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Epiphone made just that, the ES-175 Premium. It's a great guitar. But they didn't seem to sell. In a capitalist society, companies produce what sells in volume, not what a tiny niche market might want. And we're talking the tiniest of niches here.
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12-27-2021 07:47 PM
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There must not be a market strong enough to warrant such a thing. Given that - who cares? (No one, apparently).
You can always get a laminated Benedetto. I'll bet if you wanted a thicker carve or body mod they'd do that too.
When one door closes another opens.
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Other companies seem to do just fine selling laminated archtops. Sweetwater lists over 200 hollow bodies—Gretch, Godin, PRS, D’Angelico, etc.
Originally Posted by sgosnell
Yes they do list a couple of Epi Swingsters and Casinos, as well as the Broadway—interesting, since it’s not on Epi’s website. But no Gibsons.
It’s just an unfortunate state of affairs that Gibson, the storied archtop maker, offers virtually no jazz archtops currently, and what we are left with are vague promises of undoubtedly expensive recreations maybe possibly to come in 2023.
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Most of those 200 hollow-bodied guitars at Sweetwater are flattops. Everybody wants a 335, or a Country Gentleman, but archtops are not fashionable. Nobody talks about them on The Gear Page, except to confuse them with semi-hollows.
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not sure they make a laminated maple archtop other than the benny [edit] I should have said "MAPLE LAMINATED" guitars... Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar
Last edited by jzucker; 12-28-2021 at 10:16 AM.
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Most of these hollow bodies don’t look flat to me, but I am due for an eye exam coming up. Originally Posted by Litterick
Hollowbody Guitars | Sweetwater
It looks like it is possible to get a sweet archtop at just about any price, just not one that rhymes with Chibson.
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Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar
Benedetto Benny Originally Posted by jzucker
Florentine / no soundholes
carved spruce top
chambered mahogany body
1 5/8” deep | 25” scale | 1 11/16” or 1 3/4” nut width
Benedetto Bambino / Bambino Deluxe
Florentine / no soundholes on Bambino, slash soundholes on Deluxe
Set-in pickup
laminated maple top
laminated maple back
laminated maple rims
14 1/2” x 2 1/4” | 25” scale | 1 11/16” nut
Benedetto Bravo / Bravo Deluxe
venetian / f-holes
Set-in pickup
laminated spruce top
laminated maple back
solid maple rims
16” x 2 1/2” | 25” scale | 1 3/4” nut
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One way to get rid of unwanted members of the crew is to close the business unit they are in and then relaunch it after some time reorganized. Considering the supposed quality problems that may have been the right thing to do. This also gives the opportunity to break some good news. The guys and gals that built guitars for Joe and Barney and Steve have probably not been around for some time anyway.
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Sorry you missed the comparison, DJ. It was ,really, written quite clearly about a manufacturer's commitment to quality/image in re:Gibson. Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
Marinero
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"If someone gave me $150K to buy a new Bentley, I’d buy 5 Miatas in different colors. Oh, OK, maybe 4 Miatas and a Jeep." Doctor Jeff
Hmmmmmmmmmm. Don't you love Capitalism and free market economies!
Marinero
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Please don't tell me you are comparing gibson's commitment to quality with bentley??? Originally Posted by Marinero
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The Benedettos though, as fine instruments as they may be, have a very different sound. I have three friends that had Benedettos, they all sold them or traded them with Gibsons eventually..
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i had a bravo. Nice guitar, sounded nothing like a classic gibson. The benedetto bambino deluxe is a nice guitar and I'd love to have one but it doesn't get the classic gibson sound. It's a great semihollow jazz guitar but then, so is a 335... Originally Posted by Alter
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The Bambino is a very nice guitar. I had a Bambino, and currently have a Bambino Deluxe. It's a smaller, thinner model, and is certainly not an ES175, but it is fully hollow, not a semi. If you absolutely, positively must have "175 thunk" a Benedetto is not for you, not any model. They don't even attempt to copy Gibson, and are proud of that. IME their quality is higher and much more consistent than Gibson, but they do not in any way copy Gibson. You either like them or you don't, but the quality is unquestionable.
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Looks like some love/hate is going on here.
Looks like some folks blew their chance at getting an old 175 when they could have.
Others lament Gibson not offering them now, even though they’re certain that the quality would be unacceptably low and the price too high - so they wouldn’t buy them anyway.
How depressing.
As for me, I’ve never wanted a 175 and don’t want one now. To each his own I guess.
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Here's a perfect example of what the market has become.
This guy is comparing MIC Casinos to USA ones, but it could just add easily be Gibson vs cheaper guitars:
You notice he's more interested in the color and the direction of the inlays than anything so pedestrian as build quality, tone, playability, etc. This video makes me wince all over...
Don't get me wrong, I'm sure the USA model is superior. The point is, just look at what the majority of people who buy guitars really care about.
Gibson, as a company, isn't for people like us anymore.
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I confess I'm missing the point of the original Bentley comparison. Originally Posted by jzucker
However...Bentley is currently owned by VW. They do make about 11,000 cars a year, which start at $150K and go up from there. Apparently that division has been profitable for quite awhile.
The situation would be analogous if Gibson spun off a separate luxury guitar division that made guitars costing $15K and up for collectors and such. (Which does sound kind of like what is being proposed.)
VW as a whole has all kinds of cars at all kinds of price points (including Porsche, Audi and Bugatti). I guess they stopped offering their iconic Beetle a few years ago. But they still make cheapish cars for enthusiasts like the Passat GLI and Golf GTI. (Very few manual transmissions though.)
My argument all along is that it seems like Gibson and Epiphone are pretty much out of the archtop business for enthusiasts (i.e., amateurs and working class pros). Which is a shame, in my opinion. I think it could be otherwise based on what other companies like Godin and D'Angelico are doing, but that's just my opinion.
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All this class conflict "affordability" stuff doesn't resonate with me. I bought a brand new LCES while I was in college. I was a bartender.
I think it's more about priorities.
Some people buy Benedettos, others buy bass boats.
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Gibson haven't successfully innovated since the last 50's. They opened a custom shop in the early 80's to finally give the market what it really wanted; reissued burst Les Pauls and models made pre 1960. Till then it was almost out of business.
Several decades later and it nearly went bust again.
Successive profiteers have cost the brand so much market share and good will, it's hard to see the new ones turning things around by simply charging more. They tried that with the VOS series which netted the brand more bad blood, due to the poor QC and the sheer brazenness of the prices. Are they going to double down on that strategy? let's hope not.
An obvious option the company that currently owns the Gibson name a trademarks has, is to cash in on the people who identity with the brand as they've done with the Les Paul R9's etc.. but ironically they've been doing that for 40 years with a varying degree of success. Which is to say, falling into bankruptcy.
Are there enough people that still identify with the Gibson brand? Their single biggest demographic is still going strong and they are brand loyal. I don't blame them; great looking and sounding guitars, when done right. That last bit though being the biggest problem and are they replacing their biggest ageing demographic quickly enough? If demographic numbers are anything to go buy, then the answer is no.
I hope they pull through. I appreciate the guys that love their Gibson's and who wouldn't want them, to get what they desire? Gibson are still some of the best looking and often best sounding, mass produced guitars and the brand has been there to help a lot of great musicians play and record some phenomenal music.
But with prices only suitable for western collectors and very wealthy people in the east, how is Gibson getting amazing guitars into the hands of young working class players, like the musicians from the previous century, that propelled the brand forward till today? If they are priced out, then the current owners aren't paying forward, what the brand gained from the past.
To end on a joke, I would say that Gibson don't sell guitars. Blues and Rock players from the 60's and 70's do.
Has anything really changed?Last edited by Archie; 12-28-2021 at 02:38 PM.
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@archtopheaven, i disagree with this statement:
The biggest single demographic to date is still going strong
boomers who love tal farlow and johnny smith and even blues players who love bb king and mike bloomfield aren't the biggest demographic. If you study the market, the biggest buying demographic is the hardcore metal players. IMO, the reason gibson went bankrupt and will likely continue to struggle is that they have little to offer the only growing demographic of guitarists. Outside of hardcore metal, there are few guitarists in pop music except for country. And ironically, the boomers seem to hate guys like John Mayer who is one of the few pop stars actively making guitar part of his act.
It'll be interesting to see how the guitar market moves forward but I don't think it will be through Les Pauls and L5s. Those players are getting older and not buying at the rates of even the 1980s.
Back to the original topic, I saw a video about how gibson had to study vintage les pauls to see how they were made to tool their factories up. I don't see them doing that with '50s and '60s L5s and 175s... I still think that in some respects, they are competing against themselves. The only advantage they have is that by discontinuing their archtops, they have driven the prices of the used instruments up to where they can compete with them in price. Previously, who was going to buy a $6000 175 when you could get a used one for 1/2 the price? Now the used ones are going for over $5000. I'm guessing this was part of their strategy...
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Well I bought a new 175 when I was in college working as an orderly during the summers. Cost me about $900 with the case. It helped that I was going on a scholarship and didn't have to worry about having to cover tuition. Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar
I don't think today's college students could easily afford a new Gibson archtop even if they had continued making them, regardless of their priorities. (Cost has risen much more than inflation to boot.) And what we're talking about from the OP sounds like very high end stuff, so really unaffordable for the average Joe.
I don't think it's unreasonable to point this out. As said, other companies have found a way to sell archtops at more reasonable prices. Depends on priorities I agree--Gibson's.
I think one could argue that bad investments in non-guitar areas doomed Gibson, not the guitar biz itself. Selling guitars as a "lifestyle item" ala Harleys wasn't able to keep them afloat admittedly. I personally think that devotion to brand is waning, and trying to get by on LPs and other heritage models as they are doing is not a good recipe, but I could be wrong. Originally Posted by ArchtopHeaven
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Glad we've all got this sorted out for Gibson. We should send them a bill for our consulting services.
Just curious...
Going back to the OP, based on what we know, A) how likely is it that Gibson will bring out the historic reissue archtop line in 2023, and B) what is your estimate of how much they would charge if they do bring them out?
My guesses are: 25%, and $12-20K. An L5 CES would have to be at least $15K I would think.
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That's good for you man, but I don't think the comparison holds up. Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar
I've own several Gibsons. They used to be affordable. A bit more pricey than comparable guitars, but worth the extra scratch.
To me, that's just not true anymore. They are in another strata and I can't justify the price when other very good guitars can be had at a fraction of the cost.
It used to be a 10-15 percent premium. Now it's 300 percent, at least.
They have priced me out of the market. If you don't mind paying such prices, good for you. Really! I hope you enjoy it. I'll admit, I may be envious!
But I just got a used D'Angelico for $600. Outrageously good guitar. Pretty, too.
It may not have everything a 175 has. I can admit. But it's got a lot.
If I could find a 175 for $800, $1000, heck even $1500, I'd probably buy it! But mediocre examples from the last 20 years are going for 3k?
It's just not worth it.
I hope you are enjoying your "LCES." (Which one?)
I used to have a 1944 L7. Stupidly, I sold it. Bought it cheap, sold it cheap. I've regretted it even before the prices got crazy!
Don't sell yours!
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i don't know who the target audience is for that. I think most of the guitar companies have serious marketing issues. At least gibson keeps the Epiphone line to distinguish their brand but ibanez and seventy seven have polluted their model lineups with cheap copies of their instruments that have virtually the same model names as the expensive japanese lines. If you go search for a GB10 now, there are korean, chinese and japanese ones with the sellers often deliberately obfuscating which ones they are selling. That seems to me like a marketing disaster. I have the feeling that covid is going to provide cover for a big marketing shakeup/correction among all these guitar companies... Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
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I think the majority of the active users of this forum (me included) are men over 50. Our needs/wants are very different from those who are younger.
Here are some of my thoughts:
The death of the guitar and even the archtop guitar has not happened yet and probably will never happen. Fashions come and go and come back again.
Cheap guitars made in Asian countries may still be driving the market, but that too will come to an end. Guitars made in China cost way more today than they did just a year ago.
Desirable/traditional tonewoods are becoming scarce.
I foresee a market for archtop guitars existing beyon the lifetime of all who read this post today. I think iconic archtops like many made by Gibson will remain in high demand for many years to come. The demand will exceed supply of extant Gibson archtops and there will be a market for new ones. The current owners of the Gibson brand are not stupid nor are their top managers. They will bring archtops to the market in due time using the tonewoods we all want. The price point will anger many and the quality will remain an unknown.
Prognosticating the future of Gibson archtops is a fools errand. A year or two ago, many here were predicting a fall in archtop prices based on buying demographics. The opposite has happened.
When it come to buying an asset that has high demand, the old adage "the best time to plant a tree is yesterday" applies.
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