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Hello,
I have a Fender Player Telecaster which has a dead note (poor sustain) due to a neck resonance on the D string at the 8th fret (Bb). It's not due to a bad string, frets, truss rod setting, intonation, etc. I'm using a 0.026 inch D'Addario Chrome flatwound D string. Heavier string gauges make the problem worse.
I'm thinking of trying to upgrade the tuners to some heavier Hipshot locking tuners to add some weight to the peghead to fix the problem. I think this might work as adding some weight to the peghead using a Fat Finger does fix the issue (a Fat Finger is a clamp-on weight Fender sells). Though the Fat Finger works, upgrading the tuners would be a less clumsy solution (if it works).
I'm wondering, has anyone else had a similar problem and did changing to heavier tuners work for them?
Thanks,
Dave
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03-09-2021 01:12 PM
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Bummer! I can't answer your question, but I would think that upgrading tuners would be a good idea anyway ??
Is it only that one note that's dead? Or the surrounding notes as well? Good luck, and keep us informed.
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[QUOTE=swampguide;1105145]Hello,
I have a Fender Player Telecaster which has a dead note (poor sustain) due to a neck resonance on the D string at the 8th fret (Bb). It's not due to a bad string, frets, truss rod setting, intonation, etc. I'm using a 0.026 inch D'Addario Chrome flatwound D string. Heavier string gauges make the problem worse.
I'm thinking of trying to upgrade the tuners to some heavier Hipshot locking tuners to add some weight to the peghead to fix the problem. I think this might work as adding some weight to the peghead using a Fat Finger does fix the issue (a Fat Finger is a clamp-on weight Fender sells). Though the Fat Finger works, upgrading the tuners would be a less clumsy solution (if it works).
I'm wondering, has anyone else had a similar problem and did changing to heavier tuners work for them?
hi, the way I would address the issue is to find a very small “C” clamp with plastic pads on the jaws and I would clamp it to the headstock and see if your dead spot changes. Good luck
bill
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I agree that if you think adding weight would help, add some weight before buying tuners. There are multiple ways of doing this, so use whatever you have on hand for the experiments.
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The OP has already stated that he added weight and that it helped.
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Questions for the OP:
Did the Fat Finger work in positions both far up and far down on the headstock?
If so, then indeed heavier tuners could work well.
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Best to then determine the weight of your current tuners vs heavier ones. Then compare that to the weight of the FatFinger.
I assume you used the guitar version of the FF.
You may find that the tuner weight differential may not be quite that of the Fat Finger. This could mean less improvement via the tuners than via the FF.
I have had reasonably good results drilling a long hole into the headstock from the end and filling it with tungsten pellets. But that does leave a visible (even if matching maple) plug at the upper end of the headstock.
While it is extremely unlikely to be part of the problem, have you checked the neck bolts with the strings slack?
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For the bad note to be that specific, it seems like it almost has to be the 8th or 9th fret. I know you said it's not the frets, but that seems almost impossible since the problem is so specific to that spot on the fingerboard. Something is absorbing energy there. Badly cut slot that isn't supporting that fret well enough there? Fret hammered in slightly too low? The ninth fret is slightly proud and choking the note? Micro-crack in the wood caused by the fret tang?
If those fail, it's a Fender. The neck bolts on. Trying a different neck might be a reasonable plan. Certainly a lot easier than drilling a hole to put tungsten beads in, it seems to me, although that is a remarkably creative solution that I would've never thought of. Putting on things like a fat finger or heavier tuners may just upset the balance of the guitar on the strap and make it uncomfortable to play.
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Tele’s are already a little neck heavy on a strap, so before adding weight, it does seem best to be 100% certain that it is not some specific mechanical issue vs. a resonant peak.
Originally Posted by Cunamara
The tungsten was actually on a P-Bass. But the principle was the same - needing to add weight to soften and move the resonant peak of the neck, and instrument as a whole.
EDIT: Removed confusing comment on Tele balance.Last edited by Bezoeker; 03-10-2021 at 04:55 AM.
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Hello Bezoeker, Originally Posted by Bezoeker
I was hoping to find the weight of the current Fender tuners on-line but I haven't found that. I don't have an accurate scale myself.
Based on some posts on other forums (mostly TDPRI), the general consensus seemed to be that locking tuners were heavier but I didn't find reliable weight measurements to confirm this. Schaller F-Series were often cited as "heavy" and the Hipshots are the same weight, so that's why I was thinking of trying them. Someone had posted some tuner weight measurements on TDPRI, but they didn't match the weights posted on the manufacturer's web sites so I don't trust them. So I was hoping to find someone who had actually tried swapping tuners and could tell me whether they noticed a difference.
The Fat Finger (guitar version) works wherever I put it on the peghead but it does seem to work best near the nut. So as you say a tuner upgrade may not work quite as well since the weight distribution will be different.
I tried loosening the 4 neck bolts slightly to see if the neck would re-seat a little more securely but it didn't seem to do anything. Not sure if this was what you were referring to.
The Fat Finger is 100g/3.5oz which is probably more than the increase in weight I would see with locking tuners. But maybe an ounce or two would be enough. How much weight did you need to add to your P-Bass peghead?
Thanks,
DaveLast edited by swampguide; 03-11-2021 at 02:15 PM.
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Thanks to all for the replies.
To respond to some of the comments:
- There is only one dead note (on the D string at the 8th fret).
- It's not a fret issue because if I tune the D string to C# or C the dead spot moves to a different fret and also without de-tuning, adding weight to the peghead gets rid of the dead note.
- The Fender Fat Finger is a clamp that is used to add weight to the peghead.
- Trying a new neck is a possibility, but if it works, new tuners would be easier and less expensive. Also I like the feel and frets on the current neck.
Thanks,
Dave
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If it's a dead note and not bad fret, the dead note will be present on the other strings when a unison note is played.
Bb on the 11th fret of the B string is a very noticeable dead note on my Tele. The unison Bb on the 6th fret high E string is also dead but due to the longer string length in that position it's got more sustain and a little less noticeable.
The down side of tuner upgrade is it may result in a different dead note. I'm looking for a more flexible solution, like adding a small weight. Ideally removing is better, but it's hard to make that kind of change reversible
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"Popping" the neck. Under full tuning tension, loosen the screws and let the neck settle into the pocket. Sometimes you'll hear a pop, hence the name. Then tighten the screws back down. I've never noticed much of a difference but some people swear by it. Originally Posted by swampguide
Otherwise I'm stumped and grasping at straws. If the dead note doesn't replicate at the same pitch on other strings and only happens on the D string, then maybe an issue with the saddle or bridge?
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If I may:
Call it a “dead note” a “wolf tone” or whatever you wish.
We are talking about a resonant peak of a wooden instrument.
They ALL have them.
All.
EDIT: Sometimes the peak is very sharp at a specific note. Sometimes it is very diffused over a range of frequencies- making it less of a potential problem.
It is a combination of mass and frequency and location.
It is absolutely normal for the resonant peak to be only noticeable on one string.
Yes.
The same frequency on another string can have both a different vibrating mass, and a different location along the neck. This is often more than enough to suppress the “dead note”.
The OP absolutely had the right ideas in term of troubleshooting, or more accurately ‘fault isolation’. Huge help there in describing the problem.
Tal-175 notes that changes in mass on the bridge, tuners, etc. often just move the resonant peak.
But the focus of the peak may also be very significantly softened, which can help a great deal.
Please do not “pop” the neck. Major tin-foil hat activity there. Loosen the neck bolts only under no string tension.
(Neatomic: I know it is actually aluminum foil on your head. But I say ‘tin-foil’ only as a common expression. Try to remain calm. Cleansing breaths...)
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EDIT: At different times in history, some felt that gluing in a fender neck had benefits. Those benefits drifted based on what was the most desirable benefit at the time. “Sustain” was a claim, right around when a brass nut was inexplicably described as adding overall sustain as well. It is absolutely possible that a more complete coupling (sounds like that Gwinneth person) of the neck to the body could change the resonant peak of the instrument - either in terms of frequency or sharpness of the peak. But I would not try gluing the neck on.
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As Cunamara notes: Just because we experience the resonant peak at a given (and possibly singular) place on the neck, does not mean that it is happening there. It is the overall resonance of the entire instrument that starts vibrating (and taking energy from the string) under a specific combination of frequency, vibrating mass, and sometimes location.
A different bridge or even just saddles could either move the peak or both move and soften it.
To the OP: I think you are right in thinking that new tuners may not add enough mass.
But you can experiment.
US Nickels are almost exactly 5 grams each. If you secure them well with tape to the headstock, you can easily determine the mass (and location) at which you calm the resonant peak to your satisfaction. Just some duct tape pressed very securely will do it.
I would have to look, but there used to also be metal plates that could be attached to the back of the headstock to add non-hideous mass.Last edited by Bezoeker; 03-10-2021 at 03:26 PM.
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Dave,
My days as a full time luthier/tech were a while ago. The tungsten was added in two holes drilled in from about 30 degrees off the general string axis. Just stuffing in as much as practical fixed with glue and play-testing.
Truly mouth-breather or knuckle-dragger (as opposed to tin-foil hat) activity on my part. It just actually worked in that case. Sorry that I have absolutely no idea of the actual mass added.
This concept of resonant peak troubles is remarkably common. It is interesting that it goes unnoticed in most cases.
Well, that most players just play and make semi-conscious adjustments to the instrument is great really. It is arguably the ultimate playing experience.
Just sometimes on a given instrument that is not the best solution.Last edited by Bezoeker; 03-10-2021 at 03:30 PM.
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Another way to change mass on the headstock is changing tuner buttons. I've reduced weight by a couple of ounces by changing from metal buttons to ebony. Some tuners make changing the buttons easy, others not so much, and I have no idea whether yours are screwed on or plastic. Big metal buttons can weigh a lot.
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took you a couple of days to work up that "brilliant" comeback, huh troll... Originally Posted by Bezoeker
and even sadder, you are proud of it!
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Dave,
Just remembered the product name: Fathead. No seriously.
They were plates that you would attach to the headstock, said to increase sustain back when that was considered the ultimate experience.
In practice they were actually useful for “dead notes” / “wolf tones”.
If you do not mind a lump of brass (reasonably high specific gravity) attached to the back of the headstock, that could be a solution for you. I mean a cut plate from sheet brass since the Fathead has gone out of style (as a product anyway, if not as a lifestyle choice).
If the Fat Finger works for you, then you have a reasonably good idea of the mass needed for a plate to be attached to the back of the headstock.
In practice, you might do best to first get the heavy tuners of your choice. Then if you still need more mass, a relatively smaller brass plate could make up any difference between the incremental tuner weight and what you find to be ideal.
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Bezoeker,
I'd seen the Fathead and other headstock plates from on-line searches. I don't think it's made anymore and can only be purchased second-hand.
The Fatfinger works but it's really big and clunky which is unfortunate. Maybe a more compact design that's more like a capo would be better. Or maybe a small steel plate you could attach under one tuner and add magnetic weights to. Maybe these ideas have been tried and don't work - I don't know. You'd think there'd be a market for this kind of thing. Especially for SGs and Fender basses which seem to be particularly prone to having dead spots.
sgosnell's idea of different tuner buttons might be on to something (thanks!). My current ones are metal so maybe changing to a lighter material may help. It may be that *reducing* the weight of the peghead would work too.
Not sure what I'll do at this point. If I try anything I'll report back with the results.
Thanks,
Dave
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Dave,
It would be great to hear back when you try various things.
The steel plate and magnets has the downside of using the relatively lower specific gravity of steel vs. something a little denser like brass, lead (which has its downsides), or tungsten.
But your idea is easily reversed, so no drilling etc. - and it is not like you would need to hang a cannon ball on there or anything.
Interesting thought about going lighter, since in principle that would move the resonant peak and also possibly flatten the curve (as we used to say a year ago).
Anyway, looking forward to hearing any results.
BZ
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The beat the bushes on this a little...
The reason I asked earlier about the placement of the fatfinger, was to try to understand the likely resonance in question.
For example, MANY (if not all) acoustic guitars have one or more noticeable resonant peaks. Some are severe, but many are fairly limited in the attenuation (and often emphasized octave harmonic) of the note in question.
Some are resonant at every instance of a given note on all strings, some on only one or two strings.
On many acoustics you could hang the USS Nimitz on the headstock and it would make no difference, since the resonant peak is being realized in the body for the most part.
On Fender basses it is often the neck and body resonating as a long unit. Placing the added mass out at the end of the headstock will often be less effective than placing it closer to the nut. This makes a sort of sense if you imagine the whole neck and even the body vibrating along the length of the instrument, with the end of the headstock not vibrating much at all.
So your note about the fatfinger working better near the nut suggested that chasing things like changing the mass of the body may work, but likely would not be very effective.
Back to acoustic instruments: check out wolf tone/note demos on something like a cello. The entire instrument can go crazy at the resonant peak and knock the fillings out of teeth of the player. There can sometimes be an extremely sharply focused, high amplitude resonant peak in such a case.
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Because the idea sounds scientific (i.e., truthy), I would try locating the Fat Finger at an even divisor of the note's wavelength. The idea is that the wavelength will reflect off the mass and be reinforced- basically trying to create a standing wave of the right frequency. I don't know that this would actually work (it's based on my high school level misunderstanding of wave physics using a glass-bottomed tank of water, a wave generator and shadows) but it's at least the place to start experimenting. Since the wavelength of this note is 1.46 m, 1/2 of that would be 730 mm from the fret. Not practical on a guitar neck; 1/4 would be 365 mm, which would be located about at the B string tuner. If that doesn't make it better or makes it worse, try 1/5 of the wavelength or 292 mm. One caveat is that those wavelengths are probably in the air at sea level at a standard temperature, etc., rather than traveling through wood. I don't know if the wavelength changes based on the medium.
Standing wave - Wikipedia
And if that doesn't work, then I don't know WTF I am talking about (which is highly likely anyway). Random trial and error may be the way to go.Last edited by Cunamara; 03-12-2021 at 05:55 PM.
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I haven't delved into the scientific details covered in the above posts but I will say that I have an acoustic guitar which sounds great overall but has a particularly dead F# on the fifth string. I first changed the metal tuner buttons to Ebony, then changed the tuners to a lighter weight tuner. The dead note didn't change. A neck reset didn't change it either. My uneducated view is that you should change the neck if you wanted to eliminate a dead note. And since the OPs guitar is a Tele, it is dead simple.
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In the case of an electric guitar I think it's more complicated than this. If you are interested in the physics of it take a look at these research papers: Originally Posted by Cunamara
(PDF) Investigating Dead Spots of Electric Guitars
ASA/EAA/DAGA '99 - Dead Spots of Electric Guitars and Basses
I found the best place for the Fatfinger was near the nut.
Thanks,
DaveLast edited by swampguide; 03-12-2021 at 01:47 PM.
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With an acoustic guitar I think the mechanism causing the dead note could be different. A cancelling resonance of the *top* not the neck may be the cause (see Bezoeker's post above). You may have some luck sticking some "blu tack" (poster putty) on the top at various places near the bridge to try and reduce the resonance. If you are able to improve things using blu tack, a more permanent fix can be done by attaching a piece of wood of the same weight to the underside of the top. See the bottom of the page of this link: Originally Posted by rob taft
Dead Note - Page 2 - The Acoustic Guitar Forum
Alan Carruth is a luthier who knows a lot about this phenomena.
With regards to changing a neck on a Tele - it's certainly possible but I'm not sure I'd say it's dead simple. Replacement necks need nuts to be filed and frets to be filed and polished (according to the suppliers). I would need a luthier to do this. By the time I factor this in plus the neck cost and shipping, I'm probably looking at almost half of what I paid for my guitar. And there's no guarantee that the new neck will be any better. I would probably better off to try and buy another Tele which doesn't have the problem.
Thanks,
DaveLast edited by swampguide; 03-12-2021 at 02:27 PM.
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I don't know anything about this subject, but I won't let that stop me from posting.
The issue here is that there is a profile for the resonance of different notes and one of them is unacceptably un-resonant.
So, I wondered, what are the controllable factors that contribute to the guitar's profile with regard to resonance of different notes?
Apparently, the weight on the headstock is one such factor.
But what else?
It occurred to me that the adjustment of the truss rod might influence the profile.
I've occasionally moved the truss rod a bit without really affecting intonation or playability. Might a subtle movement change the resonance profile without any unwanted side effect? What about loosening and tightening it again by the same amount? Might it change the amount of slop in the system, bearing in mind that I don't know what I'm talking about?
Fit in neck pocket would strike me as another factor. Tension of strings. Maybe even breakover angle at the bridge? How about the way the offending string is wrapped on the post? If it's pulling at the top, that makes the post a kind of lever putting more tension on the headstock. Could that matter? Whichever way it's attached maybe switch to the opposite?
I guess I'd try all the reversable cheap things that don't affect the balance of the guitar before I added much weight.
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