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That is enough to give a man religion!
Originally Posted by laap45
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07-04-2021 12:37 AM
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From what I gathered from talking to Howard, Jimmy is a good friend but not a good steward of the brand for some of the reasons you mentioned and likely for some of Jimmy’s rants on YouTube. However, Howard clearly has a lot of affection for him. Howard also told a very funny story about the jalapeño inlay on the tailpiece of Jimmy’s guitar, but you’ll have to hear that one from Howard. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
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The reason that Jimmy no longer plays a Benedetto has nothing to do with his treatment of the guitars that they put in his hands, but whether or not it is what he exclusively plays online or live public appearances and gigs. Some urban jazz clubs are less than safe spaces for fine guitars. Many have small stages, generally tight quarters and some require air travel with all that brings to it. Sometimes, a less expensive, imported semi-hollowbody with a BUD 6 amp makes more sense for the job. Jimmy is also fortunate to be a neighbor of luthier Bill Comins. Bill has been maintaining and setting up Jimmy’s guitars for years. He now plays one of Bill’s guitars.
This is the reason for the parting of ways as a company sponsored player. Despite this parting of ways, Jimmy and Howard (and Bob) remain good friends.
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I had a chance to play one of Jimmy's Benedetto 7 strings when I took lessons from him in the mid-90's. At the time he was a Camel Straight smoker, and yes, that guitar was rode hard and put up wet. Cig burns on headstock by nut, plenty of fretboard gunge. Not long after that he told me his Doc called while he was getting on a plane and said he better get back to his office ASAP for a look see. I'm pretty sure he quit.
Not to be sarcastic or anything, but I can't believe that I am the only guy here out gigging with my Bob built, 31 year old Benedetto. I am very aware of the monetary value and put it in the case at break time. It is not showroom-has a couple of minor music stand dings. I don't play it on outdoor gigs when it's too hot or too cold. I have a Eastman Pisano 880 for that. And to be honest, we're not playing Bucket O' Blood beer joints where a Redneck could get pissed off about our version of "Jeannine".
To me, the guitar let's me express myself to my highest level, inspires my playing and makes me smile like no other. It's a musical instrument, that's why Bob built it-to be making music.
Attachment 83119
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Unfortunately, cigarettes and Jimmy are still good friends…
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After all this praise, I still wonder whether Bob Benedetto will eventually reach the mythical status of John D'Angelico (who essentially copied the L5, I'm told by so many posters) or Jimmy D'Aquisto (who refined and modernized the design, but went into questionable cooperation with Hagstrom). I think he should. His designs are original and from more than one template. Perhaps his reputation suffers from openness, overt marketing, industrial associations, and being too close to today. After all, few of this Forum's opinion-makers have a direct connection to the D'As, whereas this thread alone reveals many touch-and-go's with Bob. Time will tell.
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Originally Posted by jads57
I acquired a used Bravo model a few years ago. and was underwhelmed by it
it was necessary to replace the failed pickup ( a known problem I discovered)
the electrics were shot , a rewire necessary, still unhappy with it , it moved on.
Last year I received my Campellone Deluxe, faultless in every respect and
absolutely superb. The finish is the best I have ever seen, and I've had a huge
number of Gibsons and others over a very long period of time. I wholeheartedly
concur with jads57 comments above ,regarding vfm. having seen examples of
Elferink and Holst Guitars.
Best SF
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I would guess that the current crop of D'Angelico branded guitars from Korea, Indonesia and China will tarnish the DA name much more than the Guild/Howard Paul Benedetto's will tarnish Bob Benedetto's reputation. Originally Posted by Gitterbug
I have a fair amount of experience with both "brands" and can say that a genuine John D'Angelico made guitar and a genuine, Bob Benedetto made guitar are indeed heirloom guitars worthy of any "mythical" status that may be attributed to them.
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I gig with my Fratello too, although there haven’t been gigs lately with all the COVID restrictions. Originally Posted by SierraTango
Keith
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I'm sorry if I wasn't clear - I wasn't trying to suggest that this was the case, and I know that your observation is true. I agree that a decent laminated box and small amplifier are the way to go, and I practice this myself with an Ibanez AF207 and a Little Jazz. But to be honest, we're not the only ones with this consideration and it doesn't seem to stop players of other equally valuable instruments. A fine old Selmer Mk 6 tenor is worth as much as any guitar Jimmy's ever played - Bob Berg's '54 is for sale right now for $75k. Even ratty looking but well maintained ones that sound good and play well sell for north of $10k. And everyone I know who has one plays it everywhere but treats it with great respect. If carved guitars weren't so sensitive to climate and didn't stick out so far past my body, I'd play one on every jazz gig. Originally Posted by iim7V7IM7
My comment to Jimmy about this was not delivered as a rebuke but as a humorous observation made immediately after commenting on what a great guitar it was and how wonderful he sounded playing it. His response suggested more to me about his sense of humor (or lack thereof) than anything else. We were not friends, but he did know me as a fellow Philadelphian and guitar player (I'd played the same club a few weeks before, although without a cover charge and for a local crowd there more to enjoy the night than to hear us). I was truly surprised to see how badly he treated such a wonderful instrument.
When he was much younger, he could be very difficult and had a reputation (locally, at least) as less than a nice guy. I know two of his early drummers very well (one's been working with me regularly for over a decade), and I've heard consistent snippets from several mutual suppliers like Evans amps. I didn't know him well enough to have an opinion based on extensive interaction, and he was decent to me the few times we did interact. He's been through some difficult times more recently, and I'm told he's not quite so abrasive any more. But things like his 2019 YouTube video entitled something like "They All Got It Wrong" have me wondering how much of his facade is dry humor and how much is a chip on his shoulder. (I tried to embed the video, but it comes up "playback has been disabled on other sites".)
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I owned one of Bob's early 7-strings for awhile, and was happy to sell it. It was in mint condition, and I was terrified of putting a scratch on it. It was a very nice guitar, but acoustically underwhelming, probably related to it being in a collector's showcase, and on a Guitar Center wall for its entire life, almost unplayed. A guitar doesn't stay mint for more than 35 years being played regularly. I won it in an auction for very little money, purely as an investment, and that paid off handsomely. I just couldn't afford to keep the guitar, because I needed the money. I wish I still had it, but the new roof on my house is what I needed more, then and now. I hope the dentist who bought it is enjoying it.
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One of Bob's personally built guitars from the late 1980's thru early 1990's would be the only ones I would be interested in. They are the keepers and Bob makes a fine guitar. The stuff he later did with manufacturing like Guild and then his own stuff done by factory just holds no real interest. It is not they are bad guitars or anything but lots of other guitars will do the same thing. However, one of Bob's personally built carved-tops are something that really stand out on their own.
If one is looking for the electric plywood sound then really it all begins and ends with Gibson in a 175, 165, Tal, or even an ES-275. Not that there are not alternatives to these guitars but that the Gibson's have and will fair, much better in the market when one has to sell or there heirs sell. Everyday that goes by in the guitar world seems to increasingly confirm Gibson's are holding on to value better than anything else really. I hear many clips of fellows playing guitars and various set ups but right now the Dutchbopper is far winning the sound and soul of a laminated guitar. His best work and the best sounds in jazz guitar coming out of a 175 and a Tal.
Getting back to the Benedetto thread part, Bob's carved tops have little to do with the laminated sound and ect.... But they strike a certain place that a 175 or Tal will never be able to go.....
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What many posters say boils down to: Bob Benedetto's personally hand-carved guitars are AAA+ investment grade, while factory-made laminates aren't worth more than many others of the same genre. My questions are: 1) Do the carved instruments sound good enough to deserve a podium place with the D'As, and 2) given that's hard to improve on the build quality of a laminated Benedetto, could a different PU be the solution? The A6 and B6 PUs have quite different specs, but there's a whole universe of alternatives around them. Ernst Weinbach, a Benedetto reseller in Germany before the company decided on web trade only, routinely changed the A6 PU on the Bravos. It would take some desktop archaeology to recall what he suggested as a substitute.
Knowing what we know of the evolution of Gibson L-5 from a thin-top acoustic instrument into a heavier build suited for electric playing, Bob Benedetto and other luthiers of his era have had to strike an acoustic/electric balance - not an easy feat. Will Benedettos be gigged with in the future? I think the time is near when the carved ones won't leave their class cages, while laminates still face a long service.
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I've owned an early 90's Stroudsburg built Benedetto Cremona and Manhatten , and I currently own a Savanagh Bravo and Nashville built Fratello. In my opinion , Bob's golden period is represented by the instruments built in Stroudsburg PA, and his finest licensed instruments were those those built under his " hands on " guidance with Mark Piper and Evan Ellis at the Guild custom shop in Nashville. If I recall, not too many Archtops where made in Nashville, then Mark and Evan were sending parts to Corona, until the Nashville operation was closed down . Bob had a constant presence in Nashville, and much less in Corona according to Mark Piper.
I frequented the Stroudsburg shop many times and witnessed Bob's brilliant fixturing and production process - which was carried over to Nashville according to my conversations with Mark Piper. When Bob was putting together the Savannah shop he wanted Mark and Evan to join him. Evan went on to Savannah and Mark Piper moved to Texas - currently building under the Redentore brand.
Stan Jay had once quoted Bob as stating " No one builds my guitars better than Mark and Evan". I can honestly say that my Nashville Benedetto Fratello is equal to anything I've played in Stroudsburg, and better than my previous Cremona. It is equal to my prior Manhatten in every way - and that was a fantastic guitar. I've also played several Corona Benedettos and found them to be less inspiring , with heavier finishes.
As for market valuation, unfortunately once Bob started the license ventures (and Savannah) his personal built instruments dropped considerably, and have remained that way. The Savannah operation produces some very nice guitars, and according to a recent interview with Howard Paul on YT, the pandemic has increased some demand on his flagship guitars, but I believe it's the Bravo that keeps them in business. As for Bob, he's been retired for a few years.
For those seeking an alternate to a Benedetto Stroudsburg ( or Savannah) build, find yourself a Nashville built Benedetto instead - they are your best value ....you won't be disappointed. Besides that, find a used Stroudsburg build over a new Savannah Flagship build - the later of which are no longer touched by Bob hands.
As for people commenting that Benedettos sound too acoustic.....well that's what they are designed to be " Acoustic Archtop guitars". They do not deliver the tight thumpy flat wound sound of an Ibanez GB , or ES series with chrome 14's - and they don't( need to) sound like a Gibson.
Sent from my SM-P610 using Tapatalk
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If you compare listed sale prices, Benedetto laminate models are no more expensive than many others, and cheaper than many. See this thread: Sadowsky laminate archtop prices: YIKES
A Bravo is only $5500, and built entirely in the US. Carved solid top models aren't that much more than Gibsons. I don't understand the seemingly common belief that Benedettos are prohibitively expensive.
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Again my opinion is my own and no disrespect to those who own Benedetto Archtops and love them and their tonality. In fact I love the Bambino design and feel it's an improvement over the ES-175 In many ways.
But when it comes to carved top guitars I much prefer the thicker plates ala Gibson, D'Angelico, etc. style instruments.
And since Bob isn't actually doing the carving, I'm not sure what attributes to the premium prices with many of these instruments. I guess brand recognition.
I've also played many of his former apprentices instruments and can definitely say both Bill Comins and John Buscarino build superb archtops!
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When you buy a carved-top Gibson, do you know who's carved it? You'll probably find out who's signed it off. Bob Benedetto worked alone or with apprentices for decades. How do we know it was just he drilling the pilot holes to the slab, doing the crude chiseling work, gradually going towards the final thickness, shaping the recurve, or just tapping for the tone and putting on some finishing touches? Other parts of the guitars are even more likely to have been touched by other hands than the Mythical Master's alone. Old paintings and sculptures are attributed to great artists even if, in their heyday, there may have been a swarm of eager apprentices doing much of the routine work. I have high respect for Bob but equally high for anyone he taught, including the current Savannah master luthier Damon Mailand. At the same time, it would be interesting to hear what qualified players think of contemporary all-carved Benedettos. Who's buying them anyway? Any guitar that has spent much of its life in a collector's glass cage certainly requires a lot of playing to reveal its true nature.
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Why questionable? Originally Posted by Gitterbug
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I don't know the full story, and hope those in the know will correct me. What I gather is that he imported or tried to import Hagstrom-made bodies to USA, to be finished as his own. At any rate, in my opinion, the Hagström "Jimmy" birch laminate jazz boxes are heavy and less than inspiring instruments. Never owned one, but have tried them on several occasions from the 1960's up until quite recently. Originally Posted by aquin43
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Interesting. I only knew of his role in designing for Hagstrom. I have a round soundhole "Jimmy" and its a great little guitar. It has a block between front and back under the bridge, so it could be classed as a semi-acoustic. I think the f-hole ones are the same. Originally Posted by Gitterbug
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My point was that although non Bob Benedetto are fine instruments, they are quite expensive due to brand identity.
Where as Mark Campellone, Frans Elferink, etc. are solely the luthiers on their builds and quite reasonable for equally fine Archtops.
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Somehow, "expensive due to brand identity" is a positive for Gibson.
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There are an awful lot of Gibson's I'm not fond of either. Especially the Norlin Era offerings. And as I said if people are happy to pay that amount for either a Norlin Gibson and or a Benedetto branded archtop, more power to them.
I just don't think you are getting a better or more valuable instrument than other similar offerings,especially in the used marketplace these days.
But to each their own, and I only am one option of many here in this forum.
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I thought this was a Benedetto “appreciation” thread. Originally Posted by jads57
Keith
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Sorry this was in response to the above post by Gitterbug.
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