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OK so, this question may seem a little odd? I'm looking for tips on how to make an electric archtop- with BODY MOUNTED pickups, like an ES-175, to sound as "hollow" as possible.... meaning, to sound less like a solidbody electric guitar, and more like an archtop with a floating pickup, for example.
I realize they are different beasts, just looking for tips to maximize the "hollowness" of my guitar.... I think the pickups (it's a Gretsch, so they are Filtertrons) may be holding me back from a "woodier" tone (I think P90s, for example, would do a better job of that than mid-scooped humbuckers would do, which is what Filtertrons are).
Anyway, any tips on maximizing the "woody hollow" tone of a fully-hollow-but-electric archtop?
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01-26-2021 08:02 AM
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Others may not agree, but I've always thought that low wind, unpotted humbuckers, do a perfect job of this. The reason being that the microphonic qualities of the pickup act like a microphone (well duhhh) to pick up the actual sound of the guitar. I have unpotted, A2 pickups in my SG and you can almost taste the mahogany. I also have a Seth Lover in my Dot and it really brings out the acoustic qualities of the guitar in a very musical way.
"Microphonic" has negative connotations these days due, IMO, to the rock and heavy metal folks sometimes experiencing squealing and feedback because of their use of high gain and, thus, needing their pickups potted.
I love unpotted humbuckers and I've never had a problem, but I'm not a high gain rock guy.
Would unpotted P90s have the same advantages? Don't know, but I do know that unpotted humbuckers are wonderful.Last edited by darkwaters; 01-26-2021 at 01:30 PM.
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There's more to this than "just" the guitar and the pickups: strings, even the pick unless you play fingerstyle. I'm actually not sure if there's a generally accepted definition for what's a "woody, hollow" sound. To me it means an acoustic/electric blend, implying so low electric volume that the acoustic, percussive qualities of the guitar get heard and felt. You may have to hit the strings harder to get the sensation. Roundwounds might help to get more color and timbre. And you might want to use both pickups if you have two. Archtops with floating pickups are simply brighter than an ES-175 for example. And trebles are part of a guitar's natural, acoustic sound. Finally, at the other end of the signal chain, you have your eventual preamp/effect (like Barnyard Jr), the amp and the speaker inside it. I have just tested a new speaker, the Jensen Blackbird 40 AlNiCo, in my TOOB cabs. It has tons of sparkling trebles, and I expected it to be a no-go for my ES-175. I was 180 degrees wrong!
Back to "woody" sound. I'm tempted to use a whisky analogy. Traditional jazz guitar sound is like a smoky, peaty single malt. There are lighter, less bakelite-tasting single malt varieties of course, and then there's a whole array of blended stuff from a host of countries. The tasting notes often refer to various fruits. I think a good woody sound has a clear bass end, some fruity sparkle across the board and not too much emphasis on midrange, to keep the "brown" away. Alas, some amps have a direct relationship between the overall volume and the mid-eq setting.
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Interesting points and analogies! Especially the one about the "smokey, peaty, single malt"! My Gretsch could NEVER sound like that, I understand... to me, that's the L5 with the CC pickup into the tweed Deluxe that recorded Midnight Blue.
But- yeah... you guys have the right idea of what I'm talking about!
So this guitar has Filtertrons, which are low-wind humbuckers. I think they ARE potted, but Filtertrons are weak pickups compared to PAFs... due to their extremely low wind and narrower magnetic field, they are very mid-scooped... which IMO is part of the problem I'm having, as I hear "hollow and woody" as having alot of mids. I think the Filtertrons are the weak link in my particular chain. 6120 with Filtertrons > Princeton Reverb with a 12" speaker.
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That tone you describe is one of my favorites of all time.
Originally Posted by ruger9
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I like Dynasonics a lot. They do hum.
Filtertrons are also good pickups. They are quite different that Gibson humbuckers in their design. The stereotype of the Filtertron for thin country playing can be traced to Chet Atkins. That was his style. Saying the Filtertron doesn't do old school jazz well is like saying the Tele can't do jazz solo work. Here's some detail on the Filtertron.
Lastly, here's a pic of a guitar George Benson and Toty Viola custom ordered from Heritage specifically for jazz. Note the Filtertrons. This guitar is the first one with Filtertrons that opened my ears to how good they can sound.
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I second the unpotted pickup being the most important factor. Mid content is taste dependent (flattop acoustic guitars have less, archtops acoustics have more) but a good bass level is also an important component of woodiness in my opinion.
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I know all about Filtertrons, I have been a Gretsch person for years. I've tried many variations of the design as well. I also like Dynasonics, and am considering giving them a try in my Gretsch... I had them in another guitar, so I know how good they sound, and they are not as mid-scooped as Filtertrons are... they are closer to low-wind P90s, imo. Or, perhaps, like P90s if P90s had pole magnets instead of a bar magnet. Originally Posted by Marty Grass
I like Dynasonics a lot. They do hum.
Filtertrons are also good pickups. They are quite different that Gibson humbuckers in their design. The stereotype of the Filtertron for thin country playing can be traced to Chet Atkins. That was his style. Saying the Filtertron doesn't do old school jazz well is like saying the Tele can't do jazz solo work. Here's some detail on the Filtertron.
Lastly, here's a pic of a guitar George Benson and Toty Viola custom ordered from Heritage specifically for jazz. Note the Filtertrons. This guitar is the first one with Filtertrons that opened my ears to how good they can sound.
Honestly, I think I would just put TV Jones T-90s in this guitar and be done with it, but I really don't like the way they look. I would want to do dogear P90s, which would require risers to get the pickups to their proper height, as well as routing out the Filtertrons holes a little, and drilling new screw holes... just not sure I want to go that far.
Tavo from Nocturne Brain did it.... and it's pretty sweet looking....
lastly.. how in the world can you tell those are Filtertrons on Benson's guitar??? My eyesight may be starting to go, but in that pic, they are just a silver blur to me... could easily be PAFs...
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The Filtertrons are great pickups and as their brothers from Gibson will sound different in different guitars. The specific construction of the famous Gretches of the 50's and early 60's is quite different from the Gibson models of the day so there .... Originally Posted by Marty Grass
I like Dynasonics a lot. They do hum.
Filtertrons are also good pickups. They are quite different that Gibson humbuckers in their design. The stereotype of the Filtertron for thin country playing can be traced to Chet Atkins. That was his style. Saying the Filtertron doesn't do old school jazz well is like saying the Tele can't do jazz solo work. Here's some detail on the Filtertron.
Lastly, here's a pic of a guitar George Benson and Toty Viola custom ordered from Heritage specifically for jazz. Note the Filtertrons. This guitar is the first one with Filtertrons that opened my ears to how good they can sound.
BTW, is that Ralphe Armstrong on bass in that pic ? What a monster player.... saw him with McLaughlin and Michel Camillo, WOW !
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To me a wooden bridge made a big difference in my cheap Ibanez Artcore AG75. Not a big investment and effort but maybe more impact than changing pickups?
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lastly.. how in the world can you tell those are Filtertrons on Benson's guitar??? My eyesight may be starting to go, but in that pic, they are just a silver blur to me... could easily be PAFs...[/QUOTE]
I own the guitar.
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I actually did this experiment several years ago, on an Epi Broadway. I had a wood bridge (the actual bridge, not the base) made out of rosewood. While there definitely WAS a difference in the wood bridge vs metal (both on wood archtop bridge bases), I didn't feel like it was that much of a difference. Plugged in, the differences were far less of course.... but yes, putting an all-wood bridge on a Gretsch 6120 would probably help make it sound "woodier", acoustically. Originally Posted by guavajelly
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And it looks like Stefan Kukurugya on keyboards.
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I think that the archtop guitar with the floater does not sound wood-y at all. I think it sounds string-y. When I think of, for example, Johnny Smith's classic tone I hear strings rather than wood. When I think of a woody sound, it's a thunky guitar tone like Joe Pass on Intercontinental- that's a guitar with a body mounted pickup. To me a woody tone has that component that you were hear when you thump on the top of the guitar with your thumb. A floater is separated from that.
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filtertrons can get super nice hollow jazz tone...heck even hi-lo's can!...but they need the right amp...pickier than most pickups!...they like old fenders!..i never heard them better than with fender browns...they match beautifully...
also use a usa style stainless steel flatwound string...like labella or ghs...you don't have to go too heavy but a broken in flat will "hollow" the tone
and judicious use of the guitars volume and tone knobs...or in gretschs case... and tone switches
one of the greatest tones i've ever played/heard was a gretsch nashville with filtertrons into a brown deluxe!!! incredible!...from warm jazz tones to lou reed crunch
cheers
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That's very interesting, because I recently picked up a Supro Tremoverb (one of the new ones), and it IMMEDIATELY sounded better with the Supro than with my PRRI... the Supro is definitely more mid-forward, with a more rounded high end than the (blackface) Princeton. Originally Posted by neatomic
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At the risk of still not understanding what is meant by a woody, hollow sound, a quick summary of my cab testing today. The main finding: the guitar & PU do matter an awful lot. Played through a Raezer's Edge Luna 200R and two different TOOB cabs loaded with the new Jensen Blackbird 40 AlNiCo, my three 16" archtops may be summarized as follows:
- ES-175 1959 VOS: strong, balanced, pleasant, generic electric reference
- Benedetto Bravo: ditto, but slightly more midrangey/nasal (Benedetto A6 PU)
- Ibanez AFJ-91: Super 58 PU weaker but giving more timbre and acoustic feel; extremely pleasant
The EPI Casino Coupe was also just fine.
No wonder the Ibanez remains my go-to guitar should gigs resume during my lifetime. Jet blue, it's also a visual treat for the rather senior audiences of our old boys' band.Last edited by Gitterbug; 01-27-2021 at 03:53 PM.
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Strings, pick, saddle, pickup height, guitar vs amp volume.
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Most bases are already covered here but I'll add one other factor that I think makes a huge difference: technique. A lot of the players who have a very "acoustic" quality in their tone got their chops playing acoustic archtop. I'm thinking of Charlie Christian and Oscar Moore, as well as some contemporary players. They learned technique on guitars that required more physical power in the right hand than electrics require, and when they took up the electric guitar they brought a lot of that technique with them. If you're working on getting this sound, a good idea is to practice unplugged or on an acoustic archtop. Set up your guitar for acoustic playing and focus your technique to get a good, loud, strong sound with a lot of dynamics, and then plug in while trying to keep the same playing style. You will not need to turn your amp up as much because you are hitting harder. Think of it this way: if you set your amp high, and you have a light attack, you have a narrower dynamic range, which gets a very smooth / "electric" tone (think john stowell, ed bickert, bill frisell). In contrast, if you set your amp lower and play with a more varied attack and more force on some notes, your electric tone will have a wider dynamic range and it will sound more acoustic because you are playing with a more acoustic-oriented technique.
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Tonal vocabulary gets in the way. 'Woody' is such a subjective term. Don't have a better term. I think what many think of is something like a Gibson L5 into a Fender Twin.
As for making an ES175 sound more hollow, seems a pickup swap would make it sound a bit different. But not necessarily more hollow. Better EQ and a more acoustic amp might work. Dual source would work but is a relative PIA to implement.
It's a good question and I'm sure this has been solved short of using a mic.
Ruger - Do I recall you having a Roland Artist Cube? If so, what tone capsule are you running? It's not cheap, but the 'Sparkly' one seems to work well for getting more 'woody' out of the guitar for me.
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Under wound uncovered non potted pickups. And depending on the balance of tone pick a magnet type that suits you. I would use a humbucker style of pick up being they have less hum. If you really want the acoustic sound to come thru use a Piezo and mix it with the pickups.
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You could try using acoustic strings.
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WOODY:
In this video, the Godin is easily the most WOODY-sounding instrument, to my ears. Most of the others sound like a variation of an ES-175... meaning, a "standard PAF archtop"... the Godin has something different going on. And those pickups are also top-mounted... is just because they are P90s? Is because they are single coils instead of humbuckers? Is the wood/construction? Because it's the same guy, with the same technique, playing the same licks....
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I do, it's my classic rock cover band amp. I have the Ultimate Blues tone capsule in it, which is a Fender Super on the clean side and a Marshall Super Lead on the dirty side. It's perfect for that. It stays at the rehearsal space, I've never tired my Gretsch with it... but I suspect I would like it with NO tone capsule for jazzy archtop tones (it comes stock with no capsule, which means it's voiced like a Tweed Bassman as stock). Originally Posted by Spook410
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You know, I see alot of people on this JAZZ forum talk about hum. Since (I assume) most of us are playing mostly-clean tones when playing jazz, and likely not at loud volumes, where are you guys having such a problem with hum??? I'm a tele guy, and even when using gain (rock) the hum doesn't bother me... when I play the tele clean at home (which is ALOT), there is no hum. Hum really only starts getting annoying when you pile on either gain or volume... Do you guys have terrible/dirty power or something? Originally Posted by JaxJaxon
I get the idea of "bucking hum" is a great one- who wants noise? But personally, my favorite jazz tones usually come from single coil pickups: P90s or CCs. Altho I'll admit Johnny Smith's tone is also a fave, and he used a mini-HB alot, right?). For me, playing this jazzy style (I'll never be a true jazz player; Kenny Burrell-inspired is likely the best I will ever do, coming from a blues/rock background)... I never have a problem with hum....?
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For me, the answer has been P90s. With lower wind, unpotted humbuckers (such as Seth Lovers) a close second. Not that I'm entirely sure what "woody" means ... But going with the flow, have to say I prefer wooden bridges by far to tunomatics. With the exception there being certain aftermarket bar type bridges (Compton, TruArc), but I've so far heard these only on Gretsches.
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Yes, regarding a wood bridge... the Godin in the video above has a Graphtec bridge... is that supposed to be like bone? Like an acoustic bridge or nut? I know about Graphtec nuts on solidbody electrics, but didn't realize until now the Kingpin has a Graphtec bridge. Originally Posted by mad dog
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Godin 5th Avenue is very acoustic by design - a contemporary take on the ES-125, with an extremely light construction and very thin laminate top. This, and the use of cherry wood, sets it apart from the rest. Time will tell how aging affects the tone. The acoustic version strung with bronze strings has a very strong but not overly sophisticated voice. The plasticky, poorly fitting bridge was probably its most criticized feature around introduction - don't know if it's the same in later runs.
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There are basically two kinds of "hum": various kinds of noise, distortion, hisses, etc., from devices in the signal path that get amplified by effect or amp gain, and hum (at the AC line frequency or a multiple of that) from electro-magnetic devices that are in the environment (such as dimmers, motors, and transformers) that is detected by pickups. Originally Posted by ruger9
Humbuckers are designed to neutralize this second kind. If you use single coil pickups in environments poor wiring and/or stuff like light dimmers, HVAC equipment, appliances with big motors, electronics with poorly shielded power supplies etc., the buzz can be very loud and annoying.
If you haven't experienced this, lucky you. There are places I play where single coils are essentially unusable. IME, P90s are the worst. I nearly always use an Electro Harmonix Hum Debugger (a pedal that can neutralize this kind of hum) with my P90 guitar or my Strat.
John
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Well, it is like making a silk purse out of a sow's ear. Not that there's anything wrong with trying. Have you considered a mini-condenser microphone like a dpa 4099G or the Thomann cheapie replica t.bone Ovid? Or the Bartlett Audio Mic A or Mic B?
Choose a set of phosphor bronze for the ES-175. Use one of the above microphones, feed it through an acoustic guitar amp with a tweeter.
You could well try a lightly potted low wind humbucker into an acoustic guitar amp, too. That comes close but would sound more stringy than woody.
I have been waiting to try this: https://opentosourcesensors.com/prod...ression-pickup . I suspect it will come close to a condenser with a good EQ.
I just picked up a pre-Gibson Mesa Rosette One:Ten on Tuesday. Try a Rosette.
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Oh, I know what noise is, and I've experienced it. But I only have those problems at gigs or rehearsals. Never at home. IDK how many of us here gig jazz tunes regularly, but I'm guessing not many? (I'm talking before Covid of course). I'm guessing 95% of us sit at home and play 95% of the time? I would think that would mean "hum"/noise would not be an issue? Playing clean tones at low volumes? Originally Posted by John A.
And as for the 5% of the time, single coil pickups have been around forever, thousands of pros use them on gigs every night, so I guess they are choosing the (what they hear as) superior tone over the noise? I just keep thinking how many amazing tone I love were recorded using CCs and P90s, not to to mention telecasters, Strats.... I recently got an electric solidbody with humbuckers for the reasons being discussed, and our rehearsal space is very noisy... and it really just didn't matter. Sure, it cancels out thew 60Hz hum, but the rest of the various noises still get through anyway...
TO ME, after this "experiment" of my own, the choice between humbucker or single coil is almost exclusively one of TONE, not function.
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HAHA yes. That's exactly why I started this thread... believe me, I've been down that road many times, trying to make something into something it's not. And sometimes I've had reasonable success with it.... but after all these years, I don't do that anymore. I just accept a piece of gear for what it is, and like it or don't. It's just easier that way! I like keeping things simple as I get older (I'm 51). Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
Now, I'll still swap a bridge, or pickups.... heck I even put a tone switch (Gretsch) into my Hot Rod (which did not come with one, and is actually antithetical to it's design of being "stripped down" LOL)... but yeah I'm done going to great lengths to "make something into something I want".
In the case of this OP, my Gretsch 6120 with Filtertron pickups, it is a fully-hollow guitar, all maple, with trestle braces... so it's more hollow than a 335, but a little less hollow than, say, an L5. But I think the pickups more than anything are holding it back from the woody, jazzy tones I'm looking for.... they are very mid-scooped pickups, and I think MIDS is something that helps with a "woody" sound... also, putting an all-wood bridge on it would likely help, but, I'm not interested in that, that would then lose what this guitar actually is.
I was really just wondering if there were any "tricks", like "turn the amp UP and the guitar DOWN", or something like that... but a Gretsch sounds like a Gretsch, no matter what... for better or worse... it'll never sound like an L5 or ES-125.... it's NOT just about EQ...
But hey, that's ok. With the right amp, and the tone switch on the guitar, I can get my 6120 into ES-295 territory... which is really what the Gretsch is anyway, it's more of a 295 thing... made to play electrically, the acoustic sound was not paramount in it's design... I'm sure if I put P90s on this guitar, I could get it to sound VERY much like a 295... which still isn't an L5 with a CC, or an old ES-125/150, of course. And, that's not why I bought this guitar anyway- I bought it for rockabilly sounds, and at that, it excels. I just don't really play that stuff too much, and I don't want to sell the guitar because it's been with me a long time, I love the wood & wire itself.... I've put alot of time in on it over the years.... so I guess, when I decide I've had enough of not being able to get the woody tone I'm after, I'll have to buy another guitar LOL.... I'll have to sell a couple first, they have been piling up as of late....
So: summary: I could try single coils to see if that helps (TV Jones T-Armonds, or maybe some P90s). Both would get me some more mids, and a "purer" tone (that's just how I personally hear single coils vs humbuckers... I hear more of the "string" with single coils). Beyond that, I'll just enjoy it for what it is, and look into getting something else for the woody tone thing... maybe a Godin or a Loar... I keep coming back to the ES-125 esthetic...
Hmm... come to think of it... I wonder if Pete Biltoft at Vintage Vibe would be able to make me a set of his CC pickups, that fit into Filtertron-sized holes? Hmm...
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well well... lookee what I found...
Pete Biltoft Vintage Vibe:
P90s in Filtertron cover, and CC pickups for Gretsch guitars...
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That voyage through the ocean of pickups is a long one, often involving circling back several times and hearing ones from years ago in a completely different way, falling in and out of love.
Most of the greats switched from single coil to humbucker. Many didn't. I wonder if Charlie Christian would have.
Here's a voice from the 1960s who played some of the most pleasant and interesting jazz music with a flattop and a single coil. He was a man who died way too soon.
Here is a tune that sounded quite good on relatively unpopular pickups. The Beatles did use flatwounds.
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Yes, the "pickup quest" is a long one, lol, especially if you have more than a couple guitars!!
Jazz on a flattop? Why not. Bickert played a tele. Django played a flattop. Les Paul played a... Les Paul lol.
It's an interesting journey, because it starts out wanting to emulate favorite tones you've loved over the years, but somewhere along the way, you hopefully find a tone that resonated with YOU and how you play. Regardless of what the pickup, guitar, or amp is. Good music is good music. The gear quest has been fun all these years, I think I'm just getting tired of searching, and just want to play instead lol.
I sometimes wonder if, when I'm a "senior", I'll be happy sitting here with just my old tele and my Princeton.
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I have no idea what percent of participants here play outside their homes. All I can do is speak from my own experience and observation. I have 60hz hum with clean sounds at home and some of the other places I was playing regularly (jam sessions, occasional gigs, get-togethers with other players, rehearsals at rehearsal studios) . It's a frequent topic of conversation among players I know, and based on how often the topic comes up here, it's common here too. I have both single coil and humbucker guitars and I like both sounds, so hum is not the exclusive reason I gravitate toward the humbucker ones, but it's a factor, Originally Posted by ruger9
John
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I mean, I always was envious of this guy's tone:
His sound was pretty good on this Gibson model:
All in good fun, right?
Love that clear sound... Wish I could find dynasonics that worked for my guitar. Humbuckers sound great, but dynos sparkle and bring out everything that makes a clean electric guitar tone sound so special
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dyna's are great..highly overlooked by jazzers...great for clean hi-fi jazz tone with tight low end and crisp highs...
i, what kind of pickup mount does your guitar need..still using zoller?
cheers
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I can say you will be happy with that, or most anything else for that matter. Hearing loss has it's up side :-) EG: The bum ear is the one I point up when I'm trying to get some sleep next to my snoring woman. Originally Posted by ruger9
Another decade or 2 and I'll be happy just to be alive and hearing!
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gibson j160-e was an electric guitar..it was originally offered with a florentine cutaway ...it had a laminate top to reduce feedback...and the single coil pup with toploaded control knobs...flats work well on 'em...as beatle purists know! Originally Posted by Marty Grass
szabo used a martin with a dearmond soundhole pup
cheers
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Still the Zoller. The MXR boost pedal that a friend from LA gifted me really cleared up the mud and gave me better balance. Originally Posted by neatomic
The last mod I will do to my guitar is to get a pickguard that actually fits the dang thing properly.
But that Dyna really has an ethereal sound. Love Billy Bean's tone.
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i love the zoller pups...both floater and (in now harder to find) in-body mounts...they were made to be very broad & flat frequencied....the idea being to dial in tone with guitar & amp knobs....having the right cap on the tone control pot works important wonders...the pickup is capable of doing almost anything...just gotta dial it in
why external eq pedal works...but...
i was on mailing list of shadow/zoller pups wayback...they were always interesting!!....zoller got it from the great pickup scientist- bill lawrence
great pups...
cheers
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What is your guitar? A floater? If so, I've never seen a Dyna floater... but there are plenty of great single coil floaters out there... Originally Posted by PickingMyEars
Love that clear sound... Wish I could find dynasonics that worked for my guitar. Humbuckers sound great, but dynos sparkle and bring out everything that makes a clean electric guitar tone sound so special
This one from a recent thread: Vintage Vibe CC... this one is pickguard mounted, but Pete Biltoft could easily make it neck mounted as well...
New CC for my EXL-1
And if your guitar has standard-sized mounted humbuckers, well head over to TV Jones... he has GREAT Dynamics called T-Armonds, and he has a Gibson-style mount (for pickup rings) for them.
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