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Have anyone tried their MIJ archtop offerings, the FA235-245s?
I'm sort of thinking about getting my first arch top, preferably something in a 175 vein, and since Gibson stopped building those, I'm looking into the available options here in Europe.Ibanez is a known quantity and I trust their quality. I've read all the threads here about Eastmans and Seventy Sevens, but one name that isn't mentioned too often is Tokai. I've owned a couple of their MIJ 335 styles and found them to be very good workhorses but I've never seen one of their archtops.
So, if you have any hands on experience with their upscale archtops, tell me whether they are good instruments, and how you like them in terms of value for money
Video clips just because
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02-03-2021 11:24 AM
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I had an old Goya Es 345 copy years ago Japan made I’m assuming they where most likely from the same factory and it was an wonderful guitar
Originally Posted by Average Joe
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If it was made my Matsumoku, just like Aria and many others, it's likely a very fine guitar, assuming it's a representative specimen and hasn't suffered damage or abuse. My Aria Pro II PE180 is a solid a clone of an L5ces as you could want at a third or even a quarter the price.
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From my limited experience with Japanese guitars. While they do a great job of copying the aesthetic, the finish is usually a heavier poly type.
If this is not of concern to you than buy all means save some money.
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Well, they claim it's lacquer, but of course that could be a range of things. Originally Posted by jads57
As for price, I could buy a Gibson, except new 175s are comparatively rare these days. But it's true that I wouldn't mind paying less if I can get a comparable product. I suppose that's partly what I'm askingLast edited by Average Joe; 02-03-2021 at 01:03 PM.
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There are MIJ tokais circa 1980, and MIK tokais 1995(?)-current. I am guessing the MIJs were better made and more valuable.
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This is an interesting topic. Visiting Tokai's website, one can only find some solidbodies. Nothing on their LP's or 335 clones, which are universally praised by rock'n'roll players. The Finnish importer, Musamaailma, had a store full of them when I visited before Covid. MIJ models have quite steep price tags, the MIK parallel models cost between a quarter and a third.
This thread tends to refer to Tokai's 175-type jazz boxes as vintage stuff. Musamaailma posted a demo video on one as recently as 2019. However, they don't list the model anymore.
I've tried them a couple of times and the first impression is: you can't get closer to the original. The zigzag tailpiece, fret markings, mahogany neck (IIRC) are there; the workmanship, flawless. What held the model back I think was the price, almost 3,000 EUR. You could get the real thing for almost the same, or a pre-lawsuit MIJ 175 for half of that. I'm not saying the original is necessarily any better, but it starts with a G.
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Part of the lack of commentary must come from the fact that there are so few of them in the US because Gibson has so effectively kept high quality clones out. Fender was a little less aggressive about this for a while, and there was a period when Tokai Strat and Tele clones were relatively common, but I don't think I've ever seen one of their Gibson copies in the flesh (and what I've seen on Reverb has all been non-US sellers). FWIW, I can very enthusiastically vouch for the 77 Hawk Jazz, but sorry I can't answer your question directly. Originally Posted by Average Joe
John
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the original japanese made tokais were nicely made guitars...like ibanez, they handed out a lot of freebies to american musicians playing in japan...and not only to the band leaders!!...a friend of mine, a hired bassist, came back from a small tour of japan with 3 new tokai's given to him...a strat, a les paul and a bass....the great thing about tokai is that they made their logo look like fender on the strat, and made the same name look like gibson on the lp!!
i'm sure the japanese tokai version of a 175 is a nice guitar
cheers
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Played one of these recently
Tokai 'Premium Series' FA-245 175-Style Hollow Body Archtop Electric G – Tokai Guitars Australia
Very nice but outside my price range. Definitely a thinner finish than the poly on my Ibanez SJ300 and significantly lighter in weight.
Cheers
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I'm partial to Tokai for the silly reason that they are located in my wife's hometown of Hamamatsu, where we live when we can. (Hamamatsu is also home to Yamaha Musical Instruments and Kawai Piano. The Kawai family still lives across the street.)
I've got two strats ("Springy Sound") and two teles ("Breezy Sound") from that 1979/1980 period when the were making excellent Fender copies. I like them a lot. I think they are actually better than most Fenders I could afford. And they were cheap on the used market back when.
But I have to admit I have no experience with their more recent archtops, so I can't really help to answer your question. And even though I am kind of an old-school Tokai fanboy, if I was looking into MIJ archtops these days I would look long and hard at Seventy-Seven. Those guitars are very impressive to me.
Good luck, whatever you do.
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Thanks for the input all. It's true that I'm asking about the current ones rather than the "vintage", or at least old, range.
About Seventy Seven: Two things give me pause re those. First, I've never ad my hands on one. They see to be available pretty much from a single vendor here on the continent, and I'm not anywhere near Brittany as often as I would like. Secondly, it seems most of the new ones this vendor offer are now something called the Japan Tune-up line, which are offered at lower prices than previous models. That lead me to suspect that they are made somewhere else in asia and then brought to Japan for a tuneup. I wonder about the provenance.
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I'm not 100% sure, but I think the JT ones are made in Korea. The guy behind this Reverb store (Bobs Fine Guitars! | Reverb) used to post here a lot about 77 and MIJ guitars in general. He'd probably be a good person to ask. Originally Posted by Average Joe
I think with any of these MIJ brands (except relatively recent Ibanez), it's extremely difficult to find them in stores. You may have to resign yourself to buying online. More and more, guitars are becoming an online market.
John
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I think the new ones are Chinese made like the new berny
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this site is pretty up to date and shows the tokai fa-235 as being made in japan and with a laquer finish...nice specs!...& comes in natural as well
FA235 - Tokai Guitars
cheers
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Like I said, closest to the original!
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this burny is indeed chinese made but might still be a pretty good instrument. Originally Posted by silvertonebetty
Burny RFA 75 Shortscale Jazz Guitar Brown Sunburst . Pre | Reverb
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Well I'm certainly going to pull the trigger on a Tokai FA245 in blond finish.
After really hesitating with all the Es175 copies around.. Eastman T49, Stanford Fatboy, Ibanez lawsuit 2355 of sorts.
Even tried to find the real Gibson but the ones I observed where really in less than good shape for the asking price, and the near mint ones are over 4000€. I just can't pay that kind of money.
So I found a mint FA245, I should get it for 2100 €. After hesitating at the limit of nonsense, I'm going for the Tokai, that seems to be the only representation of the real thing outside paying a tremendous amount of cash.
I tried to listen all the demos I could find, which are almost inexistant..
Most of them I find the guitar very trebly and aggressive sounding for a Es175?
But there is one that gets a really great sound, the second one in the beginning of this thread.
So I suspect that on most of the demoes the guys don't use it as it should (well for us), and don't know get the guitar to it's sweet spot.
Anyone has tried this model since?
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I had a blonde Tokai FA-180 which is essentially the same as the 245. They just change the model number over the years to reflect the price increase (I believe). It was when they fist came out in the early 2010's. Originally Posted by Jx30510
It was a very well made but quite sterile and brittle sounding. The tone is quite thin as you can hear in all the videos posted. It doesn't thunk like a 175.
It also doesn't really feel like an 175 for some reason I can't quite explain. I think the radius on the neck is very flat?
I sold mine to a happy buyer. They are nice guitars, just not for me. I need a touch more soul and I say that as someone who likes pretty sterile sounding Japanese guitars, as a base for my tone.
Of course there will be a lot of tonal variation between the examples made, such is the nature of guitars.
It's also likely a polly finish with a lacquer spray on top but Collings do that too.
I wouldn't dissuade you from one but for the money I would be all over a 77.
If the look is something you're after, then the Tokai does that well and I can't think of too many others, who could provide that.
Imo the batter guitar is a Greco FA-80-95 but they are harder to find and can't be bought new.
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I have a Tokai FA245 blonde which is just a year old. The obvious differences from the ES175 are the cosmetic wider spacing of the tailpiece wires and the frets being without the characteristic Gibson nibs. This one is a flawlessly made instrument, perfectly set up and soundwise it fits neatly into the spectrum of ES175s. It weighs 7lb 5.5oz or 3.33kg
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OK thanks for both of your thoughts
Well I purchased it, gotta wait for it to arrive, not before the end of next week I suppose.
I wonder why they are such differences with the Gibson (thinner sounding) , since they seem to follow the exact specs of the original?
Maybe the pickups? I have a very rare Ibanez AC100, made in Japan in 1989, it plays very very well, kind of a thinner Es 175, hog neck and maple plywood, which I put Gibson 57 pickups in, it sounds glorious.
What I look for is the feel and playability, the looks, and the wood quality. I suspect that the pickups aren't at the same level as the rest.
What I hear in the videos seems to be weak pickups..
I'll see
The latest FA model from tokai for 2022 is now the FA268 by the way.
It is not the best way to name models by the cost in my opinion..
With the inflation of these last months, in 2023 it'll be the FA500?
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Aquin43, that is good news to hear. Always a bit anxious to buy a guitar without trying it, but these days, jazz guitars are very scarce in shops, pandemic supply problems I suppose?
Even online giant stores such as Thomann here in Europe don't have any stock in the Jazz guitar department. I like buying with them because they have a great return policy, no fuss. I don't usually buy guitars to send them back, it happened maybe twice the last 10 years for me, and for very good reasons each time.
Anyway I purchased the Tokai on Reverb, the seller is in Spain (I'm in France), and in no case I 'll send it back if I don' t bond with it. Fingers crossed, I hope not.
So have you been able to compare it with other Es175 style guitars? What I wish to have is that distinctive electric sound, that is more characteristic of the modern heavy built Es 175.
I didn't go for Eastman because I know, while very good and impressive value, they are on the bright side, airy and acoustic like.
I own an Eastman T64, it's a great, awesome instrument, but I can hear the Eastman "sound" exactly as described by so many, and I didn't want to have an instrument with that same DNA.
So can you tell us a little more about your Tokai, sound, playability, overall feeling? Are you happy with the pickups?
Maybe that Tokai archtops have changed in their building process since Archtop Heaven's experience with the FA 180? It was 10 years ago after all..If I understand it was their first attempt with Es175 clones back then?
What are your impressions with the lacquer finish? Is it kind of plasicky, oversprayed and on the heavy side. I am curious about the fact, like AH said, that it's poly oversprayed with nitro?
That would a little upsetting since Tokai seem to highly advertise the Lacquer finish (hence the sticker on the pickguard)..
Thanks in advance!
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The Japanese makers are a great bunch but you have to be careful with their advertising Originally Posted by Jx30510
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(I took of the pickguard, I always do so)
So the Tokai FA245 arrived. In perfect shape, like new. The serial number makes me think it's from 2019.
The setup was way of, the bridge much too far from the neck, and therefore intonation was bad.
The previous owner had put little pieces of tape under the two feet bridge as a reference. The guitar must have never been intonnated correctly?
The two feet rosewood bridge wasn't flush on the top.
The trussrod much too tight, so no neck relief.
All this made the guitar plinky, stiff and thin sounding out of the box.
I cannot know if this terrible setup was from Tokai or the first owner, but I would be surprised that a high end Tokai goes out the factory like that.
So the first playing experience was not that good but I knew the guitar needed immediately a global setup.
The neck is great, 43mm nyt and a deep U profile, I love it.
The woods are superb, the pickups sound great, and the electronics are very high quality (CTS pots, Switchcraft selector, orange Sprague capacitors).
The tuners seem to have a high ratio and are very precise. The bone nut (cow) is masterfully cut.
The Gotoh TOM bridge has brass saddles. First time I see this. Saddles are very well cut to match the strings.
For the setup
I had a spare ebony one piece bridge base. I spent a couple of hours to sand it perfectly flush with the top.
I put roundwounds 11-48 nickel wound strings, adjusted the neck relief with a very light bow, the string at the seventh fret barely touching it.
I adjusted the intonnation, very easily, to be perfect (I mean dead on perfect) by moving the bridge a good centimeter towards the neck from where it initially was.
After precise little further adjustments, the guitar plays perfectly, one of the best playability I've ever encountered. It reminds me of an Ibanez Gb10 in that department, typical high end Japanese work.
I'm delighted with this ES175 clone, it is much better than an Epiphone ES175 Premium I had. The thunk is definitely there, beautiful low end on the bass strings, and the guitar really sings on the high register, inspiring single notes that sustain and are quite hypnotizing.
This guitar is a real joy to play, I get completely lost just letting chords ring and add light melodies on top.
The setup was VERY important to arrive to the final result. I have a good experience doing it, but I imagine that someone getting the guitar without a good setup would be less than overwhelmed.
And by the way, to respond to Archtop Heaven's comment on the lacquer. I 'm not sure about it. The guitar is beautifully finished, with a vintage brownish natural sheen, but it does not smell like your typical Gibson nitrocellulose finish (think vanilla).
My 10 year old daughter loves the nitrocellulose smell. Each time I bring a new guitar home, she rushes when I open the case "does this one smell vanilla?"
Well, the Tokai didn't pass "that" test
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