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  1. #1

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    Hi I'm Henry and I'm new here,just wanna ask,does the shorter style of tailpiece change the tension of the strings?

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  3. #2

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    No. It might change the perceived tension, however. The tension is strictly a function of the strings, the scale length, and the tuning. However, the stiffness the player feels can be affected by the total string length. The longer the total length, the softer the feel, usually, for most, on most guitars.


  4. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by henryocq
    Hi I'm Henry and I'm new here,just wanna ask,does the shorter style of tailpiece change the tension of the strings?


    A string of a given mass tuned to a given pitch over a given scale length will have a given tension, regardless of the length of string behind the nut or after the bridge. As sgosnell has pointed out, the perceived tension may vary.

  5. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgosnell
    No. It might change the perceived tension, however. The tension is strictly a function of the strings, the scale length, and the tuning. However, the stiffness the player feels can be affected by the total string length. The longer the total length, the softer the feel, usually, for most, on most guitars.

    Can this softer feel be achieved by more winds around the tuning pegs? Would love to discover a way to make all my guitars feel as good under my fingers as my ES-125 without having to lower string gauge.

  6. #5

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    henryocq,

    Nice to meet you.

    I'm with them other guys.

    I always like the fretting hand feel of a trapeze tailpiece with 2.5" or more
    of 'free string length' between the trapeze & bridge.

    wzpgsr's Gibson also has the benefit of a shorter scale-length, a good thing for me also.
    But, I don't think you get any advantage from changes at the tuner.

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by wzpgsr
    Can this softer feel be achieved by more winds around the tuning pegs? Would love to discover a way to make all my guitars feel as good under my fingers as my ES-125 without having to lower string gauge.
    I don't think so - the length under tension would be from the edge of the tuner to the tailpiece. A lot of windings just leads to tuning problems, in my experience.

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by wzpgsr
    Can this softer feel be achieved by more winds around the tuning pegs?
    no...that would make it feel more taut...as it increases the string angle from the nut to the peg bottom

    same applies at the tailpiece end...the angle that it hits the bridge determines taut feeling...the sharper the angle the more taut

    playing with the angle changes feel and tone..that's the principle behind the frequensator bridge!



    cheers

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by henryocq
    Hi I'm Henry and I'm new here,just wanna ask,does the shorter style of tailpiece change the tension of the strings?
    welcome aboard

    so the answer would be a shorter tailpiece will make the strings feel less taut...but can also cause the strings to jump from the bridge saddle slots...from too shallow an angle...it's a delicate balance

    oldtime bigsby users know that the b6 bigsby feels far different than the b7..(with added tension bar)...most guys prefer the feel of the b6..but on some guitars that b7 tension bar is needed to keep the strings from jumpin the saddle slots

    b3-b6-b7 (l-r)

    Short trapeze tailpiece tension-bigsbys-jpg



    cheers
    Last edited by neatomic; 02-22-2021 at 11:16 PM.

  10. #9

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    Woaa thanks so much for all of you,didnt expect to get this so much info and hey I just learn a lot from you guys,thanks,people here are knowledgeable and warm

  11. #10

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    Careful when making a distinction between “info” and odd, unfathomable commentary.

    The modern lexicon distinguishes between tension and compliance.

    They are often confused, despite the extremely simple difference.

    Tension is a simple function as already described above.

    Compliance is a more complex (yet still very simple) description of the amount of force needed to move a given string down to the fret.

    It is not the same as tension.

    No.

    Really, no.

    Crazy simple Newtonian Physics. NO.

    To your original question: a shorter tailpiece has absolutely no effect on tension. It will have a theoretical effect on compliance, but in most cases (due to friction over the bridge saddles) will have no observable effect on compliance.

    Remarkably, this does not stop people from feeling a difference in what they call “tension”.

    This is an artifact of human perception and confirmation bias, and not an artifact of the effects of a given tailpiece.

  12. #11

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    With the same strings, I can't tell a difference with my Frequensator equipped Broadway (25.5" scale) and my telecaster. I also don't care how the pole pieces line up with the strings.

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bezoeker
    Careful when making a distinction between “info” and odd, unfathomable commentary.
    how's this for fathomable

    your smugness is only outdone by your verbosity

    spend less time with the science books and more time in real world guitar tech..decades of guitar design tradition all meaningless? cause you say so? you'd be the guy that told eric johnson that the differences he noticed in 9 volt batteries was all illusion...cause you can't hear it!

  14. #13

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    I would be happy to tell him, because it's not scientifically possible. Volts is volts. Different batteries have different voltages, of course, and that voltage is always changing as the battery is used. But claiming to be able to hear any difference between different brands of batteries is simply over-inflated ego, mixed with woo. But pretty much every post in the thread has said exactly the same thing, in slightly different words, some with fewer words than others.

  15. #14

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    ^

    ((APPRECIATE THE SUPPORT!))



  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by AllanAllen
    With the same strings, I can't tell a difference with my Frequensator equipped Broadway (25.5" scale) and my telecaster. I also don't care how the pole pieces line up with the strings.
    If there is no practical movement of the strings over the bridge on the Broadway, then what you describe makes complete sense. (Ignoring the headstock for the sake of keeping this simple.)

    One way to try to isolate the question of compliance is to bend your B string up a full step at the 12th feet and measure how far you had to bend it.

    A guitar with softer compliance (but equal tension) to another will require you to move the string a greater lateral distance to get the full step pitch change.

    This is really easy to see on a Bigsby equipped guitar. As you bend the B string up a full step you may well note the Bigsby diving a little as it responds to the added tension (yes actual tension) when you bend the string. This then requires a greater total lateral bend to eventually get the same pitch change.

    As for hyperventilating over all of this: I am pretty sure that has no effect on tension or compliance, or simple understanding vs. enduring myths.

    The battery thing is funny.
    Last edited by Bezoeker; 02-23-2021 at 01:16 PM. Reason: Two spelling errors

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by wzpgsr
    Can this softer feel be achieved by more winds around the tuning pegs? Would love to discover a way to make all my guitars feel as good under my fingers as my ES-125 without having to lower string gauge.
    If you want to use the same strings on all your guitars and keep the same tension, all those guitars will need to have the same scale. A longer scale with the same strings will always increase tension by the same amount.

    If you want two guitars with the same scale length and strings to have a similar feel, I think there are many other factors more important than the tailpiece: neck width & depth, fretboard radius, frets, nut, action, etc. Those factors can effect playing effort, which might be perceived as a difference in tension, but tension is actually unchanged.

    I think the effect of the tailpiece is mostly in how the vibrations of the strings are transmitted to the top of the guitar, especially if the break angle over the bridge has changed, since that changes the force perpendicular to the surface. Break angle doesn’t change the string tension though.

    The tailpiece has a great affect on tone, since it’s coupled to the vibration of the strings. It can dampen them or introduce resonances of its own. The mass, materials and geometry of the tailpiece all come into play. The strings between the bridge and tailpiece introduce resonances too. Sometimes I’ll weave a felt strap between them to tame those vibrations.

    Bottom line: I’d select a bridge based on tone, not on how it affects tension.

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by henryocq
    Woaa thanks so much for all of you,didnt expect to get this so much info and hey I just learn a lot from you guys,thanks,people here are knowledgeable and warm
    Hi Henry, so the short answer to your question is that the perceived difference between long and short tailpieces might very well be negligible. A perhaps more practical and instantly noticeable way of varying string tension would be to go up or down a gauge.
    Last edited by Peter C; 02-24-2021 at 03:28 PM. Reason: typo

  19. #18

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    ugh...

    from a guy that knows a bit about teles...jim campilongo

    he uses a top loader tele...as opposed to string thru body

    his thoughts-

    "1959 was the only year Fender produced string through BRIDGE and not BODY. As far as the Toploader -- I think the feel and sound is a bit more "rubbery" than a standard Tele."

    also the mascis jazzmaster moved the tailpiece closer to the bridge...completely different feel and tone than normal jm..that's why he did it!...also helps with strings jumping the saddles...a fender R&D product!

    mascis with gold pg...w tailpiece closer to bridge....sounds/feels way different...with same exact gauge/brand strings! i have both!


    cheers

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by neatomic
    ugh...

    from a guy that knows a bit about teles...jim campilongo

    he uses a top loader tele...as opposed to string thru body

    his thoughts-

    "1959 was the only year Fender produced string through BRIDGE and not BODY. As far as the Toploader -- I think the feel and sound is a bit more "rubbery" than a standard Tele."

    also the mascis jazzmaster moved the tailpiece closer to the bridge...completely different feel and tone than normal jm..that's why he did it!...also helps with strings jumping the saddles...a fender R&D product!

    mascis with gold pg...w tailpiece closer to bridge....sounds/feels way different...with same exact gauge/brand strings! i have both!


    cheers
    My 24.75” scale string-through-body Tele-ish guitar is the one that feels very stiff with TI 12s.

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by wzpgsr
    My 24.75” scale string-through-body Tele-ish guitar is the one that feels very stiff with TI 12s.
    and thoms are considered low tension strings!...with thin inner cores...and soft pure nickel wraps

    try a bridge that does toploader as well as string thru..like this wilkinson (inexpensive)...and find out for yourself!



    top loader tele is my fave for feel...

    cheers

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by neatomic
    and thoms are considered low tension strings!...with thin inner cores...and soft pure nickel wraps

    try a bridge that does toploader as well as string thru..like this wilkinson (inexpensive)...and find out for yourself!



    top loader tele is my fave for feel...

    cheers
    Never owned a Strat or Tele, how far from the top surface of the body (or bridge plate) are the ferrules that hold the string balls? IOW, what is the difference in distance between the top loading and back loading?

  23. #22

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    Changing a Telecaster from string-through to top-loader would reduce the break angle over the bridge, reducing the force on the bridge against the top (F3 in this figure).



    Moving a the tailpiece of a Jazzmaster toward the bridge would increase the break angle over the bridge, increasing F3. Those changes don’t affect string tension, but they will likely change the tone of the guitar and how it responds to transients (e.g., picking) and string bending.

    I think neck resets typically increase the break angle over the bridge and force F3. Reshimming a bolt-on neck has the same effect. I’ve done some experiments with that. As you increase the neck angle you must raise the bridge to keep the action the same. Raising the bridge increases the break angle over the bridge, and the force F3. There’s a distinct change in tone, especially if the neck angle was initially too low.