What’s a nice drive for fusion?

**neatomic** · 03-02-2021, 07:35 PM

Originally Posted by RobbieAG

I'm not really a pedal guy, but recently listened to a Chick Corea recording with Bill Connors on guitar (Hymn to the Seventh Galaxy), and was reminded of how great a sound he got on that recording.

connors achieved that great tone mostly thru sheer volume...he used a 200 watt marshall head!

said bill-

"I had that big Marshall with at least one 4X12 bottom. I had a Maestro Phase Shifter, a Maestro full-range booster, and a volume pedal. That was it."

all primitive pedals!

here's the maestro full range boost

and a newer diy clone

cheers

**Gitfiddler** · 03-02-2021, 07:41 PM

This is what my first drive unit looked like.
It just plugged right into the amp's input. Then I plugged my guitar into the top of this thing and switched it on.
Didn't help my Vibro Champ (or my playing) sound much better, however.

**neatomic** · 03-02-2021, 08:12 PM

ah! fuzz plug ins...like the og jordan bosstone...many a 60's garage band used one...

ridiculously simple design yet somehow otherworldly! esp in them days

cheers

**citizenk74** · 03-02-2021, 09:55 PM

Originally Posted by neatomic

ah! fuzz plug ins...like the og jordan bosstone...many a 60's garage band used one...

ridiculously simple design yet somehow otherworldly! esp in them days

cheers

My first musical acquisition! Even before a guitar! Before I could play guitar! A harbinger of things to come.
Years later I see one of the Doobie Brothers sporting one on TV.

**WesParker** · 03-03-2021, 03:53 AM

Is it a real OD of Allan?

**citizenk74** · 03-03-2021, 07:41 PM

Originally Posted by WesParker

Is it a real OD of Allan?

**guavajelly** · 03-04-2021, 03:56 AM

Honestly I didn't follow all the drive pedals that were released in the last 20 years. That's because I always come back to my RAT from the 90s. I have tried some of the newer "boutique" drives (like Zendrive, Box of Rock, Simble – after that I gave up) that sound good at home but don't sit as well in the mix as the RAT – especially when playing with the neck pickup I found most of them had too much bass. The RAT cuts some bass. Between the distortion and filter control it handles everything from mild overdrive to brutal distortion. It can even do a little fuzz. And it bites through the mix like a rat.

**christianm77** · 03-04-2021, 04:41 AM

Originally Posted by ruger9

Which amp (in a box)? I mean, I think it can make my PRRI sound like a Marshall on the bridge pickup, but it's marketed as a "Dumble" style pedal. I've never played a Dumble. But I look at it, and use it as, a "thick" drive (as opposed to a "transparent drive", which means no mid-hump). It's almost like adding a drive channel to a clean amp.

Glad you're liking it so far!

actually since experimenting with it yesterday I think it probably sounds best into some sort of amp or amp sim. It sounds good without, but I think it would sound better with.

**ruger9** · 03-04-2021, 07:24 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

actually since experimenting with it yesterday I think it probably sounds best into some sort of amp or amp sim. It sounds good without, but I think it would sound better with.

WAIT, you aren't plugging it into an amp? What are you plugging into? a DI or computer? It's a pedal meant to be plugged into an amp, it's not an actual amp simulator pedal the like the Tech21 Character Series pedals (Liverpool, Blonde, etc.)- they have a speaker emulation circuit, because they are meant to be plugged into a DI of some kind.... PA, A/D interface, computer...

**christianm77** · 03-04-2021, 11:00 AM

Originally Posted by ruger9

WAIT, you aren't plugging it into an amp? What are you plugging into? a DI or computer? It's a pedal meant to be plugged into an amp, it's not an actual amp simulator pedal the like the Tech21 Character Series pedals (Liverpool, Blonde, etc.)- they have a speaker emulation circuit, because they are meant to be plugged into a DI of some kind.... PA, A/D interface, computer...

Well now I can tell you haven’t been reading my posts haha

Google ‘Impulse Response’ if you aren’t familiar with IR’s.

The speaker emulation circuit in the Tech 21 isnt very good by today’s standards (and the drive on it is frankly crap) so I’ve swapped over to using Two Notes Torpedo Wall of Sound IR’s which are pretty great actually. I can specify cab type and the kind of room acoustic and mic positions etc, all of which gives more options (and is more neighbour friendly) than simply plopping a mic in front of my amp.

That said I still feel the Dude is a bit mushy straight in with an IR. it sounds good, but I think it could sound better with some sort of preamp emulation for which I have quite a few options, both software and hardware (I’d prefer hardware for latency, which is why I’m using pedals rather than plugins).

It’s not a big deal because this is more of a thing I was curious about than a central thing I wanted.

The pedal sounds great through my Princeton (and through the amp I actually use day to day too) of course, but that’s not going to be my primary application of it for the foreseeable.

**christianm77** · 03-04-2021, 11:22 AM

I think a few people on the forum could do to check out those Wall of Sound IR’s; they probably sound very complicated but they are super easy to use and sound great .

**tomems** · 03-04-2021, 11:24 AM

JHS morning glory v4 is a great low to medium gain OD. Might be versatile for low to medium gain fusion? It sounds great to me...

**christianm77** · 03-04-2021, 11:40 AM

Originally Posted by tomems

JHS morning glory v4 is a great low to medium gain OD. Might be versatile for low to medium gain fusion? It sounds great to me...

Isn’t that what Julian Lage uses?

**tomems** · 03-04-2021, 12:29 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Isn’t that what Julian Lage uses?

yes! I saw that and then I went to YouTube… And saw the demo from pro guitar shop. That is just a great sound. I have been very happy. It can go from nearly invisible to pretty crunchy. That to me seems like it would cover all the ground that would be needed for fusion.

**ruger9** · 03-04-2021, 02:07 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Well now I can tell you haven’t been reading my posts haha

Well, I stopped when you were pleased with my comment that it sounds great through a Princeton, so I assumed....

Originally Posted by christianm77

The pedal sounds great through my Princeton (and through the amp I actually use day to day too) of course, .

See?

And yeah I agree about those Tech 21 character pedals- I'm not a fan.

**christianm77** · 03-04-2021, 02:54 PM

Originally Posted by ruger9

Well, I stopped when you were pleased with my comment that it sounds great through a Princeton, so I assumed....

See?

And yeah I agree about those Tech 21 character pedals- I'm not a fan.

They do clean perfectly well and have served me in a pinch like when I’m touring and there’s no house amp at the venue (I also like them for warming up my AER etc) but for recording theres really better options around.

The ‘Plexi’ on my FlyRig is just horrendous. I wonder if the drive is any better on the other versions?

**ruger9** · 03-04-2021, 04:12 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

They do clean perfectly well and have served me in a pinch like when I’m touring and there’s no house amp at the venue (I also like them for warming up my AER etc) but for recording theres really better options around.

The ‘Plexi’ on my FlyRig is just horrendous. I wonder if the drive is any better on the other versions?

I don't think so. I've had the "Blonde", the RK OMG (it's supposed to be a hot-rodded version of the Plexi), and another one I can't remember at the moment. I have also tried their delay & boost, and the Leslie/rotary one. I haven't found a Tech21 pedal I've liked yet.

**wzpgsr** · 03-04-2021, 05:16 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

They do clean perfectly well and have served me in a pinch like when I’m touring and there’s no house amp at the venue (I also like them for warming up my AER etc) but for recording theres really better options around.

The ‘Plexi’ on my FlyRig is just horrendous. I wonder if the drive is any better on the other versions?

I have been messing around with: Joyo American Sound (basically a Tech 21 Blonde clone, but with a slightly different EQ) —> Quilter Microblock 45 —> pine cab loaded with an Eminence GA-10 SC-64 (or whatever that thing is called) and accounting for differences in speaker and cabinet construction, I can dial in a gently pushed low-gain late 1950s tweed tone that could absolutely replace my real tweed-era Fender clone if I wanted to part with it. If I had to nitpick about this rig, it has a bit crisper of an attack than the 5Y3/6V6 squishiness of the real deal, but it’s awfully damn close. I realize this has nothing to do with this thread topic so I’ll shutup now.

**RobbieAG** · 03-04-2021, 06:25 PM

I had a little fun with this the other night. With a strat I had to run it through a boost (DOD Bifet Boost) and 2 overdrives (Boss SD1 and DOD Overdrive 250) to get anywhere close. This was through a Roland Cube 60 and headphones so that was a limitation. I expect the results with one of my humbucker guitars through my Mesa Boogie would be completely different. It really is guitar and amp dependent to get it dialed in. Not so easy to do.

**christianm77** · 03-04-2021, 07:10 PM

Originally Posted by wzpgsr

I have been messing around with: Joyo American Sound (basically a Tech 21 Blonde clone, but with a slightly different EQ) —> Quilter Microblock 45 —> pine cab loaded with an Eminence GA-10 SC-64 (or whatever that thing is called) and accounting for differences in speaker and cabinet construction, I can dial in a gently pushed low-gain late 1950s tweed tone that could absolutely replace my real tweed-era Fender clone if I wanted to part with it. If I had to nitpick about this rig, it has a bit crisper of an attack than the 5Y3/6V6 squishiness of the real deal, but it’s awfully damn close. I realize this has nothing to do with this thread topic so I’ll shutup now.

i know a mastering engineer who says he infinitely prefers the Joyo to SansAmp (less compression)

Unfortunately I could pick up Magic FM on both Joyo units I have owned and they died fairly quickly on gigs.

**bluejaybill** · 03-04-2021, 08:59 PM

Originally Posted by tomems

yes! I saw that and then I went to YouTube… And saw the demo from pro guitar shop. That is just a great sound. I have been very happy. It can go from nearly invisible to pretty crunchy. That to me seems like it would cover all the ground that would be needed for fusion.

A Morning Glory is a Bluesbreaker pedal variant. Those are generally low to mid gain, maybe not enough saturation for fusion?

But the good news is that they stack really well, you can run a boost into it and that would probably get you there.

That's the principle behind the King of Tone, which is a great but hard to get pedal. There are knockoffs of it, or you can use a MG or Prince of Tone with a boost as stated. Then you would have the versatility of two lower gain drives as well.

**tomems** · 03-06-2021, 10:28 PM

Originally Posted by bluejaybill

A Morning Glory is a Bluesbreaker pedal variant. Those are generally low to mid gain, maybe not enough saturation for fusion?

But the good news is that they stack really well, you can run a boost into it and that would probably get you there.

That's the principle behind the King of Tone, which is a great but hard to get pedal. There are knockoffs of it, or you can use a MG or Prince of Tone with a boost as stated. Then you would have the versatility of two lower gain drives as well.

Funny you mention that. I had a KoT--I liked it, but I got rid of it in favor of JHS MG v4 and a TC Spark mini...

**bluejaybill** · 03-07-2021, 12:21 PM

Originally Posted by tomems

Funny you mention that. I had a KoT--I liked it, but I got rid of it in favor of JHS MG v4 and a TC Spark mini...

It's a great combination with a lot of versatility. It does take a bit of dedication to figure out how two drives work together. On the KoT, I usually run the clean boost into the other side set to overdrive. I like that sound a lot better than setting one side for distortion, which would provide a more "fusiony" tone. This is the method used by a lot of pros, including Steve Ray Vaughn. You can also check out Trey Anastasio, who gets a pretty fusiony sound from two tube screamers set low together, plus the versatility of all manners of OD in between clean and mean.

**raal** · 03-07-2021, 03:27 PM

I found the vintage rat reissue to be a good compromise between the gated fusion sound and dynamic OD. This is through a lexicon sig 284 pre direct to DAW but would think similar results may be achieved with say a tweed. Guitar solo at 3:14.

**Woody Sound** · 03-07-2021, 03:48 PM

On this topic, has anyone tried any of the overdrive pedals that use a Nutube?

**Stevebol** · 03-07-2021, 05:03 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

The tubescreamer works well for some stuff but I feel I want something a little creamier for more legato/horn like sounds.

Any recommendations? Doesn’t have to be fancy.

I don't know what would be creamier than a Tube Screamer but for shear variety of sounds this is impressive;

**Eck** · 03-09-2021, 03:52 AM

This discussion gives me GAS!!!!!

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**WesParker** · 03-09-2021, 05:14 AM

looks impressive

**christianm77** · 03-09-2021, 07:11 AM

I like the Dude. It stays.

Got a good recorded sound the other day

Now I understand the 'Ratio' control it actually makes it the perfect drive pedal for a jazz guitarist.

And yes, it is way creamier than a tube screamer.

**wzpgsr** · 03-09-2021, 02:03 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

I like the Dude. It stays.

Got a good recorded sound the other day

Now I understand the 'Ratio' control it actually makes it the perfect drive pedal for a jazz guitarist.

And yes, it is way creamier than a tube screamer.

Do you find you get a kind of harsh, buzzy-bee quality to overdrive when playing with flatwound strings? I picked up a Daddy O because of this thread and can definitely hear it. I hear it when plugged into amp modelers, too, and always assumed it was the flats.

**citizenk74** · 03-09-2021, 02:13 PM

Originally Posted by wzpgsr

Do you find you get a kind of harsh, buzzy-bee quality to overdrive when playing with flatwound strings? I picked up a Daddy O because of this thread and can definitely hear it. I hear it when plugged into amp modelers, too, and always assumed it was the flats.

I have a Daddy-O and have never used it with flats. That said, I've never experienced the sound you describe with round-wounds. So, ? Have you tried putting an EQ before the pedal? That might lessen the burden in the low range before the D-O. I know keep the lows band well down on my Daddy-O for max creaminess. Good luck.

**christianm77** · 03-09-2021, 05:07 PM

Originally Posted by wzpgsr

Do you find you get a kind of harsh, buzzy-bee quality to overdrive when playing with flatwound strings? I picked up a Daddy O because of this thread and can definitely hear it. I hear it when plugged into amp modelers, too, and always assumed it was the flats.

I generally get a weird response of the wound strings, like a sort of fuzz pedal vibe. Lowering the drive is the way forward I think.

**icr** · 03-09-2021, 10:02 PM

In this clip I'm using the Orange channel of a Mesa Tremoverb.

**christianm77** · 03-15-2021, 02:54 PM

Well here is the Dude recorded through some amp and speaker simulation straight in. Sounds good I think! Happy ending to this thread?

**ruger9** · 03-15-2021, 03:00 PM

Just curious, where do you have the ratio (gain) set? It sounds like you've got it set pretty low?

**christianm77** · 03-15-2021, 03:13 PM

Originally Posted by ruger9

Just curious, where do you have the ratio (gain) set? It sounds like you've got it set pretty low?

Just halfway.

**christianm77** · 03-15-2021, 03:17 PM

Incidentally the ratio only functions as a gain after 12 o clock as I’m sure you know... up to there it’s a blend, which is really cool. I might post some more straightahead tones.

**bluejaybill** · 03-15-2021, 05:09 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Well here is the Dude recorded through some amp and speaker simulation straight in. Sounds good I think! Happy ending to this thread?

There's no ending once you start buying OD pedals! :>)

**citizenk74** · 03-15-2021, 05:29 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Well here is the Dude recorded through some amp and speaker simulation straight in. Sounds good I think! Happy ending to this thread?

Some mighty nice flutey-fifey upper partials there, c77. Nice work!

**ruger9** · 03-15-2021, 05:54 PM

Originally Posted by bluejaybill

There's no ending once you start buying OD pedals! :>)

That is an inconvenient truth, for many of us, LOL.

I actually need to sell some.

**blue_lu** · 03-17-2021, 12:19 PM

I have had different Zens, the Ethos and various TS. In the end they all feel boxy.

Purchased the current Kingsley Ministrel - it actually feels different when playing and sounds more "hifi" and less brittle if that makes sounds. Does the dumbly fusion thing to a t.

**ruger9** · 03-17-2021, 01:43 PM

Originally Posted by blue_lu

I have had different Zens, the Ethos and various TS. In the end they all feel boxy.

Purchased the current Kingsley Ministrel - it actually feels different when playing and sounds more "hifi" and less brittle if that makes sounds. Does the dumbly fusion thing to a t.

Those are indeed some killer tones!! Nice playing too. I had a Kingsley for awhile, I forget which one it was... I think it was the Minstrel, which was brandy-new at that time, and while it was great into a clean amp, back then that's not how I used drive pedals. It's how I would use them NOW, but back then I was looking to boost an already-driving amp, for rock tones, and tubes boosting tubes never worked well for me. So I use only solid state drive pedals.

However, now that I'm playing alot more clean than I used to... maybe I should take another look at the Kingsley stuff. I know it's top quality.

Holy crap!! I just saw the prices!! No way I'm paying that much for a drive pedal, tube or not. (this is not a criticism of Kingsley. *I* just can't pay that much for a drive pedal. IMO, it's money better spent on finding the better amp for what I'm after.)

**blue_lu** · 03-17-2021, 02:48 PM

They are super expensive, absolutely. But there is no way I am buying a dumble amp and I like the sound a lot. I have no car to lug an amp that big around. With a usual fender tube combo I can get the sounds above - so I am happy.

And compared to prices of Zendrive knock off #1000 these are built like amps, run high voltage and are - as far as I can tell, original designs. Also they sound AND FEEL a lot better than other pedals.

**christianm77** · 03-17-2021, 03:13 PM

Different way of using the Dude. Very low ratio, which means there’s a drive mixed in there but it’s very subtle. I like the way it fattens everything up.

This one is a miked amp, with a delay and reverb in the signal chain.

**ruger9** · 03-17-2021, 04:50 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Different way of using the Dude. Very low ratio, which means there’s a drive mixed in there but it’s very subtle. I like the way it fattens everything up.

This one is a miked amp, with a delay and reverb in the signal chain.

I like that tone very much!! I'm not really into DAWs and speaker emulations, modeling amps aren't quite as offensive to me LOL, but nothing beats the sound of an actual amp circuit+speaker with volume. Tubes or solid state, don't matter.

**paul.trapanese** · 03-18-2021, 08:33 AM

Kingsley pedals are amazing. Real 12ax7 tube. Simon makes a few that are on the smoother side and the Harlot is more edgy. Check out his YouTube stuff.

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**christianm77** · 03-18-2021, 08:55 AM

I like the way I bought a drive pedal and people are still recommending other ones. It’s a true guitarists mindset haha. Surely one drive is never enough?

**ruger9** · 03-18-2021, 09:38 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

I like the way I bought a drive pedal and people are still recommending other ones. It’s a true guitarists mindset haha. Surely one drive is never enough?

haha. Yes- that ALWAYS happens. And even moreso, the people who don't actually READ the OP, and recommend stuff specifically out of the OP's request window. "Tube amps only- no modelers".... "you should check out the fender Mustang".... lol

**citizenk74** · 03-18-2021, 10:39 AM

Originally Posted by ruger9

haha. Yes- that ALWAYS happens. And even moreso, the people who don't actually READ the OP, and recommend stuff specifically out of the OP's request window. "Tube amps only- no modelers".... "you should check out the fender Mustang".... lol

On the "glass is half full" side, they mean well, and may not have enough time to read a long thread. It's the thought that counts.

**Paulie2** · 03-18-2021, 10:48 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

I like the way I bought a drive pedal and people are still recommending other ones. It’s a true guitarists mindset haha. Surely one drive is never enough?

Yep, I have three on my board... I keep a TS-style, a clean boost and a D-style overdrive. After cycling through all three I decided it was just easier to keep 3 and have them accessible.

Not jazz at all or even fusion, but I always really liked the tone of this strat through the dude into a Fender