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  1. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by bluejaybill
    And then, if I understand correctly, the legacy continued with Jimmy helping Roger Borys get started, and he makes fantastic instruments of this type. I have a B-160 and love it.

    And Trenier was making a variant of this type as well, the Jazz Special.

    Lots of interest in this style even among high end luthiers.
    Lots. The Aria Jazz is also a nice guitar, but when I had a chance to A/B an Aria D'Aquisto and a Sadowsky Jim Hall the difference in laminate qualities was clear. There is a difference in plywoods. The Sadowsky had a lighter more responsive and woodier resonance. The Aria D'Aquisto looked really great but it (or at least the one I tried) wasn't nearly as resonant; it just seemed heavier in some way.
    Yup, there're a bunch of them out there and it's a fun process to compare them. At the very least, it might add to the knowledge that informs why one would worth more than another. On paper, they can look quite similar. Making music, if you're good enough to appreciate and discern, they can be quite different.

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27

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    Luthiers should get more than subsistence wages for his or her skill and expertise. When we buy a guitar, we are not buying wood. The wood is the least of it. We are buying the knowledge, the skill, the dedication and passion of the craftsperson that made it. Watch Ken Parker's "Archtoppery" video series to get a good idea of what goes into thinking about archtop guitar design and then executing it. The minutae he has focused on to try to perfect is amazing. That's why one of his guitars is $30,000. Look at the work of Monteleone, Benedetto, Manzer, etc. I would love one of Parker's archtops; the fact that the price tag would be more than half of my take-home income for a year means that I'll never have one. So be it. That is just the way it goes. I will never own a D'Acquisto or real D'Angelico, either. C'est la vie. And my skills on the instrument don't warrant that, anyway.

    When a luthier is charging under $4000 for a hand carved arch top guitar, they are probably making US minimum wage or less on an hourly basis. Do we want them to live in poverty so that we can have really nice but not particularly expensive luxury guitars?

    And quite frankly in a world where someone can charge $3000 to build a Telecaster, most of which can be done with a bandsaw, $6000 for an archtop doesn't seem so absurd.

    Roger Sadowsky's archtop guitars are made by craftsman in Japan who are second to none at what they do. And Japan has very high labor costs, not to mention that it's across the Pacific Ocean so there are also shipping costs involved.

  4. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Soloway
    How similar is that to the LS15?
    Not really. One pickup 24-3/4 scale, 1-11/16 neck, 15" body (actually 14-3/4), extra 15th fret neck (as opposed to the normal 14). Nice delicate nitro finish from 2005.

    Sadowsky Jimmy Bruno Model A530 Archtop Guitar- USED

    Sadowsky Jimmy Bruno Archtop - CR Guitars


  5. #29

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    Or you could go to Japan and pick one up for JPY490 000 or about $4428.

    sadowsky jim hall????????????????

  6. #30

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    bless their little hearts for getting what they can get, and (hopefully) ensuring living wages for their staff, but i got some mij poly/laminate archtops that say "epiphone" and "gretsch" on them for less than a third of that. never once regretted it.

    you could say the same about collings, and i'd say the same, too. i'll never be in a position to need or deserve a $6000 instrument, and i suppose i'm fortunate for that. my guitars may not (or may) be as nice as a sadowsky or any other name you'd care to mention, but that difference never once held me back or was detrimental to what i do or how i create. money talks, and other things do something else.

    and if you can hear the difference between a sadowsky and something else, you aren't using enough gain.

  7. #31

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    Sure, I'd like a Sadowsky or 2, and a couple of Collings as well.
    Are they worth what they're selling for? Impossible to answer objectively.
    But, until I win the lottery (I guess I'd have to buy a ticket), I'll stick with these:
    Total cost (actual outlay over 40+ years): About $19K.
    Sadowsky laminate archtop prices:  YIKES-my-gear-jpg

  8. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Karol
    Sure, I'd like a Sadowsky or 2, and a couple of Collings as well.
    Are they worth what they're selling for? Impossible to answer objectively.
    But, until I win the lottery (I guess I'd have to buy a ticket), I'll stick with these:
    Total cost (actual outlay over 40+ years): About $19K.
    Sadowsky laminate archtop prices:  YIKES-my-gear-jpg
    A friend of mine felt the same way and then about 10 years ago when Ken Parker was getting his archtops guitars rolling, that same friend realized that he could sell off a bunch of less expensive instruments that he had collected over the years and buy a Parker without having to a dime from his savings. He's been happy about that decision ever since.

  9. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by feet
    and if you can hear the difference between a sadowsky and something else, you aren't using enough gain.
    Or maybe the corollary: If you can’t hear the difference, you’re using too much.

  10. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by cmajor9
    Or maybe the corollary: If you can’t hear the difference, you’re using too much.
    Or if the obsession over the differences is making you more excited than actually playing, you're not using your own guitar enough.

  11. #35

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    The Gibson ES175 before it’s demise in 2017 had a $5K+ MAP but you could wiggle down that price.
    If it ever returns I hate to think what the price might be seeing some LP models selling for over $7K now.
    I should have stuck with the clarinet.

  12. #36

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    Labor costs go up each year, real estate costs go up each year, material costs go up each year etc.

    25 years ago a 300K house was expensive, now it is the price of a starter home in much of the USA.

    You can still get cheap guitars from places like China where slave wages are still paid and the environment is raped, or you can pay more. Your choice. Your Karma.

  13. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by vinnyv1k
    The Gibson ES175 before it’s demise in 2017 had a $5K+ MAP but you could wiggle down that price.
    If it ever returns I hate to think what the price might be seeing some LP models selling for over $7K now.
    I should have stuck with the clarinet.
    Hey! I started on clarinet. Later on made it much easier to read git music, having the same range.

  14. #38

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    I am reminded of a story about Jimmy D'Aquisto. At one point in his career, his guitars on the used market were selling for more than he was charging for them new. People would order a guitar, take delivery and then immediately flip it for a profit. He ended up canceling all of his existing orders and if people still wanted a guitar, they had to reorder them at the higher price. Otherwise, what the hell was he working for?

  15. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by omphalopsychos
    For that price, Sadowsky should at least go back to nitrocellulose lacquer. A plywood guitar could easily be worth its value at $6k (Trenier and Borys set the precedent), but the cheap feeling poly has been a huge turn off on every Sadowsky I've played.
    I believe the Rorys has an acrylic (matte) finish IIRC?

    But the bigger thing is that it is luthier-built, by hand, nice touches like wood binding etc.

    Both a Trenier and a Borys are over $6K new I'm pretty sure, I got mine used for considerably less. So $6K can get you near one of those.

  16. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by bluejaybill
    I believe the Rorys has an acrylic (matte) finish IIRC?

    But the bigger thing is that it is luthier-built, by hand, nice touches like wood binding etc.

    Both a Trenier and a Borys are over $6K new I'm pretty sure, I got mine used for considerably less. So $6K can get you near one of those.
    Borys is still selling his new guitars at $5500. I bought my B-120 for the same price as the seller paid for it new, $3650, so a rise of $1900 in twenty years is not that great of a leap. I bought my B-222 (Jazz Solid model) for $3450, used, from a dude who has 179 guitars, a few years ago.

    I got turned off by Sadowskys when I heard Walter Becker play one at Steely Dan's "Plush Jazz-Rock Party" on their big comeback special on PBS.
    I couldn't understand why they let WB play all these fills on this 'honking' guitar, when they had Herrington getting sublime sounds out of his axe.

    I realize this is subjective, but it blemished what was a transcendent concert otherwise.

  17. #41

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    Well the good news is there are great guitars to be had. The bad news is the guitars I like are always the expensive ones! LOL!

  18. #42

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  19. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
    I’d pay $4200 for that blue Sadowsky.

    Sadowsky Jim Hall Model???????????????
    If you like blue guitars.

  20. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Woody Sound
    If you like blue guitars.
    Absolutely I do! I owned a blue Super Eagle. They’re striking!

  21. #45

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    No Not Heritage Again! LOL

  22. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    No Not Heritage Again! LOL
    Just 4 you! And the Heritage Hollowbody P90 was pure genius.

    Sadowsky laminate archtop prices:  YIKES-c521aed5-fa9d-4ce7-a697-0b02cfa9671a-jpeg

    Sadowsky laminate archtop prices:  YIKES-e1be88a3-fbf7-4e78-9bf0-ea3aef72a0d4-jpeg

  23. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by Woody Sound
    The Jim Hall model is now $6k + shipping. Wow.

    Sadowsky Jim Hall 2021 Sienna Burst (#A1950) | Sadowsky | Reverb

    This thread got me thinking-how is the Sadowsky Jim Hall compared to some of the Eastman Guitars?

    Doug

  24. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug B
    This thread got me thinking-how is the Sadowsky Jim Hall compared to some of the Eastman Guitars?

    Doug
    I have a Jim Hall and an old 805.

    Both guitars’ stock pup are replaced with 57 Classics.
    My luthier cut the top of the Eastman just enough to not mess with the top brace and dropped the pup beautifully.

    These are two very different guitars: one is a thin carved spruce top/solid maple body and sides, the other maple laminated.

    The Eastman is more resonant acoustically, and has the typical thin carved-top sound with bright overtones. The general sound changed after chopping up the top, of course: not as resonant acoustically, but the electric sound now is darker, more even, less prone to feedback, and definitely more practical for me.

    The Sadowsky is more modern sounding; very even across the entire range. Less upper-mid hump, less sparkly treble, and less deep bass than the Eastman, due to several factors including the height of the arch, material, body depth, and etc.
    Can handle high volume better than the Eastman.

    Can’t really comment on workmanship/build quality of the current models, since the Eastman is 20 yrs old. All the cheap hardware on the Eastman have been replaced over the years, as they sucked. But I felt the basic build and the tone potential were better than (some) modern Gibsons, I sold my early 90’s L5 WesMo soon after getting the Eastman.
    Got the 2012 Sadowsky used. I consider it to be a good workhorse, in terms of quality: there’s no real weakness in any area.

    All my instruments are tools for my work, as a full-time pro.
    Both instruments serve their own purposes adequately.

    Hope this helps.

  25. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Doug B
    This thread got me thinking-how is the Sadowsky Jim Hall compared to some of the Eastman Guitars?

    Doug
    I think it's not unreasonable to make comparisons between the models of instruments that Jimmy D'Aquisto (upon which the Sadowsky Jim Hall and a lot of modern more "acoustic" instruments owe their lineage).
    Jimmy made beautiful working instruments with laminate tops for people like Joe Pass and Jim Hall. These are like the ones that are discussed in this thread.
    In his last years as a builder, he shied away from those models, (the New Yorker and the Exel) in the more traditional specs that had their origins in old Gibson and D'Angelico parentage and pursued a form that was more purely acoustic. They were more resonant, more lightly built and were dedicated to an acoustic "concert" sensibility. I think he called these the Avant Garde, the Ultima and the Centura.
    Sadowsky laminate archtop prices:  YIKES-screen-shot-2021-06-19-6-21-47-am-pngSadowsky laminate archtop prices:  YIKES-screen-shot-2021-06-19-6-22-24-am-pngSadowsky laminate archtop prices:  YIKES-screen-shot-2021-06-19-6-22-57-am-pngSadowsky laminate archtop prices:  YIKES-screen-shot-2021-06-19-6-24-02-am-png
    Of course guitarists, being largely a "traditional" market, ignored and never really embraced these magnificent instruments.
    But building wise, this more resonant way of building, and especially the emphasis on an acoustic form that used higher archings, lighter graduations and plate tuning tops and backs for the best acoustic response (something that's impossible on laminates), live on in the the guitars of Monteleone (direct lineage), Benedetto and to a large part, the sensibilities of Eastman guitars, especially the higher end acoustics.
    So the more appropriate comparison might be between ES-175 innovated electric/acoustic guitars and late model D'Aquisto inspired acoustic/electric guitars.
    Anyway that's one way you might look at it, and make the comparison between those families; those building philosophies.

  26. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug B
    This thread got me thinking-how is the Sadowsky Jim Hall compared to some of the Eastman Guitars?

    Doug
    I am not aware of an Eastman model similar to the Sadowsky Jim Hall. Maybe someone else does. Have a specific Eastman model in mind? Think this will be an apple and oranges type of comparison.