The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Posts 1 to 25 of 38
  1. #1
    Good day JGF!

    Let me preface this by typing that I've never setup a guitar with a floating bridge, so I'm a little apprehensive even before I start.

    I use Thomastik 12s or 13s flats on my WesMo and in looking at the action, which was setup by a local tech, I really think I can go lower.

    What do you guys/gals have for your's and are there any pitfalls I need to be aware of, as it generally relates to a setup with a floating bridge?


    Thanks and

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

    User Info Menu

    Just slowly lower it until it plays comfortably w out string buzz and you should be ok, though it may require some adjustment once it settles in.

  4. #3

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight Blues
    Good day JGF!

    Let me preface this by typing that I've never setup a guitar with a floating bridge, so I'm a little apprehensive even before I start.

    I use Thomastik 12s or 13s flats on my WesMo and in looking at the action, which was setup by a local tech, I really think I can go lower.

    What do you guys/gals have for your's and are there any pitfalls I need to be aware of, as it generally relates to a setup with a floating bridge?


    Thanks and
    There are no pitfalls specific to lowering floating bridges*. How low you can go depends on the same factors as with other types of adjustable bridge (nut condition, fret condition, neck condition, string gauge, truss rod relief, how hard you pick, how much fret buzz you can tolerate). Those factors are all interactive, so it's hard to give an exact number, but basically, keep lowering it until it feels bad and/or buzzes too much. You won't break anything. Never hurts to measure and take notes of how it feels at different heights.

    *Too high can be a problem because the leverage can cause the bridge to tilt forward and/or not sit right on the posts if there's only a small amount if post in the saddle. Too low can be a problem if the posts stick out above the saddle and poke your hand. But within those extremes, it's generally all good.

    John
    Last edited by John A.; 01-26-2021 at 09:06 AM.

  5. #4

    User Info Menu

    If you go too low, just turn the wheels in the other direction and raise the bridge up a bit. When you get down near the limit of what is acceptable action and what buzzes too much, a very small adjustment, just a few degrees, can make a difference. A half or even a quarter turn of the wheel may be enough. The amount of relief in the neck also affects the action, so I prefer adjusting the trussrod first, to give an almost straight neck. Others prefer more relief, and that's a matter of taste, and of how hard your touch is. More relief requires slightly higher action to prevent buzzing on the highest frets. But it's subtle, not a huge difference. The only way to get the perfect action for you is to experiment, and keep making adjustments until you're satisfied. No matter how much you turn the adjustment wheels, you can always reverse it, and keep going until you find the happy medium.

  6. #5
    Thanks very much for the replies gang, I truly appreciate it!

    I guess it's no different than setting-up one of my Les Pauls then?

    Any suggestions on maintaining the location of the floating bridge?


    Thanks again and

  7. #6

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight Blues
    Thanks very much for the replies gang, I truly appreciate it!

    I guess it's no different than setting-up one of my Les Pauls then?

    Any suggestions on maintaining the location of the floating bridge?


    Thanks again and
    Yup, same as adjusting a les Paul.

    The bridge shouldn't move under string tension unless it takes an impact. Change strings one at a time so the bridge doesn't move. If for some reason you do need to loosen or take off all the strings at once, mark the position beforehand with masking tape. In the event you forget to do that, odds are the bridge left a mark in the finish and you can see the position. Worst case, measure (double the distance from the nut to the 12th fret) to get it in the ballpark, then move it slightly as needed to intonate.

    John

  8. #7

    User Info Menu

    I agree with all the posts above +1 on all of them!
    I will say that on hollowbodies, I can go lower than is desirable for me. That is, once I get below a certain point, I feel a drop off in what I can feel from the string; how "alive" it feels to me. But this is an issue of action, strings, playing style, lots of things. Just know that if your frets are level, you can go way low, especially with a relatively heavier string. It's a matter of personal response at that point.

  9. #8

    User Info Menu

    Always check the neck relief first. Straightening the neck will lower the action. I sometimes find that after adjusting the neck, I don’t have to touch the bridge.

  10. #9

    User Info Menu

    Maybe it's because I'm a lefty, but I've never had anyone deliver me an even acceptable set up.

  11. #10

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by John A.;[URL="tel:1094097"
    1094097[/URL]]Yup, same as adjusting a les Paul.

    The bridge shouldn't move under string tension unless it takes an impact. Change strings one at a time so the bridge doesn't move. If for some reason you do need to loosen or take off all the strings at once, mark the position beforehand with masking tape. In the event you forget to do that, odds are the bridge left a mark in the finish and you can see the position. Worst case, measure (double the distance from the nut to the 12th fret) to get it in the ballpark, then move it slightly as needed to intonate.

    John
    I just mark the bridge posn with a sharpie
    and / or temporarily tape the bridge to the top with low tack decorators tape

    Its only on there for an hour or so

  12. #11

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by pingu
    I just mark the bridge posn with a sharpie
    and / or temporarily tape the bridge to the top with low tack decorators tape

    Its only on there for an hour or so
    Yes, I should have also mentioned taping it down. I do sometimes, too. Is sharpie OK on all kinds of finishes?

    John

  13. #12

    User Info Menu

    I use low-tack painter's tape to mark the bridge. I don't tape it down, I just put a strip of tape alongside the base, on each side, and the bridge goes back into the same space. I sometimes remove the bridge for adjustments, or to use a different bridge. A strip of tape marks the location well enough for me. It's only there for an hour or so at the longest, usually for minutes, so I don't worry about it. Keep in mind that after changing strings and/or action the bridge may need some adjustment for intonation, so just move it as necessary. There are how-to videos available for setting the intonation, but I always recommend FRETS.COM

  14. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by John A.
    Yup, same as adjusting a les Paul.

    The bridge shouldn't move under string tension unless it takes an impact. Change strings one at a time so the bridge doesn't move. If for some reason you do need to loosen or take off all the strings at once, mark the position beforehand with masking tape. In the event you forget to do that, odds are the bridge left a mark in the finish and you can see the position. Worst case, measure (double the distance from the nut to the 12th fret) to get it in the ballpark, then move it slightly as needed to intonate.

    John
    Good point John, I didn't even think that the bridge might have left an outline.

    I would suspect that I'd have to adjust the relief too. I've never done that with the strings still on. Is that even possible? Also, I'd more than likely be oiling the fretboard as well.


    Thanks and

  15. #14
    Thanks for all the responses gan, I really appreciate it!



  16. #15

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight Blues

    I would suspect that I'd have to adjust the relief too. I've never done that with the strings still on. Is that even possible? Also, I'd more than likely be oiling the fretboard as well.


    Thanks and
    You mean you'd have to adjust the relief if you lower the action? Maybe, but IME usually not for small adjustments. Yes, it's definitely possible to adjust the truss rod with the strings on. Advice varies as to whether you should do so under full string tension (I find it easier to loosen the strings a bit). Slightly loosening the strings will probably leave enough string tension to keep the bridge in place, but just in case you can tape it down with masking tape (per Sgosnell, low tack painters tape).

    John

  17. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by John A.
    You mean you'd have to adjust the relief if you lower the action? Maybe, but IME usually not for small adjustments. Yes, it's definitely possible to adjust the truss rod with the strings on. Advice varies as to whether you should do so under full string tension (I find it easier to loosen the strings a bit). Slightly loosening the strings will probably leave enough string tension to keep the bridge in place, but just in case you can tape it down with masking tape (per Sgosnell, low tack painters tape).

    John
    Thanks John!

    Well, not necessarily. It's been a while since it's been adjusted and I just checked and there's definitely some back-bow. To be honest, I haven't played it much (I know, sacrilege right!), so the strings are pretty new and I would hate to just toss them at about $14.00 a pack. I've never adjusted a truss rod without taking the strings off, maybe I'll try it with them on?

    As I typed, there's definitely some back-bow and the action at the 12th fret (bass side) is between 5/64 and 6/64 (actually closer to the latter), which is nowhere near the action of my other guitars, which are around 1.25/64 lower.




    Thanks again and

  18. #17

    User Info Menu

    Given the purpose of a truss rod is to counteract the string tension, is there any reason to adjust a truss rod with the strings off the guitar? I see that mentioned here but I’ve never done that myself nor have I seen a tech do that, but is it something worthwhile? Seems that without the strings you’re not setting the rod to counteract anything?

    thanks!

    From Taylorguitars.com
    The truss rod’s primary function in both electric and acoustic steel-string guitars is to stabilize the neck against the tension of the strings, which exert a great deal of force on the guitar—for light gauge acoustic strings, up to 180 pounds, pulling up on the neck and bridge. The truss rod is there to balance out that tension so that the neck doesn’t bend from the pressure.

  19. #18

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by jazzkritter
    Given the purpose of a truss rod is to counteract the string tension, is there any reason to adjust a truss rod with the strings off the guitar? I see that mentioned here but I’ve never done that myself nor have I seen a tech do that, but is it something worthwhile? Seems that without the strings you’re not setting the rod to counteract anything?

    thanks!

    From Taylorguitars.com
    The truss rod’s primary function in both electric and acoustic steel-string guitars is to stabilize the neck against the tension of the strings, which exert a great deal of force on the guitar—for light gauge acoustic strings, up to 180 pounds, pulling up on the neck and bridge. The truss rod is there to balance out that tension so that the neck doesn’t bend from the pressure.

    You can make a case for loosening the strings before adjustment if there are issues with the truss rod being difficult to adjust, so you don't have the pull of the strings, but without the strings on then I don't see it ...

    Unless it was perfectly adjusted before the string chance, you're going a size up or down in gauge and know from experience how much to adjust to counteract the change in tension?

  20. #19

    User Info Menu

    That’s why I asked, I can’t see how adjustments without any tension on the neck help.

  21. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by jazzkritter
    Given the purpose of a truss rod is to counteract the string tension, is there any reason to adjust a truss rod with the strings off the guitar? I see that mentioned here but I’ve never done that myself nor have I seen a tech do that, but is it something worthwhile? Seems that without the strings you’re not setting the rod to counteract anything?

    thanks!

    From Taylorguitars.com
    The truss rod’s primary function in both electric and acoustic steel-string guitars is to stabilize the neck against the tension of the strings, which exert a great deal of force on the guitar—for light gauge acoustic strings, up to 180 pounds, pulling up on the neck and bridge. The truss rod is there to balance out that tension so that the neck doesn’t bend from the pressure.
    Quote Originally Posted by jazzkritter
    That’s why I asked, I can’t see how adjustments without any tension on the neck help.
    That certainly makes sense, although I've never had a problem with taking them off?


    Thanks jazzkritter and

  22. #21

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight Blues
    Thanks John!

    Well, not necessarily. It's been a while since it's been adjusted and I just checked and there's definitely some back-bow. To be honest, I haven't played it much (I know, sacrilege right!), so the strings are pretty new and I would hate to just toss them at about $14.00 a pack. I've never adjusted a truss rod without taking the strings off, maybe I'll try it with them on?

    As I typed, there's definitely some back-bow and the action at the 12th fret (bass side) is between 5/64 and 6/64 (actually closer to the latter), which is nowhere near the action of my other guitars, which are around 1.25/64 lower.




    Thanks again and
    From what I've read, 6/64 is at the high end of normal, but still within the range of good/playable. It's interesting that such tiny differences make a difference, but they do. I actually have trouble seeing such fine gradations on a ruler, and my guitars are all a little different from each other, so I set-up action more by feel than measurement. I recently had to set up a guitar from scratch (new acquisition shipped with the floating bridge removed), which I did by screwing it all the way down and then raising it until it stopped buzzing. That turned out to be (squint) ~5/64 on the bass side and ~4/64 on the treble (I think). IMO, if it feels good, it is good irrespective of the measurement. If 6/64's feels bad to you, lower it, but not just because it doesn't match another guitar.

    I always do truss rod adjustments with strings on. I try to do it tuned to pitch unless it's too hard to turn the wrench, in which case I detune a bit. The whole point of a truss rod is to compensate for string tension, and with trial and error involved it's an awful lot of trouble to take the strings off during the process. The only exception I can see to this would be a Fender-style adjustment at the butt of the neck that requires you to take the neck off the guitar to access the nut. Regarding the backbow you see, I can't tell from the picture. I generally need to capo at the 1st fret and press down at the fret that joins the body to be sure of what I'm seeing (and one of these days I've got to get some feeler gauges ...)

    John

  23. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by John A.
    From what I've read, 6/64 is at the high end of normal, but still within the range of good/playable. It's interesting that such tiny differences make a difference, but they do. I actually have trouble seeing such fine gradations on a ruler, and my guitars are all a little different from each other, so I set-up action more by feel than measurement. I recently had to set up a guitar from scratch (new acquisition shipped with the floating bridge removed), which I did by screwing it all the way down and then raising it until it stopped buzzing. That turned out to be (squint) ~5/64 on the bass side and ~4/64 on the treble (I think). IMO, if it feels good, it is good irrespective of the measurement. If 6/64's feels bad to you, lower it, but not just because it doesn't match another guitar.

    I always do truss rod adjustments with strings on. I try to do it tuned to pitch unless it's too hard to turn the wrench, in which case I detune a bit. The whole point of a truss rod is to compensate for string tension, and with trial and error involved it's an awful lot of trouble to take the strings off during the process. The only exception I can see to this would be a Fender-style adjustment at the butt of the neck that requires you to take the neck off the guitar to access the nut. Regarding the backbow you see, I can't tell from the picture. I generally need to capo at the 1st fret and press down at the fret that joins the body to be sure of what I'm seeing (and one of these days I've got to get some feeler gauges ...)

    John
    That's how I normally check relief. I had the capo on, but wasn't adept enough to take a picture with my finger where the neck joins the body. LOL!

    I'm sure you've seen this, as well as everyone else, but these are Gibson's specs for electric guitars (I guess there isn't a distinction between solid/hollow bodies?):

    Action:
    12th fret treble=3/64”
    12th fret bass=5/64”
    1st fret treble= 1/64”
    1st fret bass= 2/64”

    Pickup height: (measured by pressing down last fret)
    Rhythm=3/32”
    Bridge= 1/16”

    Bridge height is based on the 12th fret action.


    Thanks John and

  24. #23

    User Info Menu

    IMO that action is too high for at least me. 1st the truss rod adjustment. Every L5 I have owned could handle very minimal to zero relief. IMO the straighter the neck the better.
    Hold down the low E string at the 1st and 14th fret then tap the E string on the 7th fret. Should be very minimal bounce. After the neck is straight adjust the string height to your preference.
    Always do your own setup. Everyone has there own neck spec that feels right to them.
    Do it by feel not with a ruler IMO. A ruler will ballpark you though but just a guideline.

  25. #24

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight Blues
    That's how I normally check relief. I had the capo on, but wasn't adept enough to take a picture with my finger where the neck joins the body. LOL!
    Losing the prehensile tail is the biggest mistake we ever made in our evolution from monkeys. So many things would have been much easier if we had kept that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight BLues
    I'm sure you've seen this, as well as everyone else, but these are Gibson's specs for electric guitars (I guess there isn't a distinction between solid/hollow bodies?):

    Action:
    12th fret treble=3/64”
    12th fret bass=5/64”
    1st fret treble= 1/64”
    1st fret bass= 2/64”

    Pickup height: (measured by pressing down last fret)
    Rhythm=3/32”
    Bridge= 1/16”

    Bridge height is based on the 12th fret action.
    Yes, I've seen that. Those are really just starting points, though, and it's valid to set up a guitar a little higher or lower if that's what feels and/or sounds better. Everybody picks a little differently, and everybody's hands are a little differently sized/shaped. That said, I find it interesting that there's such a small range of valid measurements given those variables, but there you go. It turns out the folks who make guitars know something about what sizes they should be.

    Cheers back at ya.
    Last edited by John A.; 01-27-2021 at 07:38 PM.

  26. #25

    User Info Menu

    Some people think it's essential to adjust the trussrod with the string tension removed. I don't believe that it is, unless there is serious concern about a rusted rod and nut, which could be broken by too much torque. For a normal situation, adjustment with the strings at normal tuning tension should not be an issue. I always adjust at tension, but I don't often turn the nut very much, and I'm careful about how much torque I use. Some judgement is necessary, as with all things. If there is backbow, you will be loosening the nut, so loosening the strings is even less necessary than when tightening it. Once the adjustment is made, retuning is always necessary, so if you want to loosen the strings somewhat before the adjustment, it's no big deal, but it may require more adjustments to get it just right. At tension, it's much easier to see when the neck is straight by using the strings as a straight-edge, fretted at the first and body-join frets.

    The correct action height is purely taste. I generally try for ~1mm for the treble e string at the 12th fret, measured between the bottom of the string and the top of the fret. The bass E can be a little higher, maybe 2mm, but I don't like much higher. But this is for electrics, and I play with a comparatively light touch, I think. For an acoustic chunking rhythm, the action needs to be a little higher, and the answer to how high is the same as the answer to how long is a piece of string. As high as you want it to be. A little more relief is also probably desirable, to allow for more string vibration, and the fact that you probably won't be playing chords much above the 12th fret, certainly not at the 20th. It's all a compromise, and only you know what compromises you're willing to make. Every guitar, and every guitarist, is different. That's why I don't trust anyone else to do my setups. The other person doing the setup may be completely competent, but he's not me.