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Looking for a Gibson ES-175 or L4... Any advise? New or used? Or maybe you have another suggestion?
I currently have a 275... just isn't quite doing what I want it to do.
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02-09-2021 09:53 AM
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Welcome to the forum!
I have not played L4 but have played a lot on a ES175(s) and had an ES275. (Had to eventually sold it because I compared it to the ES175 all the time and the 175 won!)
What are You looking afterr? Great sounding archtop for home and studio or a jazz tool for club gigs and home and studio?
ES175 is laminated so it does not feedback as easily as carved top L4. Easier on live situations. Maybe durable too in changing climate, I don’t know?
At least here in Northern Europe the L4s cost almost double to ES175. I would feel a bit uncomfortable to take it to gigs in messy clubs where my band sometimes play out.
The ES275 is not far from these others, maybe different string brand will make it do what You need? Or a custom made ebony bridge? Or an ABM bell brass bridge?
Here in the JGF is tons of knowledge about these three instruments, use search and You’ll learn a lot.
Good luck for the quest! And tell us which did You choose!
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Originally Posted by srim
Looking for a Gibson ES-175 or L4... Any advise? New or used? Or maybe you have another suggestion?
I currently have a 275... just isn't quite doing what I want it to do.
In answer to your query, yes. The Gibson ES-175 is a splendid, one might say iconic jazz guitar. I've had a couple; one new and one used. The new one, an '04, was a lot more dough and much better looking (curly maple as far as the eye can see) and better sounding if you have bat-like hearing ('57 Classics). The used one I got in the '70s and had a volute (which I like) and a sunburst finish (ditto) and was a fine guitar that got me yelled at on the bandstand every time I pulled it out ("play the Les Paul! Play the 345! Play the Strat!") in my dance band (many people hear through their eyes - true fact). Later, in my jazz years, I got nothing but complements from my bandmates when I played the '04 (and they didn't yell at me when I got out my '86 PRS CU24, go figure).
The Gibson L-4 is even snazzier, with a solid, carved top and the second-coolest tailpiece on the planet. Perhaps slightly more feedback-prone than the 175, it is nonetheless a perfectly useable jazz guitar. I would be proud to own either, so I am half-way there.
Just curious ( a polite way of saying "nosey') - what is the 275 ( a guitar I have long coveted) not doing, if I may ask?
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I have a 1968 ES175D, purchased new, after looking into Eastman and owning a AR610. I am giving serious thought to getting the Eastman clone of the 175.
Save your money and look into Eastman.Last edited by BBGuitar; 02-11-2021 at 07:37 PM.
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With respect, the Eastman's are by all accounts very nice instruments in their own right. However, if one is seeking something that emulates the ES-175's "thunk" or its equivalent, one may be disappointed. I believe it has to do with the proprietary maple-poplar-maple laminate. Just my personal, and perhaps erroneous, opinion. Originally Posted by BBGuitar
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From my recent experience, after having two 175, one of them a VOS edition and after keeping an Epiphone 175 I must tell they all have in common the size, shape and sound that comes from that model, the tonal characteristic that comes from that particular shape and type of construction, and that is what you need to know; the differences in the built quality are very small. Besides that, differences are aesthetical or come from pickup/bridge. Whatever choice you do you may have to change pickups, to suit your personal preferences. Originally Posted by citizenk74
With respect, the Eastman's are by all accounts very nice instruments in their own right. However, if one is seeking something that emulates the ES-175's "thunk" or its equivalent, one may be disappointed. I believe it has to do with the proprietary maple-poplar-maple laminate. Just my personal, and perhaps erroneous, opinion.
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Originally Posted by ruis
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I have a new 2017 175. Maybe one of the last ones made. Don’t think there are many, if any, new 175s available. A new L4 is a unicorn.
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My usual .02US$. Save your money and look at the Ibanez AF series. They thunk, not like the Eastmans.
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And don't forget the ES165 (Herb Ellis) - find the 90's version and it's basically a 175 without a bridge pickup and usually cheaper. Fine guitars.
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Used is the only possibility for either because Gibson is not currently making new ones. There are a bunch of each on Reverb, probably more on eBay. 175's are not hard to find online elsewhere, as well, so you should be able to find one pretty easily; L4's are less common. The two models sound somewhat different from each other because of the differences in materials and position of the neck pickup, so be aware of that and try to play each to get the flavor of the differences. Originally Posted by srim
Looking for a Gibson ES-175 or L4... Any advise? New or used? Or maybe you have another suggestion?
I currently have a 275... just isn't quite doing what I want it to do.
If you do advanced searches on this site for keywords such as "175 copy" ,"175 Clone" or some of the specifics models that emulate 175's (in varying degrees) you'll find tons of discussion that could give you ideas for alternatives at various price points (for example: Aria EA-650, Aria Herb Ellis, Aria PE-175, Ibanez FA100, Ibanez FG100, Ibanez 2355, Greco, Epiphone ES-175 Premium, Epiphone Zephyr Regent, Guild X-150, Seventy-Seven Hawk and Hawk Jazz). Also consider the Gibson ES-165/Herb Ellis, which is a 1-pickup ES-175 with some different decorative elements (and usually a bit less expansive than a 175). There's also the Ibanez PM200, which Metheny says is indistinguishable tone-wise from his 175 (though lots of people debate this). You will also find tons of debate on what is and is not truly a 175 copy based on what people think the essence of the 175 sound is. Enjoy that (or not ...). FWIW, I went through this process recently and wound up with a Seventy-Seven Hawk Jazz. It's not an exact copy, but has a good bit of 175-ness to it (they're not very common, though, so don't bank on being able to find one).
John
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Willie's American Guitars St.Paul,Mn. currently has a red L--4CES for sale . I'm sure you could work a trade for it with your Gibson.
The L-4CES will have a better acoustic response and get you to that. Classic Jazz tone. The 175 will do the same but not as pleasantly unplugged.
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If you are at all thinking about a 175, just get one. You can find them quite easily on the used market for not an arm and a leg. They're not being offered new anymore, so you'll have to go used.
Speaking of which...many people praise the Epiphone 175 that came out a few years ago--the Pro with the Gibson Classic 57's. If you can find one of those, it would be a great way to get the sound without the price.
From when I looked recently the 165 was quite a bit cheaper, in fact I was surprised how affordable they were on the used market. Wish I had gotten one years ago.
I agree with others the Eastman is a nice guitar but doesn't sound like the 175, to my ears at least.
+1 on Willie's Guitars. Absolutely top-notch place and nice guys. They know their guitars, and price everything fairly.
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You can either follow the sheep heard to a 175 or note just how amazing and full an L4CES can be without the herd (or heard) of followers can be.
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Both make great guitar sounds. One is for followers.
Choose your path.
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The Eastman 175 clone doesn't sound like a 175.
The only 175 copy I've ever heard that sounded pretty much like a 175 was the aforementioned Epiphone.
L4's are cool. You don't see many folks playing them, though.
I don't think of the ubiquity of 175's in jazz players hands to be "following" though. They sound great, and a lot of people spend a lot of time and money chasing the sounds of a 175 with different guitars that just don't do it.
Very often, I see posts like "I'm looking for a guitar to get sounds like Joe Pass, Jonathan Kriesberg, old Jim Hall and early Pat Metheny" and people are still recommending things other than a 175!
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Definitely hear you on this. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
For most, the answer is to just get a 175. For “the few” the answer may just be to grab an L4 CES and find out just how much full and expressive “TONE” may be there if you are able to not be in the “herd”.
But I definitely understand the comfort of the herd.
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Find your “comfort zone”
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But note that for some it may be better to “comfort the afflicted” AND “afflict the comfortable”
That is where the L4 CES lives.
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Longtime ES-175 owner/player. If "just grabbing" an L-4 were as simple as you seem to make it sound, I'd have two by now (system redundancy is my gigging mantra). I don't know what the manufacturing numbers are. I only know I have never encountered one in the flesh. For those out there fortunate enough to own one or more of these unequivocally fine instruments, I congratulate you. You have a fine instrument indeed. Originally Posted by Bezoeker
Especially those of you who don't feel compelled to slam the owners of other, less prestigious* instruments. I appreciate your tact.
* According to some - everyone's got an opinion....
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For some reason, there seems to be no less prestigious an instrument than the L4 CES. I have had two, and played maybe 5 or 6. I am not a skillful enough player to “endorse” the L4CES. But I am possibly able to note that the guitar really has a neck PU up where it senses the longer vibrations of the string, and a spruce top that (while less forgiving maybe) really brings some acoustic life to one’s overall sound. Originally Posted by citizenk74
Longtime ES-175 owner/player. If "just grabbing" an L-4 were as simple as you seem to make it sound, I'd have two by now (system redundancy is my gigging mantra). I don't know what the manufacturing numbers are. I only know I have never encountered one in the flesh. For those out there fortunate enough to own one or more of these unequivocally fine instruments, I congratulate you. You have a fine instrument indeed.
Especially those of you who don't feel compelled to slam the owners of other, less prestigious* instruments. I appreciate your tact.
* According to some - everyone's got an opinion....
I really love some of the Joe Diorio vids where he really makes the L4 CES sing.
But again, I definitely get that I lack the mentality of the majority - who are surely right.
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L-4CES is a fully carved guitar which on the used market presently is around $4k
Mark. The used market on ES-175 is at least $3 k presently and above.
Although I understand the laminate vs carved top benefits when it comes to feedback issues. I don't tsee that being much of an issue between these 2 models.
And for less than $1k difference you get a hand carved archtop. Which definitely gives the instrument a much more pleasant t acoustic tone as well.
To me it's a no brainer which is the better deal!
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As far as I can tell, not even all Gibson ES-175s sound like an ES-175, let alone guitars by other manufacturers. The ones from the mid to late 50s sound different from the ones in the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s or 2000s. Top thickness varied, bracing varied, body and neck materials varied, pickups varied, finishes varied, etc. There is no single Gibson ES-175 sound.
Pat Metheny believes his Ibanez sounds exactly like his ES-175, but that is with his hands through his rig. He says that half of the songs on "Secret Story" (or was it "Question and Answer?") were recorded with his old ES-175 and half were recorded with the Ibanez, and no one has ever been able to accurately tell him which songs are which. His rig is such that it probably colors the sound a lot. Somebody else might get very different results with those instruments.
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Citizen74K :- Originally Posted by citizenk74
In answer to your query, yes. The Gibson ES-175 is a splendid, one might say iconic jazz guitar. I've had a couple; one new and one used. The new one, an '04, was a lot more dough and much better looking (curly maple as far as the eye can see) and better sounding if you have bat-like hearing ('57 Classics). The used one I got in the '70s and had a volute (which I like) and a sunburst finish (ditto) and was a fine guitar that got me yelled at on the bandstand every time I pulled it out ("play the Les Paul! Play the 345! Play the Strat!") in my dance band (many people hear through their eyes - true fact). Later, in my jazz years, I got nothing but complements from my bandmates when I played the '04 (and they didn't yell at me when I got out my '86 PRS CU24, go figure).
The Gibson L-4 is even snazzier, with a solid, carved top and the second-coolest tailpiece on the planet. Perhaps slightly more feedback-prone than the 175, it is nonetheless a perfectly useable jazz guitar. I would be proud to own either, so I am half-way there.
Just curious ( a polite way of saying "nosey') - what is the 275 ( a guitar I have long coveted) not doing, if I may ask?
I suggest that you might be disappointed with any of the Es 275 incarnations. I have had two, and was unimpressed,
bought a new RI '59 Es 175 and it was terrible ,it rattled , was heavy , three guitar techs agreed it was unplayable
sent back to Gibson who claimed there was nothing wrong with it !! , I had a used L4CES, mahog back and sides
and it sounded almost as good as my L5CES guitars, entirely different to a ES175 ,and for me infinitely better.
Just my 2p , but i am very fussy with guitars, acquiring my Campellone satisfied my requirements in all respects.
in addition to my Custom Shop Gibsons & others.
Kind regards 007
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May I refer you to my reply to Citizen74 on the subject, I suggest a good L4CES is superior in terms of tone and playability Originally Posted by srim
Looking for a Gibson ES-175 or L4... Any advise? New or used? Or maybe you have another suggestion?
I currently have a 275... just isn't quite doing what I want it to do.
There will be many who will disagree, but if the Joe Pass one pickup ES175 ( with Gold hardware) became available it
might be a different answer,
Silverfoxx aka 007
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