Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Page 6 of 6 FirstFirst ... 456
Posts 126 to 146 of 146
  1. #126

    User Info Menu

    [QUOTE=DMgolf66;1148515]
    Quote Originally Posted by silverfoxx

    Has Mark made any L-5CES style guitars? I see WesMo's , thinner body 17", floater PUs 17", but have not seen 2 PU, 17 inch, 3"+ thick.
    He just did one with 2 P90's. He will do whatever you want.

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #127

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by vinnyv1k
    A 2023 Super 400 in gloss ebony black for $20K I would probably pull the trigger. Skippy dog food on a saltine really doesn’t taste that bad.
    You won't be able to afford saltines.

  4. #128
    A member posted the following on the Forum for Mr. Koehler's consideration:

    "Hi Mat,
    Back to revamping the L5s, here's list of changes I've compiled over several years of research, maybe this would help out in recreating the original vintage magic. Look how badly they screwed them up in 1970!

    1951-1954 P-90s and plastic Kluson sealfast tuner buttons
    1953 Metal ABR-1 bridge replaces wooden
    1954-1957 Alnico Pickups
    1955 2-foot bridge replaces solid foot, barrel knobs replace speed knobs
    1956 Metal tuner buttons, celluloid binding replaces wood in cutout
    1957 PAF pickups
    Late 1957-58 Rubber grommet added to switch

    1960 Florentine cut began (basically ended in 1969), pickguard screwed to top instead of pinned to side of neck
    1962-1969 Solid backs replaced by ply (starting in 1965 some solid backs were used mostly in Venetian L5s), 3-piece neck replaces 2-piece
    1963 transition year to CTS pots and to black with yellow interior cases
    Late 1965 beginning transition to sombrero knobs, headstock angle changed from 17 to 14 degrees
    1967-2012 Truss rod sheath

    1970 fiberboard headstock overlay replaces wood
    smaller flower pot on headstock
    Volute added (ended in 1982)
    Screw-on pickguard mount used replacing traditional
    MOP inlay added to feet of bridge
    neck set raised much higher making string tension higher
    slope of top near neck changed necessitating turning neck pickup backwards to make pickup even with strings
    stopped fancy truss rod cover
    1976 Cherry and Black finishes added

    1980 Schaller tuning machines replace Kluson Sealfast

    Tailpieces
    1976-1992 no varitone hole
    1976-1983 silver insert
    1984-1992 Black Insert
    1993 silver insert"

    I am in no way verifying the accuracy of the information (there are many of you here that have the expertise in that area), but merely posting it here for informational purposes. If anyone has anything to add or contradict, please let me know and I'd be happy to post on the other Forum.







  5. #129

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight Blues View Post
    Hey Drifter,

    Here's Mat's response:

    "Oh man. A lot to unpack here. Why did Gibson products change over time (and they ALL did...even year to year sometimes)? A combination of supply chain, engineering changes, a rapid life cycle philosophy, and a lot of things that were considered improvements for the player and/or for the construction of the instruments. The sales team dictated a lot of the product changes (the switch to the thin nut width in '65 for instance). But with regards to archtops, as I mentioned previously, what we are building now and the instruments in the 1970s are fantastic instruments. Truly. I have no doubt about that. And if we are going to create a Historic Reissue archtop collection to fit in the rest of our current product architecture, which is my intention, I'm going to choose to reissue the most collectible and valuable era. I'm not a marketer. If it sounds like I am trying to convince you that your guitar is bad or inferior to anything new, I'm not. My goal is to provide options, namely the ownership experience of owning one of the most valuable and collectible vintage instruments. There are NO late 1950s L-5CES models listed for sale currently even if you wanted to buy an original...so more reason to create Historic Reissues of them. Thanks for the note."


    LMK if you have any follow-up questions:
    MB
    This is exactly what I thought would happen (I just wandered into this thread). There will be a 59 Reissue L5 that will be almost identical to what was already offered but will be $5k more as it is 'historically accurate' - when it actually isn't (like their Historic Les Paul's, although they are much more accurate in the past 5 years). I don't recall people coveting a specific year of L5s like blues rock guys covet the 59 Les Paul and late 50s PAFs.

    So, when they say, 'all new models' - it's just marketing so some people may think there is something new to buy/covet. Like their Historic Signature Les Paul's - "this is a recreation of Mike Bloomfield's Les Paul" and it costs $5k more than a regular Historic but looks nothing like Mike's old Les Paul, is not historically accurate in specs, and is no different than a regular Historic other than they tried (and mostly failed) to match the flame pattern.

    Right now, you can pay $3,299 for a new ES-335 or $5,999 for a new 1959 ES-335 re-issue. That $2,700 gets you? dirty finish, different dot material, different nut material, different plastic material for the knobs, and no truss rod condom.

    They are in a tough spot as their choices are:
    1) come up with a revolutionary new model(s)
    2) switch up the marketing to package the same product in a different pitch and raise the price
    3) make slight tweaks that entice enough new buyers but don't put off traditionalists (overlaps with #2)

    They've been treading mostly with #2 and some of #3.

    When it comes to re-using old models, Nike as been making a ton of money by re-releasing classic sneakers in different color combinations. They sell out so fast they have had to implement a draw system in recent times. But, they don't have to worry about traditionalists - jazz guitarists, more than other crowds, don't like huge departures from tradition, at least when it comes to their instruments. It would be interesting to see how much demand there would be for different colors of the L5, ES-175 with exclusivity built in. "1 of 5 all black limited edition", "1 of 5 faded blonde", light burst, honey burst, bourbon burst, historic burst, <insert any word> burst

  6. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by HeyNow View Post
    This is exactly what I thought would happen (I just wandered into this thread). There will be a 59 Reissue L5 that will be almost identical to what was already offered but will be $5k more as it is 'historically accurate' - when it actually isn't (like their Historic Les Paul's, although they are much more accurate in the past 5 years). I don't recall people coveting a specific year of L5s like blues rock guys covet the 59 Les Paul and late 50s PAFs.

    So, when they say, 'all new models' - it's just marketing so some people may think there is something new to buy/covet. Like their Historic Signature Les Paul's - "this is a recreation of Mike Bloomfield's Les Paul" and it costs $5k more than a regular Historic but looks nothing like Mike's old Les Paul, is not historically accurate in specs, and is no different than a regular Historic other than they tried (and mostly failed) to match the flame pattern.

    Right now, you can pay $3,299 for a new ES-335 or $5,999 for a new 1959 ES-335 re-issue. That $2,700 gets you? dirty finish, different dot material, different nut material, different plastic material for the knobs, and no truss rod condom.

    They are in a tough spot as their choices are:
    1) come up with a revolutionary new model(s)
    2) switch up the marketing to package the same product in a different pitch and raise the price
    3) make slight tweaks that entice enough new buyers but don't put off traditionalists (overlaps with #2)

    They've been treading mostly with #2 and some of #3.

    When it comes to re-using old models, Nike as been making a ton of money by re-releasing classic sneakers in different color combinations. They sell out so fast they have had to implement a draw system in recent times. But, they don't have to worry about traditionalists - jazz guitarists, more than other crowds, don't like huge departures from tradition, at least when it comes to their instruments. It would be interesting to see how much demand there would be for different colors of the L5, ES-175 with exclusivity built in. "1 of 5 all black limited edition", "1 of 5 faded blonde", light burst, honey burst, bourbon burst, historic burst, <insert any word> burst
    Well typed HeyNow! I couldn't've typed it better myself.

    Like any business, Gibson has to come up with ways of selling their products, which is usually accomplished by marketing ploys. So, instead of making a guitar to the exact same specs as its original model, they make subtle changes every year, which allows them to market them using phrases such as: "It's our most historically accurate (insert model name) yet!" If they didn't do that, or the buyers didn't fall for it, sales would stagnate, revenues would decline and ultimately... Well, we know how that ends.



  7. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight Blues View Post
    A member posted the following on the Forum for Mr. Koehler's consideration:

    "Hi Mat,
    Back to revamping the L5s, here's list of changes I've compiled over several years of research, maybe this would help out in recreating the original vintage magic. Look how badly they screwed them up in 1970!

    1951-1954 P-90s and plastic Kluson sealfast tuner buttons
    1953 Metal ABR-1 bridge replaces wooden
    1954-1957 Alnico Pickups
    1955 2-foot bridge replaces solid foot, barrel knobs replace speed knobs
    1956 Metal tuner buttons, celluloid binding replaces wood in cutout
    1957 PAF pickups
    Late 1957-58 Rubber grommet added to switch

    1960 Florentine cut began (basically ended in 1969), pickguard screwed to top instead of pinned to side of neck
    1962-1969 Solid backs replaced by ply (starting in 1965 some solid backs were used mostly in Venetian L5s), 3-piece neck replaces 2-piece
    1963 transition year to CTS pots and to black with yellow interior cases
    Late 1965 beginning transition to sombrero knobs, headstock angle changed from 17 to 14 degrees
    1967-2012 Truss rod sheath

    1970 fiberboard headstock overlay replaces wood
    smaller flower pot on headstock
    Volute added (ended in 1982)
    Screw-on pickguard mount used replacing traditional
    MOP inlay added to feet of bridge
    neck set raised much higher making string tension higher
    slope of top near neck changed necessitating turning neck pickup backwards to make pickup even with strings
    stopped fancy truss rod cover
    1976 Cherry and Black finishes added

    1980 Schaller tuning machines replace Kluson Sealfast

    Tailpieces
    1976-1992 no varitone hole
    1976-1983 silver insert
    1984-1992 Black Insert
    1993 silver insert"

    I am in no way verifying the accuracy of the information (there are many of you here that have the expertise in that area), but merely posting it here for informational purposes. If anyone has anything to add or contradict, please let me know and I'd be happy to post on the other Forum.






    Mr. Koehler's response:

    "This is great! And way easier to follow than the archived Engineering Change Notices, haha.

    One you missed -- the body profile changes slightly in the mid 1950s, specifically the cutaway shape!

    Very happy that Kluson is once again manufacturing Sealfast tuners...we were dreading that element of the proper reissue."



  8. #132

    User Info Menu

    Gibson would probably do well opening the M2M program to archtops. Buyer gets to pick the top and back woods and maybe customize a few specs like neck shape.

  9. #133

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight Blues View Post
    A member posted the following on the Forum for Mr. Koehler's consideration:

    "Hi Mat,
    Back to revamping the L5s, here's list of changes I've compiled over several years of research, maybe this would help out in recreating the original vintage magic. Look how badly they screwed them up in 1970!

    1951-1954 P-90s and plastic Kluson sealfast tuner buttons
    1953 Metal ABR-1 bridge replaces wooden
    1954-1957 Alnico Pickups
    1955 2-foot bridge replaces solid foot, barrel knobs replace speed knobs
    1956 Metal tuner buttons, celluloid binding replaces wood in cutout
    1957 PAF pickups
    Late 1957-58 Rubber grommet added to switch

    1960 Florentine cut began (basically ended in 1969), pickguard screwed to top instead of pinned to side of neck
    1962-1969 Solid backs replaced by ply (starting in 1965 some solid backs were used mostly in Venetian L5s), 3-piece neck replaces 2-piece
    1963 transition year to CTS pots and to black with yellow interior cases
    Late 1965 beginning transition to sombrero knobs, headstock angle changed from 17 to 14 degrees
    1967-2012 Truss rod sheath

    1970 fiberboard headstock overlay replaces wood
    smaller flower pot on headstock
    Volute added (ended in 1982)
    Screw-on pickguard mount used replacing traditional
    MOP inlay added to feet of bridge
    neck set raised much higher making string tension higher
    slope of top near neck changed necessitating turning neck pickup backwards to make pickup even with strings
    stopped fancy truss rod cover
    1976 Cherry and Black finishes added

    1980 Schaller tuning machines replace Kluson Sealfast

    Tailpieces
    1976-1992 no varitone hole
    1976-1983 silver insert
    1984-1992 Black Insert
    1993 silver insert"

    I am in no way verifying the accuracy of the information (there are many of you here that have the expertise in that area), but merely posting it here for informational purposes. If anyone has anything to add or contradict, please let me know and I'd be happy to post on the other Forum.






    A couple corrections I can think of is they began to use a mix of lam backs and solid carved backs beginning in '58. There was a period in '64 where a number of L-5s had solid carved backs w narrow curly maple. Gibson must have gotten a small shipment of wood they used for carved backs that year and almost every example I've seen from that era has the same grain pattern, they all must have come from the same tree. Then it was back to lams until '68, carved in '68 then back to lams in '69, then back to carved from '70 to present. Also volutes didn't appear on L-5's until circa '76 or so, not '70


  10. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by wintermoon View Post
    A couple corrections I can think of is they began to use a mix of lam backs and solid carved backs beginning in '58. There was a period in '64 where a number of L-5s had solid carved backs w narrow curly maple. Gibson must have gotten a small shipment of wood they used for carved backs that year and almost every example I've seen from that era has the same grain pattern, they all must have come from the same tree. Then it was back to lams until '68, carved in '68 then back to lams in '69, then back to carved from '70 to present. Also volutes didn't appear on L-5's until circa '76 or so, not '70

    Thanks for your input wm!

    If you'd like, I can post this on the other Forum to see if Mr. Koehler has any other details?



  11. #135

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by wintermoon View Post
    A couple corrections I can think of is they began to use a mix of lam backs and solid carved backs beginning in '58. There was a period in '64 where a number of L-5s had solid carved backs w narrow curly maple. Gibson must have gotten a small shipment of wood they used for carved backs that year and almost every example I've seen from that era has the same grain pattern, they all must have come from the same tree. Then it was back to lams until '68, carved in '68 then back to lams in '69, then back to carved from '70 to present. Also volutes didn't appear on L-5's until circa '76 or so, not '70

    Gibson's main competitor for electric archtops in the 40's and 50's was Epiphone and in the 60's it was Guild (a company that grew from Epiphone's ashes). Epiphone used all laminate construction for all of their electric archtops while Guild used (mostly) laminate backs. Perhaps in the 60's, Gibson's luthiers decided that the laminate back was a good idea for feedback resistance? Or perhaps the bean counters were looking for a way to increase profits? Anybody here have any thoughts?

  12. #136

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Stringswinger View Post
    Gibson's main competitor for electric archtops in the 40's and 50's was Epiphone and in the 60's it was Guild (a company that grew from Epiphone's ashes). Epiphone used all laminate construction for all of their electric archtops while Guild used (mostly) laminate backs. Perhaps in the 60's, Gibson's luthiers decided that the laminate back was a good idea for feedback resistance? Or perhaps the bean counters were looking for a way to increase profits? Anybody here have any thoughts?
    Hmm - musical nuance in an already niche market vs lowered production costs?

    I'll take whatever I can afford and do my best to make it work for my needs/wants/delusions. It's worked for me so far, sort of.

  13. #137

    User Info Menu

    I wonder who would be carving the solid guitars and mandos?

  14. #138

    User Info Menu

    carving by Gibson master luthier, Mr. CNC, QA by Mr. Plek.

  15. #139

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Woody Sound View Post
    I wonder who would be carving the solid guitars and mandos?
    "Are you with me, Mr. Wu?"

    Quote Originally Posted by jazzkritter View Post
    carving by Gibson master luthier, Mr. CNC, QA by Mr. Plek.
    My first thought as well...

  16. #140

    User Info Menu

    With the right hands guiding them, Mr. CNC and Mr. Plek could make as fine an archtop as anyone. And while Mr. CNC can do a perfect job on the rough carve, the finish carving will require the touch of a talented human to get it right.

  17. #141

    User Info Menu

    I know of at least two brands, Dupont and Iris guitars, that use CNC to assist production, both make fine guitars. CNC seems like a very sensible decision in 2021.

  18. #142

    User Info Menu

    Just thoughts: I think Taylor uses CNC extensively. They do make a nice guitar (if that’s what you like) and according to their magazine it’s why they can offer the quality at their price point. I’m thinking with the “size” of the arch top market, Gibson is going to have to minimize production costs as best as possible. CNC. But is that so new?
    No. when they made my L5, they used a cutting jig that was brought down from Kalamazoo (mine built in 1989). I recall the sales rep was told the jig was wearing out and a reason I had a two year wait while they rebuilt it (and got caught up). Lol ‘the jig was up’ as they used to say.
    So what’s the difference if the cutting jig is hand driven or computer driven? It’s still carving to an established pattern, one auto one manual. And, as stringswinger says, after the pattern carve someone cleans it up and voila it’s hand carved.
    But I still maintain everything going on at Gibson is not about guitars, but somehow tied to making the value of the company and products as high as they can before unloading to some other entity. Having high price collectibles fits right in that scheme. It’s the KKR way, get a skinny sick pig, fatten, apply lipstick, and sell. And make money, a reasonable return on their investment.
    Sometimes I miss Henry. This JC guy, I dunno.

  19. #143

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by jazzkritter View Post
    I think Taylor uses CNC extensively.
    And was right out front about it:


  20. #144

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by jazzkritter View Post
    Just thoughts: I think Taylor uses CNC extensively. They do make a nice guitar (if that’s what you like) and according to their magazine it’s why they can offer the quality at their price point. I’m thinking with the “size” of the arch top market, Gibson is going to have to minimize production costs as best as possible. CNC. But is that so new?
    No. when they made my L5, they used a cutting jig that was brought down from Kalamazoo (mine built in 1989). I recall the sales rep was told the jig was wearing out and a reason I had a two year wait while they rebuilt it (and got caught up). Lol ‘the jig was up’ as they used to say.
    So what’s the difference if the cutting jig is hand driven or computer driven? It’s still carving to an established pattern, one auto one manual. And, as stringswinger says, after the pattern carve someone cleans it up and voila it’s hand carved.
    But I still maintain everything going on at Gibson is not about guitars, but somehow tied to making the value of the company and products as high as they can before unloading to some other entity. Having high price collectibles fits right in that scheme. It’s the KKR way, get a skinny sick pig, fatten, apply lipstick, and sell. And make money, a reasonable return on their investment.
    Sometimes I miss Henry. This JC guy, I dunno.
    My pal, Rick Turner (Guitars | RICK TURNER GUITARS) uses a CNC machine. Regarding Taylor guitars, I bought my first Taylor flattop a couple of months ago (a 2001 714CE). What a superb guitar. I have owned many Martin and Guild flattops over the years, but this guitar beats them all. Kudos to that CNC machine!

  21. #145

    User Info Menu

    I've seen a picture of that Gibson copier JKritter talks about. I think I read it was nicknamed The Monster. Looked like it would definitely take a bite out of you if you weren't careful. I'd far rather operate (that is to say watch) a CNC do it's work than operate that thing. It would've been the starting point for a great many of the Gibson's we covet today. The ol' boys weren't dumb. Woodworkers have always looked for a better way.

    Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Mark Campy uses something similar for roughing out. I believe it's the 'duplicarver' in the shop section of his website. I think I read a post here with him talking about it's use. I say do the rough work with a chainsaw if it works for you, and preserve those joints and tendons so you can provide us with more exquisite instruments down the road!

    Any tool, including electric or meat powered, is only as good as the person behind it.

  22. #146

    User Info Menu

    So when I’ve seen videos of recent Gibson tours by Caesar. There always seem to be one or two arch tops being built in the racks in the background.
    So while not being advertised or mentioned, it seems as though they’ve never really stopped making them. It’s just not in full production in any way.

    I think Phillip Wharton is still with them and his arch tops builds were stellar imo! But all that said I can’t imagine paying what they will be charging for one.
    Mark Campellone is still the Best Bet imo!