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So.. after all those sexy videos produced by DV Mark on the Jazz 12 combo I had to buy one to try one.
Placed it right next to my Fender Hot Rod Deluxe, all settings at 12 o'clock... slapped a couple of chords and licks on a looper and stood
back to hear the difference. This is recorded on a simple phone camera so no sexy post production, tweaking,
refinement or polishing like those folks who shall remain nameless have obviously been doing.
Right away especially when side by side and me 6 feet away I hear the difference.
The DV Mark 12 seems boxy, muffled and somewhat flat and very 2-dimensional, monochromatic and sterile. It lacks any
real dynamic range or life sparkle.. its pseudo modelled warmth is purely synthetic along with its digitised reverb.
The Fender Hot Rod the other hand is completely ALIVE with full room filling Technicolor 3D, organic, sparking, crystalline clarity from lows to highs, lush reverb and genuine warmth.
Only took me 15 seconds to decide which one I will be keeping.
MORAL: Don't believe the hype.
Thoughts?
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10-02-2021 09:39 AM
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While i agree that the fender sounds better on this clip, it's not an honest comparison.
Setting both at 12 o clock doesn't make sense. You set them where they sound best and then compare. The EQ of the fender amp is different from the dv mark.
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For a more fair comparison, you may want to plug both of them into the same cabinet. But yes this matches my experience comparing my Fender Princeton with my Quilter Micro Pro II. Quilter sounds good but even when they are both plugged into the same cabinet (with Quilter in the "Fender mode"), Princeton has a more open, sweet and ambient sound.
Quilter captures some of the character of the amp but doesn't produce the same sonic experience. In a band situation, the "less open" sounding class D amps my be preferable by some. Also the complex, 3D (so to speak) qualities of tube amps kind of get lost in the mix I think.
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First, you didn’t match output levels. From my iPad at full volume, with my SPL meter about 3” from the center of the bottom edge, the Mark sample peaks at 78 dB and the Fender sample peaks at 84. There are many studies showing that when an identical passage is presented twice through the same system at different SPLs, and blinded listeners are asked to choose which one sounds better, they always choose the louder one. Even a 1 or 2 dB difference causes this effect.
Second, you didn’t match EQ, which would be difficult to impossible by ear but just as important to a fair comparison as loudness.
Third, we all agree that Fender spring reverb sounds better than DV Mark digital reverb, especially at more than very low levels. Leaving reverb off would have made the playing field more level.
We have a Vibrolux, a custom shop Princeton Reverb, an original tweed Blues Deluxe, and a Mark Jazz 12 next to each other on stage at the club in which I play twice a week. These are also our guitar backline for the touring acts we book for Fri and Sat shows (along with a Peavey Bandit). I usually use the Mark with my archtops for our jazz shows and the Vibrolux with a Wampler Tumnus for blues. The Princeton (on a low stand, angled up) has fatter bass than the Mark, which magnifies the potential for clashes between my 7th string and our bass player. The Vibrolux sits on top of the Leslie, where its bass is no bigger than the Mark’s and the general tone can be dialed close to the same on both. The Mark has cleaner bass - my 7th string makes the V’lux a bit flatulent. The second guitarist in our blues band uses the Princeton with his mojo mojo pedal.
There’s plenty to please in all of these. But I don’t think any is clearly a better amp. Some are better for some genres, settings, and tastes. But I’ve done OK with all of them and could live happily with any as my only amp if I had to do so.
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There are many amps available for sale. Everyone votes with their wallet. I haven't voted for a Fender for more than 30 years.
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All that matters is how these two amps sound to you. You pays your money, you takes your choice. I think both are fine amps that perhaps shine in different contexts.
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A couple of comments from a former HRDL owner who's also used several DV Mark amp heads. 1) HRDL is LOUD tube amp! I had difficulties taming it even in a band setting. It's also heavy; after my first thigh muscle rupture, I just had to sell it. 2) DV Mark amps are darker-sounding than Fenders. Many jazz players actually like that and can also cope with the chorusy-tipsy reverb when used in moderation. The more important difference , however, may come from the DV Mark speaker. I haven't tried the latest editions, but at least an earlier BlackGuitarStar I have is very dark-sounding and clearly less sensitive than the ones used by Fender. The company releases no data on these, except the very low weight, which points to a smaller voice coil and magnet than on comparable makes. On the other hand, they should handle up to 150W, 3 X the DV Mark amp's output. They need the extra power for loudness, but here the amp appears underpowered and, hence, a mismatch. 3) I'm not questioning your verdict and preference - there's a significant price and weight difference, too - but in a way, you have compared apples to pears. 4) Overall, comments about the need to use different settings on different amps are valid.
What I would like to see/hear is an A/B comparison between any contemporary solid state combo, be it a Fender ToneMaster, Quilter Aviator Cub or DV Mark, and a Polytone. Myth prevailing or busted?
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One of the biggest problems with the entire series of Blues and Hot Rod amps is that the clean volume pots have a very steep taper, so volume is very hard to control. On our Blues Deluxe, the clean volume is whisper quiet between 7 and 9 o'clock but blazingly loud at 9:01. I swapped 12AY7s for the OEM 12AX7s in V1 and V2, which tamed this a fair amount. But the ideal solution is to replace the pot with a more linear tapered substitute.
Originally Posted by Gitterbug
This is not as much of a problem with the "lead" channel(s), because the cascaded gain pots give finer control over output volume. Unfortunately, the tone through the lead channel(s) is not really suited for most jazz. Some may like it for fusion and funkier styles, but it's far too rough and grainy for my taste.
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Fender sounded better in the video. More highs, much better reverb.
An HRD was one of the best sounding amps I've ever played through.
Mostly, though, I use a Little Jazz.
The Mark 12 sounded good, but not as good.
That said, I fully agree with the points made by others about balancing volume and optimizing EQ. One of the things I like about the LJ is that it tames the sizzle or sitar-like sound that a high E string can generate high up the neck. That's a feature which may turn into a bug if you're trying to get shimmer from a Telecaster single coil.
That's a lush Fender reverb vs whatever it is that DV calls reverb. Fender wins that, unless you're not using amp reverb.
Perhaps most significant is that the Fender costs, and weighs, roughly twice as much. For that money and trouble, it ought to sound better -- it's in a different price and weight class. As an aside, I think an amp sounds a little better when I don't have to risk injury on the load-in. All that said, I think the price/weight issue is not part of the sound comparison.
One of the problems with posting a video like this is that, almost no matter how you do it, somebody is going to complain that you should have done it some other way. I appreciate the work involved and the result and I apologize for what may seem like a complaint.
That said, if I was making a decision between the two, I'd adjust each one to get close to "my sound" while matching volumes. I add reverb with a pedal board, but I'd still compare that to the amp reverb.Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 10-02-2021 at 08:41 PM.
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Honest? Originally Posted by Marcel_A
Honest: Definition. Free of deceit.
Oh yes it's definitely my intention to be deceitful.
I have had the DV Mark 12 for 6 days.. I practice an average 6 hours a day guitar, in that time I did the same test back and forth comparing both amps at every EQ and volume setting possible alone and with friends.. I'm sorry I was not able to shoot or live stream all 36 hours of testing for you to comply with your honesty qualification.
The results and conclusion are same. Next to the Hot Rod the DV Mark is very lacking and flat regardless of any and all tweaking and it's glorious tone as extolled by many is a gross exaggeration or just plainly false..
PS: I have been dabbling and playing with jazz and jazz guitar personally and professionally for 40 years now but I figured today would be a good day to start being deceitful about amps.
At the end of the day it comes down to what kind of ear you have. We all see colour differently and we all hear sound differently.. having said that of the musicians and non musicians that heard these amps together in my home every single person preferred the Hot Rod over the DV Mark including a couple of housewives.
But hey..maybe they were all being deceitful...
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As already stated I tried every setting possible over 6 days. Originally Posted by Gitterbug
i agree though with one of your points.. the apples and pears.
The only reason I bought the DV 12 is because one day smoke followed by sparks shot out of the back of the Hot Rod so it was out of action and I needed something
to practice on quick. Hearing such wonderful things about the DV Mark plus the slick promotional videos had me salivating.. the amp even kind of sounded half ok and
usable at first, that was until I turned the (fixed) Hot Rod on then it was simply OVER for the DV 12 in a matter of seconds. Still I gave it 6 whole days to persuade me. But as you say it's apples and pears.
The next amp I buy has to be much better than the Fender Hot Rod Deluxe, even as a back up practice amp, not worse. The DV Mark 12 with its digital nasally boxed sound is certainly not it.
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Wow - can you share with us what failed? Originally Posted by Maxxx
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Bought the hype, bought the DV. Shipped to the house, plugged it in, played a bit, packed it up and shipped it back. Everyone's ears are different.
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That's the truth. Originally Posted by Kevin Michael
I learned it, or relearned it, in a thread about the Zeta Lunchbox amp. I couldn't get a useable tone from it. But, there's an excellent player on here who really likes it. He posted a recording and, although I admire his playing, I just don't like the sound of that amp.
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Two weeks ago I went to jam with a bass player who is also a guitarist/multiinstrumentalist in his music room. He had recently purchased a second hand Hot Rod Deluxe (not sure which version, but the tag at the top of front of the cabinet said "Fender - Deluxe").
I didn't know he had gotten it so I had brought my Dv Mark little jazz (8" speaker version of the DV Mark jazz 12) with me. But since I am a huge fan of Fender valve amps I played the Hot Rod Deluxe instead and I really loved it. It's defninitly subjective and a matter of personal preference, but to me the Hot Rod Deluxe is with out doubt the winner in terms of sound.
I do think that the video in the original post reflects my experience of the difference between these two amps quite decently. Sure, perhaps a settings tweek could have made the comparison slightly more fair, but I still do think the video captures the gist of their sound characters and their difference quite well.
(comparing them with the same cab would be a valueable comparison of only the amp sections of the two amps, but they are sold as combos and probably mostly used as combos so IMHO I think a combo vs combo comparison is valuable and interesting).
In my opinion I also usually find it easier to dial in Fender valve amps to a sound I like and I somtimes struggle a bit with the DV Mark EQ even though I've had it for a while.
In terms of price, portability and probably reliability the LJ is definitely the winner. The LJ is a "good enough" amp. I do definiely enjoy playing the LJ and think it is a lot better than a lot of amps.
If I play somewhere where there is already an amp available, I usually bring my LJ anyway and most of the time end up playing it instead of what is available, because it is usually the better amp (and I'm used to it) and it quite easy to bring it along regardless of whether I will use it or not (if I go by car).
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Side by side for dimension and room filling sparkle I really think a tube amp will win every time. What you hear on a recording is a different matter. Much of what you hear and feel, is lost on a recording and someone might well prefer the little DVMark. No surprise from my point of view.
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These high quality SS amps are great platforms for tube modelling pedals/preamps. I'm not talking about distortion/overdrive pedals but pedals that are designed to go direct to mixing board, PA or recording interface like Tech 21, Helix, Strymon etc.
I like the idea of a modular design with a separate cab, amp and premap/amp modeler. I bet you can make DV Mark sound as good as high quality modeling amps like Quilters or Fender Tonemasters with a good modelling pedal.
Will it sound as good as an actual tube amp is a subjective question. But if your goal is to have an SS amp that can sound as good to you as your tube amps, DV Mark + a modeling pedal will make a fairer comparison.
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Apples and oranges. Cant make an apple taste like an orange! Of course they sound and respond differently. No EQ, magic pedal, or fairy dust can change the fact that the technologies are So different inside. One based on current the other voltage, power distribution (rail vs point injection), power supplies vastly different, output transformer vs none, the staged design in tube amps (one stage after another) vs the SS ‘tangle’, tube vs transistor response characteristics, how a grid effects the amplification factors vs a silicon junction. We could go on.
Point is they’re two vastly different technical approaches and will sound and respond differently.
Vanilla and chocolate. Why try to make your chocolate into vanilla?
Now, we all know the gigging advantages of SS : reliability, weight, heat, cost and so forth. And when playing over a room full of half drunk jerks trying to talk over your playing - does it matter?
Just keep yer fingers off my 74 PR. Deal?
(Which a million years ago when I played i used its speaker for my Woods, and the PR amp as backup)))
Did you know many SS amps, big $ names, all use the exact same OEM class D power amp? ICEPower. About 140$ from a parts house.
jk
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That old saw is always just a tiny bit iritating to me. They're both fruit - so (unless you're a disciple of Goethe) comparison is not only possible but appropriate Originally Posted by jazzkritter
. Like the best guitars and amplifiers, they're both sweet. They both make great tarts and they both make great juice. If comparison weren't possible, one couldn't choose between them (or among the many other available substitutes, from avocados to zwetschgen).
Just as we all have preferences in juice, tarts, and candies, we all have preferences in tone and feel. BB King loved his Lab Series SS amp and Albert Collins loved his tube Fenders. Many of our jazz guitar heroes loved their Polytones and many loved their Twins. Neither is "better" - they're just different.
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Hmm thought that was what i tried to say.
But you accept the Vanilla Chocolate argument?)))
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Nothing personal Jazz Kritter, but this is a line of thinking that has always bothered me. Originally Posted by jazzkritter
(snip)
Now, we all know the gigging advantages of SS : reliability, weight, heat, cost and so forth. And when playing over a room full of half drunk jerks trying to talk over your playing - does it matter?
Just keep yer fingers off my 74 PR. Deal? (Which a million years ago when I played i used its speaker for my Woods, and the PR amp as backup)))
Did you know many SS amps, big $ names, all use the exact same OEM class D power amp? ICEPower. About 140$ from a parts house.
jk
I mean, sure, the drunk patron won't know which amp you brought. In fact, he won't know that you brought your cheapest guitar. Or that you left the pedalboard at home.
For that matter, he won't notice if YOU stay home!
At a certain point, bringing your good gear is a matter of professionalism and pride, and YOU know how you sound best! I used to go to funky bars with vintage amp and guitars, because that's how I wanted to sound. And you never knew when your next job or recording session was in the audience!
Again, nothing personal, and I get the allure of small SS amps, particularly if you are taking mass transit! I used to lug that gear in the subway in NYC! I wouldn't today!
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On the ground floor, the HRD is the best amp I ever played through. Not sure exactly which version of it.
Up a long flight of stairs on a hot day, the LJ sounds pretty darn good.
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Sorry - I wasn't trying to contradict you. I was just reacting to your allusion to the generally accepted idea that a comparison of apples to oranges is inappropriate. Chocolate and vanilla make another great example. They're both flavors. They're both derivatives of beans. They both make great cake, ice cream, sauce, etc. So they're directly comparable. And some of us love one, some love the other, some neither, and some both. It's all OK. Some even mix the two, leading to the age old question, "How is a black and white milkshake like a hybrid guitar amplifier?" Originally Posted by jazzkritter
One difference between fruits and amplifiers is that most people can easily identify the smell and taste of an apple and differentiate it from an orange. I wonder if this would be true for well matched pairs of amps in blinded testing. Plug the guitar alternately into two amplifiers, one SS and one tube, to see if he or she can tell which is which (or use a recorded passage from each). I suspect that many (or maybe even most) of those who are vociferous defenders of the superiority of one over the other couldn't consistently tell the difference in a well matched pair.
I just realized that there's one similarity between fruits and amplifiers that permits direct comparison. Fruits, like tube amps, will deteriorate if left on their own and become unusable at some point because of this. There are ways to slow this, like lemon juice, refrigeration, etc. But eventually, you'll need fresh fruit because the old will be inedible. And tube amps will need new tubes, caps, resistors, etc. You can slow this with fans, well designed cabinets, optimal voltages & currents, careful handling, etc. SS amps are much more resistant to deterioration through aging and use, both because most of the circuit components are not exposed to as much heat and because many of the hard parts (especially in the output stage) are inherently more durable.
I love tube amps, so I just consider them high maintenance lovers. As I got older, I started to appreciate less demanding companions......
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I'll play the contrarian here and say the DV Mark sounds better to me. It's a good thing they make so many different amplification products. I've had three Fender amps--Hot Rod Deluxe, Blues Junior, and '65 Princeton reissue--and I couldn't wait to get rid of them. My current favorite amp in my home studio is the DV Mark Micro 50 Jazz head with the DV Mark 208 cabinet.
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How about the DV Mark 12 vs Tonemaster Deluxe? That would take the weight hassle out of the equation.
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