s music swings as hard as any Blue Note record, deep blues, layered music, a commitment to community in music… etc. His early stuff practically is Hard Bop…. From a Western point of view, very eccentric, untutored, possibly a ‘naive’ artist, apparently he couldn’t even transpose a melody (according to Gunther Schuller) but who cares? To me he goes deep (it seems in the UK a lot the top free players - Orphy, Mark Sanders etc - swing as hard or harder than a lot of the straightahead guys to my ears)

    yeah, absolutely jazz isn’t stacking notes on GASB standards according to some bullshit you read in a manual. Or putting on a suit and pretending to be a 1950s jazz musician. Those can be part of it, but these basic attempts to gatekeep this music are… well I have a hard time taking it seriously. There are your traditionalists - Barry Harris wouldn’t think those guys are jazz and no one is going to change Barry’s mind haha. But I think that inherent quality is something I know when I hear it and feel it - and it’s not (usually) in classical improvisation or Hindustani music for instance.

    Good music doesn’t have to have anything to do with jazz of course, but IMO their music really goes to the core of what jazz is. You don’t have to limited to playing jazz of course; plenty of Bill’s music in particular transcends jazz. But jazz is a bit like truffle oil, right? We get used to eating loads of it, but outside of our little gang, a little flavour of it goes a loooooong way haha .
    Last edited by Christian Miller; 10-31-2021 at 07:05 AM.

  23. #97

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    Haha what’s that clip?
    Talladega Nights: The Ballad of Ricky Bobby.
    Broad, cheap comedy about 'Murka.

    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    Gunther Schuller
    That guy, ha ... what a moron.

  24. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hammertone
    That guy, ha ... what a moron.
    Lol

  25. #99

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    Lol
    I'm enjoying this discussion so to continue I will know posit that what seems to make something 'jazz' in your book, is the ability to "swing"?

    I think you're being pretty generous with Scofield but I'm not against your point.

  26. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchtopHeaven
    I'm enjoying this discussion so to continue I will know posit that what seems to make something 'jazz' in your book, is the ability to "swing"?
    The Waltz as a form is large part of Classical Music. But so much of classical music has nothing to do with the Waltz form.

    To me at least- Jazz goes so far beyond "Swing". Bolero, Gypsy, Bossa,,,,,,

    To limit the definition of Jazz to North American roots and swing dismisses the enormous contribution and heritage to all these other jazz forms. I am no expert as to whether this music which has existed as long as that from North America. I am too new to it all. Certainly though; through Western Media and the distribution of new and exciting American cultural ideas/concepts into other 'Western' cultures through the 30s 40s 50s etc has become the predominant known form. I suspect though these forms developed independently or at least developed their own dialects to the point they are unique and just as popular- just not in our own little worlds. The further I dive into this, the more I appreciate these other forms, even the 'westernised' adopted versions of them.

    EMike