The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    The Gibson archtop price bashing continues, chapter 534.

    You know what? - if you don't want one, don't get one! Who says working musicians need an L5 anyway? You wouldn't take it to the gig if you had one. If Benson and McLaughlin don't need their Johnny Smith's at the gig, then neither do you.

    You know, I was sorely disappointed yesterday by the auction prices of some paintings of an artist whose work we "invested" in, in the 1990s. So maybe a carved Gibson archtop is a luxury after all - and carved mandolins too. They're not investments, that's for sure.

    In other news, how 'bout them Steinway prices these days, huh? It's so unfair that your average social studies major can't afford one.

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  3. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gitfiddler
    I hope Gibson makes a re-entry into archtop guitar building. Start with the ES-175. Make it great as ever and sell them for a fair price.

    Most folks can't afford $5k - $10k and up for a guitar, but that seems to be Gibson's target market.

    I love the Custom Shop's recent ES-350 tribute to Chuck Berry, but at $10k its ridiculous, especially if its laminate. (The ad does not state)

    Gibson | Chuck Berry 1955 ES-350T
    I played one of those Chuck Berry guitars at Chicago Music Exchange, it made every and I mean EVERY other guitar I'd ever played feel like a toy. Hands down the best guitar I've ever played.

  4. #28

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    I can't wait to see the colors. Pink and blue camouflage, brown and yellow sunburst?

  5. #29

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    If I may:

    Our existing range of archtops is incongruent with the current Custom Shop, so we want to discontinue the current range and incrementally introduce all-new models.

    Doesn't sound good for the instruments we love. Introducing the L-21, the jazz-box for the twenty-first century!

    The corporate speak is so finely crafted that it could mean anything. Even the complete elimination of archtops as we think of them. On many guitar sites Les Pauls and ES-335s are 'archtops' due to their arched tops.

    (btw: if anything i'm more a glass-half-full than empty guy :-)

  6. #30

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    To be business smart is to be smart relative to supply and demand.

    If the demand for the classics is there and the supply is not - but they can fill it - then they probably will.

    And yes, the pricing model proceeds from there.

    Besides, what a person can afford in lockdown can vary widely from “open “ times. You would not believe the money I have saved in lockdown since March of 2020. Auto related costs being but one example. An archtop would have been easy, but I need to actually thin the herd.

  7. #31

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    Just my opinion, but over the last couple of years it looks like Heritage has been able to secure a sweet spot between building high quality American built solid body guitars, laminate semi-hollow, laminate hollow and just two carved archtops. Carved H-575's are $3,999 and an Eagle Classic will set you back $4,799.

    And that's just their 'standard' line. Heritage's Custom Shop will still build carved 'limited edition' or full custom Golden Eagle ($8,999 and up) or other custom archtops that are only limited to the size of your wallet.

    My point is that there still is a market for high quality US made archtops. How to satisfy that market niche and still be profitable is a tightrope Gibson may be struggling with and needs to re-learn. Their corporate-speak announcement may be their way of letting the market know they are working on an archtop 'come-back' plan.

  8. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gitfiddler
    Just my opinion, but over the last couple of years it looks like Heritage has been able to secure a sweet spot between building high quality American built solid body guitars, laminate semi-hollow, laminate hollow and just two carved archtops. Carved H-575's are $3,999 and an Eagle Classic will set you back $4,799.

    And that's just their 'standard' line. Heritage's Custom Shop will still build carved 'limited edition' or full custom Golden Eagle ($8,999 and up) or other custom archtops that are only limited to the size of your wallet.

    My point is that there still is a market for high quality US made archtops. How to satisfy that market niche and still be profitable is a tightrope Gibson may be struggling with and needs to re-learn. Their corporate-speak announcement may be their way of letting the market know they are working on an archtop 'come-back' plan.
    It strikes me as a lot of noise with a little bit of signal.
    The signal is the new direction (Archtops with robotuners) and the noise is
    "hey we're going to be doing that thing we've been doping for 100 years so don't panic"

  9. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gitfiddler
    Just my opinion, but over the last couple of years it looks like Heritage has been able to secure a sweet spot between building high quality American built solid body guitars, laminate semi-hollow, laminate hollow and just two carved archtops. Carved H-575's are $3,999 and an Eagle Classic will set you back $4,799.

    And that's just their 'standard' line. Heritage's Custom Shop will still build carved 'limited edition' or full custom Golden Eagle ($8,999 and up) or other custom archtops that are only limited to the size of your wallet.

    My point is that there still is a market for high quality US made archtops. How to satisfy that market niche and still be profitable is a tightrope Gibson may be struggling with and needs to re-learn. Their corporate-speak announcement may be their way of letting the market know they are working on an archtop 'come-back' plan.
    The previous owner was making fancy, carved, 5A wood adorned archtops like they were going out of style, and the guitar part of Gibson WAS profitable - remember?

    Economies of scale and limited production makes it happen. Sounds familiar, doesn’t it?

  10. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar
    The Gibson archtop price bashing continues, chapter 534.

    You know what? - if you don't want one, don't get one! Who says working musicians need an L5 anyway? You wouldn't take it to the gig if you had one. If Benson and McLaughlin don't need their Johnny Smith's at the gig, then neither do you.
    Back in the day, Gibson made guitars for professional guitarists. In the mid 50's a new ES-175D was about $300 with a case. Using an inflation calculator that should be about $2900 today. If Gibson put out a new sunburst ES-175D for even as much as $3500, I think professional guitarists would buy them. At $5000 plus, probably not many pros will be shelling out the cash. Doctors, lawyers and software engineers will, and that is who Gibson is catering to. They have become the guitar company for the silk stocking trade, not the guitar company for professional musicians. As fewer of us are able to make a living playing music, Gibson is probably smart in their approach.

    Of course there will be the living room hacks who play Asian made guitars of a quality nowhere near that of a Gibson who will scream about how their $1500 guitar is better. I ignore that noise myself.

  11. #35

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    Yes I paid about $800 for a 175 in 1982. Not chicken feed, but not ungodly either.

    If Gibson wants to cater to the ultra boutique market, fine for them, but we don’t have to care about them either. We can still enjoy our vintage and foreign-made archies which cost less than a kidney.

  12. #36

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    Stringswinger - Yes, those were very different times.

    Rock happened, electronics happened, signal processing happened, guitar companies out the wazoo happened etc.

    The simple truth is that the overwhelming majority of musical sound produced in America on a guitar or guitars of some sort, is NOT made by an ES-175 or L5CES.

    So, relative to the recording industry, these models exist in another space, another time and place. Those of us who nevertheless demand them get to pay the price. Would folks be happier if they didn’t exist at all?

  13. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
    Yes I paid about $800 for a 175 in 1982. Not chicken feed, but not ungodly either.

    If Gibson wants to cater to the ultra boutique market, fine for them, but we don’t have to care about them either. We can still enjoy our vintage and foreign-made archies which cost less than a kidney.
    ”Ultra boutique” market? There you go exaggerating again.

    $10-$15K is NOT ultra boutique.

    If that’s what you want to talk about, you need to embrace reality. Maybe start with Stringswinger’s D’Angelico, lol. ***

    Without naming names I can tell you for certain that owners of truly boutique archtop guitars look straight down their noses at L5s, as if they were Ford trucks in a Lamborghini world, or some such.


    *** Price drop $17K
    1954 John D'Angelico Excel Wine Burst...this is truly as Good | Reverb

    D'Angelico 1958 Natural G3 | Miami Vintage Guitars Inc | Reverb

    D'Angelico 1938 Style A-1 Sunburst SN# 1369 with Hardshell | Reverb
    Last edited by Donplaysguitar; 09-12-2021 at 11:04 PM.

  14. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stringswinger
    Back in the day, Gibson made guitars for professional guitarists. In the mid 50's a new ES-175D was about $300 with a case. Using an inflation calculator that should be about $2900 today. If Gibson put out a new sunburst ES-175D for even as much as $3500, I think professional guitarists would buy them. At $5000 plus, probably not many pros will be shelling out the cash.
    Inflation calculators aren't the only economic tool. This one is only in "good" condition. Price is a little different.

    GIBSON Es-175N de 1953 | Le Guitarium | Reverb

  15. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar
    Inflation calculators aren't the only economic tool.
    Sure, raw material depletion will make guitars made from traditional tonewoods more expensive today than simply using inflation as a guide. Bear in mind that in the 50's and 60's, Gibson built the iconic guitars using union labor, today they do not. Of course, back then, liability insurance, workman compensation insurance and medical insurance were much cheaper. Doing business in today's America is expensive. I believe that Gibson started charging higher prices under Henry J.'s watch to help finance his various ventures. The new owners are trying to recoup some of the money that they lent Henry for those ventures. The brand's iconic status has allowed sales to continue at those inflated prices. I guess it all works out. The free market prevails. If you cannot afford a Gibson, you don't get to have one. It is as simple as that. That said, they are amazing guitars. I am sure glad to have a few in my collection.

  16. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stringswinger
    They have become the guitar company for the silk stocking trade
    Nailed it.

  17. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight Blues
    So we want to discontinue the current range, build all the current orders and incrementally introduce all-new models at a later time with way more capacity and many more skilled team members building them.
    I'm glad that they are planning to build all the current orders before launching the new historic models. Good news for all those that have placed an order months ago and were anxious they might be waiting in vain.

  18. #42

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    Sounds Like a Lotta corporate double speak to me. I’m glad the guys that have orders in will get those finished before gibson does whatever it’s going to do. which to me doesn’t sound encouraging at all . I’m glad I don’t have any trouble buying from the used market because that’s where the good guitars are,

    Big

  19. #43

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    Wait, so now you guys are displeased because they are GOING to start producing the iconic models again? Can't win.


    Here's a challenge:

    As a trusted advisor to the CEO, what BETTER IDEA do you have regarding business strategy and archtops?

  20. #44

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    If one prefers "affordable guitars" (whatever that means) they can shop other brands - but they don't have to. They can buy an Epiphone.

    And to one of my earlier points, "working musicians" don't play archtops, especially carved ones. They play ES-335s, Les Pauls, Stratocasters, and Telecasters, and variants of same.

    Let's get real.

  21. #45

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    After waiting over 20 years to get an ES-175 and ES-335, I'm happy I got them in 2013 for $1800 and $1100. I'm going to get them out and play them now...

  22. #46

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    Gibson, Harley Davidson, Red Wing boots. Iconic American brands with iconic styles. All very pricey and all worth it to me.
    All 3 companies started around the same time and are still here for a reason. People want them and will pay the price.

    Personally I can’t wait. Hopefully Gibson like Harley will stick to old school type styling with the new archtop line.

  23. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar
    Wait, so now you guys are displeased because they are GOING to start producing the iconic models again? Can't win.


    Here's a challenge:

    As a trusted advisor to the CEO, what BETTER IDEA do you have regarding business strategy and archtops?
    Not displeased, didn't say that. I'm pleased that those who have already placed an order will receive their guitars as ordered. I'm not advising the CEO, I have the point of view of a buyer and as such I expect (and dislike) a price increase for the new archtop range, covered up by the usual marketing babble. If I were to advise the CEO, I'd tell him to honor the brand name by improving the quality control and customer service, which is practically non-existent over here in Europe.

  24. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by vinnyv1k
    Gibson, Harley Davidson, Red Wing boots. Iconic American brands with iconic styles. All very pricey and all worth it to me.
    All 3 companies started around the same time and are still here for a reason. People want them and will pay the price.

    Personally I can’t wait. Hopefully Gibson like Harley will stick to old school type styling with the new archtop line.
    I am a fan of all three of those brands. I too am glad to hear about archtops coming back to Gibson's line. I just wish the price point was not so inflated (maybe by then the bankers who now own Gibson will determine that they can sell more guitars at a slightly lower price point and thereby increase profits). Hope springs eternal.

  25. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by dconeill
    Reasonably priced? Unlikely.
    Yeah, not with both "Historic" and "Reissue" in the name!

  26. #50

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    There has always been love / hate with Gibson. Nothing new.
    Love the guitar but hate the price.
    It all boils down to what emotion wins personally that decides
    ownership of one.
    Personally I’ve worked many 80 hour weeks to get one.

    Thankfully there are many Asian choices at affordable prices that will make great music also.

    American labor is going to cost you more than any other country that makes guitars period. Even the cost of a Heritage has gone up substantially.

    You can still get a great American made archtop from private builders at a very reasonable price like Campellone, Triggs, Borys, Holst.

    Gibson has always been a deep pocket company.

    In 1939 a new car was around $700 for a good Ford. A Super 400 was well $400. Today a good Ford around $30K and a S400 $16K. Nothing has really changed. Gibson’s always have cost a lot and inflation just stokes the coals.