The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    I've had this Epi Emperor Regent (Peerless, July 1999) since new. It's my first archtop after a 25-year abstinence from playing.There's been and are quite a few others, including ES-175s and a Benedetto Bravo. While those are benchmark guitars, I'm really wondering why this EPI model, and sister Broadway, don't command a higher resale value. The acoustic sound has improved over time and, I dare say, matches many carved guitars. The build quality is flawless, and the inlays and bindings are quite complex. Just look at the photo: nine-ply top and back binding, five-ply pickguard edge, three-ply fretboard binding, all well executed and stable. One can always nag about hardware and electronic components; mine has its third PU, and one pot was changed under warranty. But replacing all those is a matter of a few hundred clams, while the value gap to USA made guitars is four-digit. Why? Brand? Pressure from above from Japanese 1970s-1980s achtops? Pressure from below from current, even cheaper, yet objectively good-to-excellent Chinese and Indonesian builds?
    Attached Images Attached Images What ultimately determines the value of a guitar?-20210301_214134-jpg 

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    Supply and demand.

  4. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by skykomishone
    Supply and demand.
    Sure. I majored in macro-economics 50 years ago and vaguely recall those intersecting curves. Supply isn't excessive; there's more premium guitars in the For Sale section all the time than the likes of these. I'm puzzled by the low demand. Almost 20 years ago I attended a seminar in Florida. There was a great jazz trio playing in the hotel lobby. The guitarist had an Emperor Regent just like mine. I was even more delighted when he told me it was as good as any of his Gibsons, only a lot more sensible for a touring musician

  5. #4

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    The buyer? But I suppose thats supply and demand too. But Epiphone in the States had a rather poor ‘second to Gibson’ rep in the late 60s-70s.

  6. #5

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    Various cues. The nameplate. Epi is known, these days, as a cheaper Gibson. Which pros use the model. Somehow, whether it's seen as cool.
    Thoughts about resale value.

    When I was a teen player in the 60s, the jazz guys coveted D'Angelicos and played Gibsons. Everybody respected Guild and nobody wanted one -- and the Guilds of that era are great guitars. Jazz guys had no use for Fender anything in my neck of the woods. It was Gibson and Ampeg. Gretsch was considered a country guitar with stupidly painted-on F holes. The jazz guys laughed at Gretsch even while they struggled with feedback on their Gibsons.

    I don't think the quality of the specific model enters into it as much as it should. Disclosure: I think my Yamaha Pacifica 012, their cheapest Strat copy, is a very good guitar (maybe after some minor hardware improvements).

  7. #6

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    I suspect that the market for archtops with floaters is pretty heavily saturated, and Epi Emperor Regents are neither rarer nor dramatically better than any of a number of other Ibanezes, Washburns, Asian-made Guilds etc, that do the same job. It's a niche market, and there are a lot of guitars, but not all that many buyers, hence low prices clear the market. Looked at strictly in terms of sound and playability, it may be as good as a Johnny Smith (at least plugged in), but the world of collectors looks at more than that (especially details not found on mass produced Asian guitars).

    As a buyer with three relatively inexpensive but fantastic quality Asian-made guitars, I'm not complaining (nor am I selling).

    John

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar;[URL="[URL
    tel:1103096[/URL]"]1103096[/URL]]: I think my Yamaha Pacifica 012, their cheapest Strat copy, is a very good guitar (maybe after some minor hardware improvements).
    good news ....
    I just bought a Pacifica 112v for £100

    what hardware do you you think
    I should I look at to improve ?
    It seem ok ....
    (its got stock SSH alnico V pickups)
    maybe a better neck pu ?
    I’m gonna put flats on it and want to
    use it for Jazz AND modern pop/soul
    (a compromise I know but I only wanna
    pack one guitar)

    sorry to derail ....
    carry on folks

  9. #8

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    In no specific order:
    - Emotions of buyers are often immeasurably powerful / irrationally so!
    - People want "The Best" of whatever, and when something has that status,
    it's lusted for, whether or not that status is scientifically substantiable.
    - People want the instruments that "The EARLY Great Guitarists" presented
    their work on, who ever the BUYER sees as "An Early GREAT Guitarist". If
    a buyer is a Chet Atkins fan, that buyer is certainly open to buying a Gretsch.
    George Van Eps fans will seek USA made Epiphones and Gretsch 7 stringers.
    - American made guitars from the EARLY 1960s and prior decades, have a
    "demi-god" status, (George Benson Models by Ibanez, for example, just don't)
    and that's rooted in the above.
    - American buyers will experience the "Patriotism" affect when buying an
    American made guitar.

  10. #9

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    Behavioral economics. [Same reasons some people buy $500 jeans.]

    My first jazz guitar was a very nice 1988 Gibson L-4 CES. When I went to sell it (to fund my first custom guitar), I couldn't give it away (around 2001)! Everyone wanted a 175! For whatever reasons now, they seem to get a bit more respect...

  11. #10

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    For the same reason my Lyle L5/175 "mashup" will never be worth to sell what it would cost to replace the playability and plugged in sound.

    Brand names can and do matter immensely in what most people will pay for whatever items are involved.

    Reputation matters for giving anyone a feeling their spending the money will not be a waste. Both intellectually and emotionally.

    So getting an awesome player like your Epi or my Lyle at the low cost they are comparatively is great for us in acquisition, not so great if we want to sell.

    Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gitterbug
    Sure. I majored in macro-economics 50 years ago and vaguely recall those intersecting curves. Supply isn't excessive; there's more premium guitars in the For Sale section all the time than the likes of these. I'm puzzled by the low demand. Almost 20 years ago I attended a seminar in Florida. There was a great jazz trio playing in the hotel lobby. The guitarist had an Emperor Regent just like mine. I was even more delighted when he told me it was as good as any of his Gibsons, only a lot more sensible for a touring musician
    Remember the "diamonds and water paradox"? Adam Smith called it "the paradox of value". The buyer measures value by two standards: the item's practical value in use (in which case water is more valuable than diamonds") as versus the value that some other buyer may be willing to pay for the item (in which case diamonds are perceived to be more valuable than water). How many guitar discussions ultimately devolve into predicted resale values? That argument is used to support the prices of both Gibson guitars and Rolex watches.
    Last edited by Jim Soloway; 03-02-2021 at 12:29 PM.

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by pingu
    good news ....
    I just bought a Pacifica 112v for £100

    what hardware do you you think
    I should I look at to improve ?
    carry on folks
    Here's my experience. I bought mine used. It already had replacement tuners. I've never played any others of this model, so I don't know if the stock tuners are ok or not. Mine stays in tune way better than my Comins GCS-1. If yours tunes up easily and holds tune, I wouldn't change a thing.

    Now, because I bought it used, I don't know how well it was, or wasn't, cared for. I do know that the humbucker in the bridge position died. I lowered it (so the magnet wouldn't affect the strings so much), disconnected it and left it in. I also had to replace the 5 position switch. I also replaced the stock neck pickup with a Seymour Duncan Lil 59, but that was to change the sound --there was nothing wrong with the stock pickup. Pots were all fine.

    So, someone could argue that it's a cheap piece of crap. You shouldn't have to replace tuners, pickups and switch.

    BUT, otoh, it stays in tune really well. I love the neck (others will find it too small). It sounds pretty good to me (you can hear it in the Improvisation section of this forum, played thru some cheapie amplification). I usually take the Comins GCS-1 on gigs because I think it sounds a little fuller, but I've taken the Pacifica 012 on a lot of gigs and it was fine.

    BTW. Mine was made in Indonesia and I believe the woods are agathis and cocobolo. I see that the new ones are maple and mahogany. That sounds like the new ones might be better, but I'd have to play them to have an opinion.

    One other point. When I had single coils in the neck and middle positions, I compared the sound. It was a little different, but not that much. So, I figured, if I wanted a more traditional single coil Strat sound, I'd just use the middle pickup. I don't do it very often, but it does work.
    Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 03-02-2021 at 03:48 AM.

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by pingu
    good news ....
    I just bought a Pacifica 112v for £100

    what hardware do you you think
    I should I look at to improve ?
    It seem ok ....
    (its got stock SSH alnico V pickups)
    maybe a better neck pu ?
    I’m gonna put flats on it and want to
    use it for Jazz AND modern pop/soul
    (a compromise I know but I only wanna
    pack one guitar)

    sorry to derail ....
    carry on folks
    That's a great inexpensive guitar. I wouldn't do anything to it. I have a Pacifica 102S. The tuners stay in tune fine. The playability of the guitar is excellent. I "upgraded" the neck pickup and didn't hear much real improvement. I'd leave it alone and just play the hell out of it.

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan0996
    That's a great inexpensive guitar. I wouldn't do anything to it. I have a Pacifica 102S. The tuners stay in tune fine. The playability of the guitar is excellent. I "upgraded" the neck pickup and didn't hear much real improvement. I'd leave it alone and just play the hell out of it.
    cool , thanks for the advice
    (and everyone else)
    I played it a bit before taking it apart to
    do it up and so far I do love it ....

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gitterbug
    I've had this Epi Emperor Regent (Peerless, July 1999) since new. It's my first archtop after a 25-year abstinence from playing.There's been and are quite a few others, including ES-175s and a Benedetto Bravo. While those are benchmark guitars, I'm really wondering why this EPI model, and sister Broadway, don't command a higher resale value. The acoustic sound has improved over time and, I dare say, matches many carved guitars. The build quality is flawless, and the inlays and bindings are quite complex. Just look at the photo: nine-ply top and back binding, five-ply pickguard edge, three-ply fretboard binding, all well executed and stable. One can always nag about hardware and electronic components; mine has its third PU, and one pot was changed under warranty. But replacing all those is a matter of a few hundred clams, while the value gap to USA made guitars is four-digit. Why? Brand? Pressure from above from Japanese 1970s-1980s achtops? Pressure from below from current, even cheaper, yet objectively good-to-excellent Chinese and Indonesian builds?
    Shhh! Korean Emperor Regents are supposed to be a secret! Mine has the nicest neck of all my guitars, stays in tune, doesn't weigh a ton, looks great, sounds great. Why would I want to sell it?

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by citizenk74
    Shhh! Korean Emperor Regents are supposed to be a secret! Mine has the nicest neck of all my guitars, stays in tune, doesn't weigh a ton, looks great, sounds great. Why would I want to sell it?
    Mine as well. They are incredible values!

  18. #17

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    At least in my neck of the woods there aren't too many 17" floaters around. BTW, I had a nice 2006 D'Angelico NYL-2 by Vestax (Terada) for a while. A pressed top vs. laminate, ebony fretboard vs. rosewood, MIJ sticker and of course the brand and the looks, made it five times as expensive as the ER. Blindfolded, I could hardly tell one from the other. Objectively, there was no visual difference in build quality either.

  19. #18

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    The vintage and resale market is one of the purest examples of the law of supply and demand.

    As far as valuation, that would depend on a bit of an equation: Rarity x Quality x Perceived Value.

    Gibsons like the 175 and LP and L5 hit that mark, while Korean models unfortunately don't. I have a Peerless Sunset and had a Samick-made Epi Joe Pass that were *almost* as good as anything you could get at the time--for a fraction of the cost of a Gibson. They are certainly well-made, extremely comfortable to play, and get that mellow jazz sound down well.

    However...the thing about most foreign-made guitars (at least as of 20 years ago or so) is A) they are derivative of a classic American design and B) they fall short in 1 or 2 key areas--thick poly finish, less durable plating of metal parts, subpar electronics, less expressive pickups.

    They are certainly good values, as my Peerless would attest, but collectible or with a high resale value? Not a lot of them would fit that bill.

  20. #19

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    Former owner

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gitterbug
    At least in my neck of the woods there aren't too many 17" floaters around. BTW, I had a nice 2006 D'Angelico NYL-2 by Vestax (Terada) for a while. A pressed top vs. laminate, ebony fretboard vs. rosewood, MIJ sticker and of course the brand and the looks, made it five times as expensive as the ER. Blindfolded, I could hardly tell one from the other. Objectively, there was no visual difference in build quality either.
    There's the D'Angelico EXL-1 (severa MIK vairiants) and the Guild A150 Savoy, all plentiful in the online market. "In my neck of the woods" matters a lot less than it used to when talking about the guitar market. These strike me as similar quality to the EER (though I haven't tried an EER in a really long time, so I could be wrong). The D'A looks to command slightly higher prices (at least in Reverb sold listings), but there are plenty of all 3 that sold with asking prices in a common range, 40-ish percent below new prices.

    I think this speaks to the market being relatively over supplied for guitars at this quality and feature point. The Vestaxes have somewhat different features and visual details from the MIK ones (not having played one, I can't comment on whether they're better, but many who have played both say they are), and there are a lot fewer of them. Plus MIJ is just axiomatically "better" in the collective guitar buying mind. So higher prices make some sense.

    John

  22. #21

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    As a person somewhat addicted to buying and selling guitars, I‘ve found that price and functional value don’t necessarily correlate. With guitars, it’s all about subjective value. That varies depending on the buyer.
    Around 20 years ago I bought my first handmade arch top by a maker many of you would recognize. A short time later I tried an Epiphone Emperor Regent and found, to my dismay, that it played and sounded better than my fancy new guitar.

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gitterbug
    At least in my neck of the woods there aren't too many 17" floaters around. BTW, I had a nice 2006 D'Angelico NYL-2 by Vestax (Terada) for a while. A pressed top vs. laminate, ebony fretboard vs. rosewood, MIJ sticker and of course the brand and the looks, made it five times as expensive as the ER. Blindfolded, I could hardly tell one from the other. Objectively, there was no visual difference in build quality either.
    I bought my ER used about 12 years ago and am still shocked when I pick it up and play it by what a pittance it cost. I could never see selling it because, based on current resale values, what it would sell for would never compensate for how much I'd miss it. That's how I look at it in terms of value. I'd never sell it for what I could get for it! I guess that make it invaluable to me?

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoots
    Former owner
    Current buyer

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoots
    Former owner

  26. #25

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    I suspect there is or was a baby boomer impact where guys who had great old guitars or always wanted one can afford one now. I still haven't got my '68 L-5 but that day will come. ( and throw in a '54 gold top Les Paul). maybe a pre-war Martin ...hope my wife doesn't see this