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This afternoon I have been surfing around looking at old archtop guitars for sale postings. I have been through most of the major dealers and I won't mention any names or specifics, but it appears most dealers have covered themselves.
The listing of the guitar goes through details of course. Some dealers get really wordy and fancy as if they are trying to be live journalist for the guitar. My first preference is to tell them all to stop all the words and garbage information. Please just give the basic details without adding all the superlatives. No need to do into minute details of every square inch of the guitar. For some dealers they actually do know much about jazz guitars but far too many really don't know all that much.
Many of the listings say " The finish appears to be original" and to me this is the dead giveaway they don't know much with some exceptions. There are dealers who do know but the majority on Reverb and a few other places just use the out clause "it appears." I am not an attorney but Stringswinger, is and I bet he might think the same thing about this little phase. To me this means if somehow you prove later or in the process of buying the guitar, find the finish is not original they buyer beware you are not going to get much slack.
This clause could very well apply to almost anything on the guitar but for finishes it seems to be the most used phased. I say this because a guitar refinished 50 years ago or even 30 may never show any signs of being refinished. It is possible to refinish a guitar in nitro and after an number of years no one really knows. So to me if you buy a vintage Gibson, Da, or some other like guitar expecting that what the dealer said was true you better be careful. Buyer beware and I think if the listing is worded correct you might lose easy in court if you choose that route.
Ok, my post is not to necessarily knock dealers or give them all a bad name. There are many fine ones and when you actually discuss the guitar with them they shoot straight. I know those and they are my friends. My other point is that some fellows are getting on reverb and selling sites for nothing at least initially and then over telling the guitar. My preference is to list the guitar and then general condition pretty much what George Gruhn uses is fine. Then list the a few details like body size and neck width at the nut. Otherwise I don't need all the other information it is meaningless. If I am serious about the guitar I better be able to call the person and start a conversation.
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05-29-2021 04:29 PM
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I think “appears original” in regard to finish may be the most honest. There are people out there right now and the knowledge of how to do it has been out there for decades now. It’s possible for the best refinishers out there to do a new finish that is virtually indistinguishable from a 70 year old finish, right down to fluorescence. There are times when refinish or overspray is clear, but there are times when it just isn’t.
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I guess the other argument would be that if no one can tell, does it matter? Maybe we will see people doing chemical analysis on lacquer to see if it matches the era, much like paintings.
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Well in the highly collectible range, yes, but to regular people no.
Originally Posted by ThatRhythmMan
I “collect” a lot of things, but nothing where a fake vintage finish would be significant, or worth anyone’s time.
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My brother-in-law is a wine aficionado and has a couple of sites that he uses for wine purchases. The verbiage on these is paragraphs long, putting most guitar dealers' verbal gymnastics to shame by comparison. I think it may go back to J Peterman and Banana Republic catalogs of about 30 years ago when they sold the product not on its own merits but on creating a mood and expectation intended to appeal to the buyer above and beyond what they were actually getting.
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Buyer beware always applies. Unless you can prove a dealer knew that his representations were false, that you relied upon them and that you were financially damaged, you have no case. And even if you have a case, with the exception of certain States that have laws providing for such, you will not get your attorney fees back (which in any lawsuit will surely dwarf any damages you have suffered on a guitar purchase unless your 59 Burst turns out to be a fake).
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I don't find that deceptive at all. "Appears to be" is exactly what I would be saying since I'm not qualified to say anything other than that - if I'm even qualified to go that far. I would say its the most accurate and honest phrase to use unless you have knowledge or proof that it isn't true.
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All goes back to Stan Jay’s catalog descriptions from Mandolin Bros in the 80’s. Stan could write (throw a line?) like no one else.
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It's a given that you sell the sizzle, not the steak. "Accentuate the positive...."
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I love that song.... Originally Posted by citizenk74
It's a given that you sell the sizzle, not the steak. "Accentuate the positive...."
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JK, I got a kick out of Stan and really appreciated his store.
My opinion is that..
Stan took great pride and joy in his writing descriptions of stringed instruments. He indulged poetically more for the love of words than for the masking of an inferior product..
Mandolin Bros was an iconic institution for the serious buyer.
Originally Posted by jazzkritter
Last edited by Nick71; 06-02-2021 at 01:55 PM.
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Stan was for sure and I found him enjoyable. Those who followed in his ways never quite have cut it like Stan........no doubt. Originally Posted by Nick71
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Agreed 100% .. Originally Posted by deacon Mark
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Yes i hope my comment didnt sound negative! Stan was a good guy, RIP, and trips there were a lot of fun. Those were the days, pre internet, waiting for the next monthly mailing from him.
Not the days of instant gratification or instant answers: “gee, i dont know. Do you? No me neither. Oh well guess we wont know.”
Siri indeed)))
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I do not think your comment was negative at all. Originally Posted by jazzkritter
I just wanted to chime in and show support for Stan and Mandolin Bros.
I feel the same way you do and miss a lot of the old world.
I remember going to the city which most people from Queens call Manhattan even though we all live in the city, and going to all the record stores. From Columbus Circle into Midtown and then all the way Downtown looking for music I was in search of. I miss going to all the different smaller guitar stores from 48th Street, 28th Street again then onto Downtown. The same went for clothing, stereos, jewelry, comic books, toy stores, etc. We used to turn everything into a small adventure..
Nothing stays the same that’s the way life goes.Last edited by Nick71; 06-03-2021 at 03:36 PM.
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For sale: 1963 Corvette. Appears to have the original engine. All sales final.
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I have to agree with Deacon on this. "Appears to be original" sounds much more positive and assuming than "I don't know if it's original or not," which seems to be the more honest way to state someone's lack of knowledge. How about taking it to someone who does know? And if it's a dealer who doesn't know, well.....
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Mandolin Bros. was a four star oasis in the desert! Originally Posted by Nick71
Last edited by jim777; 06-05-2021 at 12:03 PM.
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Was the dessert pie, cake, ice cream, or what?
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I know there, their, and they're, but that one always gets me lol Originally Posted by sgosnell
Was the dessert pie, cake, ice cream, or what?
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I think it’s a good point, the ‘clause’. And those who think it’s a positive are being naive or have little experience int he shark-infested world of vintage guitar deals.
I’m not trying to put anyone down, but it’s the way of the world.
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Nick71
“I miss going to all the different smaller guitar stores from 48th Street, 28th Street again then onto Downtown.”
Aint that the truth! Just going back and forth across 48th: Mannys, 48th Street, We Buy Guitars, Pensa/Suhr, man that was fun and yes, nothing lasts forever. Except cockroaches and Guitar Center it seems.
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Those were the best days Originally Posted by jazzkritter
Nick71
“I miss going to all the different smaller guitar stores from 48th Street, 28th Street again then onto Downtown.”
Aint that the truth! Just going back and forth across 48th: Mannys, 48th Street, We Buy Guitars, Pensa/Suhr, man that was fun and yes, nothing lasts forever. Except cockroaches and Guitar Center it seems.
I remember seeing Stanley Jordan on the corner near the Orange Julius playing his insane style and filling his case with singles. And standing next to Larry Coryell, both of drooling at the guitars in the big "We Buy" window. It was a great time. I remember the first Tokai Love Rock Les Pauls appearing and they were in the windows too, so you KNEW they were special. And playing that beat up old Silvertone in Manny's that they wouldn't sell to George Harrison.....those were good times
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Forgot about the Orange Julius)
There was a small store I think to the right of 48th, it had a combination of Asian tchotchkes and Strat copies in the window. Talk about your mixed metaphors.
Hey even us Jersey kids knew we went to The City! New York was the tree/mountain part to the north.
OK sorry back to slimy used vintage guitar sellers!
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I was a f/t musician back then, and those catalogues' prices used to give me the shakes. Originally Posted by jazzkritter
I should be grateful to MB, though; my father was in one of his financial ruts, and took his '35 D'A to the Lawnguyland Guitar Show to sell it. MB told him they'd give him 1K for it. My father told him to shove it where the sun don't shine, and hobbled outta there. Same thing happened with a number of music stores. They're all the same. Buy low; sell high. Bidness is bidness.
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