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1922 - 2017. Talked to David A. at CME. He told me Gibson is no longer accepting any archtop guitar orders. There M2M program is only for solid and semi’s. You can get the plywood Chuck Berry 350T for $10K.
Stay healthy Mr.Campellone
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01-22-2021 12:45 PM
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Sad.
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Really!
Originally Posted by Marty Grass
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Heritage?
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Didn't know I'd live to see the day. Gosh!
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While 1922 is when the Loar archtop with F holes first appeared, all Gibson guitars made in 1902 (the beginning) were archtops (with an oval hole).
New Gibson archtops will be back one day, but they might not be available new for quite some time. I am 63 years old and have six Gibson archtops that meet my needs very well. I do not think that I am going to lose any sleep over the unavailablity of new Gibson archtops. YMMV
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Abandoning the legacy that made Gibson Gibson...
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sad but not unexpected...more signs of the times
even if they do decide to make them again one day, they'll be nobody left that builds them!
cheers
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No surprises here; Simple supply and demand. I doubt JC can make his ROI goals to his investors by making a handful of high labor cost niche guitars. (For an audience thats dying off, me included)))
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This will sound sacrilegious, but with so many incredible builders out there, I'm not too terribly upset by this. The Gibson archtops hold an important place in the pantheon of music over the past 100+ years, and many of the finest recordings and tones are built on L5's, Super 400's, etc...
But with people with Mark Campellone, Ryan Thorell, Daniel Slaman, Bryant Trenier, Cristian Mirabella, and Steve Andersen (to name just a few), I have little doubt that a new Gibson may not register for many up and coming players - IMO
There's not denying the wonder guitars and legacy, but with so many incredible builders out there (not to mention Heritage), I think we are in a wonderful time of what we can get.
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Yes we all know about 1902. Archtops will always mean F-holes to me. I don’t own any archtops with a round or oval hole. 1922 will always be the Archtop birth to at least me. Originally Posted by Stringswinger
.....well on 2nd thought the Howard Roberts model was very nice. I will always associate Archtops with Lloyd Loar as the father.
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Gibson is so stupid. Like the price of an l5 couldn’t pay for the price to build one for someone
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Yes. But still, it’s a shocker to read in print. Gibson, who’d been around for generations, didn’t make it 100 years. Originally Posted by jazzkritter
L5 prices are really going through the roof once this becomes common knowledge.
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Sweetwater is still advertising them: Gibson Custom L-5 CES Hollowbody Electric Guitar - Vintage Sunburst | Sweetwater
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There are 2 Gibson L-5ces At Dave's Guitars in Lacrosse Wisconsin at the moment. I'm not sure if they are new old stock? $10k range
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From what I've observed among players where I live (NYC, where you can't swing a cat without hitting a ... cat) over perhaps a decade, there does not appear to be any demand at all for new Gibson archtops. As in zero, as in people don't buy them at all. They do buy Gibson semis, solidbodies, and flat tops. And they do buy other brands of archtops new, and they do buy used Gibson archtops, but new Gibson archtops are just not on the radar. I don't see how the product line could survive, especially not at the prices Gibson had been asking. If they could profitably sell a new ES-175 for $2000 I bet they'd sell a lot of them, but I doubt that could happen.
Meanwhile archtops are a niche market, and there's enough used Gibson inventory out there to meet the demand. So while I get the lamentations on an emotional level, on a practical level as a potential guitar buyer I don't see that there's any impact, other than it no longer being possible to kvetch about how the old ones were better. If things change and Gibson re-enters the market, I look forward to being able to do that again
JohnLast edited by John A.; 01-22-2021 at 03:20 PM.
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Gibson definitely ran into a big problem with things like "recent vintage" 175's being thought of as better than current and being available cheaper than new.
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Very disappointing news.
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I have been trying to order a new S400. A big no from everyone. Originally Posted by Stringswinger
I called Gibson too.
The only M2M dealers are CME, TMZ, Wildwood, and Sweetwater per Gibson.
They did not mention MF as a M2M dealer which I find strange.
I also tried to order a black L5 with no luck.
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I am sad for sure but it certainly will up the price of Gibson Archtops in the future. Somewhere in my world someone needs to keep the tradition going. What I mean by that is that some company figure a way to build one and Gibson allow this..............I am just dreaming.
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This is really sad news
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Quietly dreaming of a Japanese maker doing just that - on strict condition that they use nitro. An 'Ibanez' L5 - a proper L5 - for a reasonable price would jump straight to the top of my list Originally Posted by deacon Mark
Always wondered why they didn't go down this route in recent years (I can guess, of course) - and I have a strange suspicion they went down this road once before (I am comparatively young so forgive my ignorance)
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Those at Dave’s are new so I stand corrected. They are trickling in standard L5 models still.
CME told me they are not taking in new orders at this time on any archtops but this may just be a backlog issue. This also happened during the fretboard siege.
I am getting conflicting info from dealers. Still no archtops in there 2021 lineup.
The woods are not as flamey on the new ones at Dave’s but still look very nice.
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Well right now my listed of wanted guitars become an L5c or Super 400c.
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Carved archtops may be off the table, but JC says they have a revamped Nashville ES line in the works. I don’t know what models are in the pipeline though.
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I think there's more to it than that. Building an L5 is a high skill project. It requires that they maintain a very exclusive group of builders and an appropriate shop. That's a hard thing to do in a world where mass manufacturing most guitars is not nearly as specialized a process. They're trying to find a path to profitability and maintaining a high end archtop shop doesn't appear to be their best option. Originally Posted by silvertonebetty
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The Customer base is simply not there anymore. Nobody is interested .. The Chicago Music Exchange sale was really the end. Congrats to those of you that picked up those 2-3k '59ri ES175s and what not
Part of it is that the interest in archtop driven music is fading ... But as I remember back in the day either you bought an expensive guitar or you bought utter shite.
These day you can get plenty of fine guitars in the $500 range that both sound and play great. Why bother with a Gibson is the question for many.
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At NAMM 2020, two Gibson reps independently told me it's just a matter of time when the 175 is in production again. Little did they know. But hey, there's never been as many, as knowledgeable and as skilled luthiers out there. Have you ever been able to buy a budget archtop or semi (e.g. Ibanez, Epiphone) for less real money than today? And, honestly, the quality is fine and they're all you need. The most worrisome aspect is that Gibson stands to lose what's left of their archtop-making skills and know-how. If they scrap their venerable, originally steam-powered, Green Monster, it's the end of carved-top Gibbies. The end is near, if not behind.
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Sad news for sure , but this decision was for obvious reasons. The last batch of Crimson Archtop inventory was hard to move at dealer retail pricing. No one wanted to pay full retail. It required blow out deals to liquidate , and even that took a while ......and people still felt those prices were too high.
Additionally , the opinion of most was that Memphis pricing was also getting too high - and it took CME blowout ( 50% off ) deals to clear out that inventory- which was plagued with quality problems.
So - based on the sentiment of the Gibson Archtop buyer seeking out brand new guitars , how many were willing to pay full retail and allow Gibson and the Dealerships to make the necessary profit to continue to stock those offerings ........I would say very few.
Up until this latest news , Gibson was still taking in new custom Archtop orders, but eventually realized the interest/ demand was not worth supporting.
The good news, there are many used Gibson Archtops for sale, some are in near mint condition like nos, some not so. But we face the same problem .......if you want them - you still have to pay more than you feel they are worth.
I posted a PSA about a 63’ Tal and a near new unplayed 2000 L5CTES from Larry Wexer the other day. Both of these are negotiable. Larry will also be positing 5 more 90’s Gibson Archtops at reasonable prices. These guitars are from a collector who bought great stuff and now liquidating part of his collection - so keep an eye out.
We are off the bottom of prices from a few years ago.....and those days are gone. If you see a nice Gibson you want - I suggest you adjust your price point mindset and buy it if you can .
Just my prospective of the current market.
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According to Music Radar, the new Nashville ES line includes 335, 339 and 345 models. Originally Posted by ThatRhythmMan
Carved archtops may be off the table, but JC says they have a revamped Nashville ES line in the works. I don’t know what models are in the pipeline though.
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2 to 5 days wait : Originally Posted by vinnyv1k
I have been trying to order a new S400. A big no from everyone.
I called Gibson too.
The only M2M dealers are CME, TMZ, Wildwood, and Sweetwater per Gibson.
They did not mention MF as a M2M dealer which I find strange.
I also tried to order a black L5 with no luck.
Gibson Super 400 CES NA – Thomann France
Gibson Super 400 CES VSB – Thomann France
5 to 7 weeks wait :
Gibson L-5 CES EB – Thomann France
If Thomann displays this kind of leadtime, the guitars should be available somewhere (I guess in Europe for the S400 and in the States for the L5)
That doesn't tell that Gibson will continue these models, unfortunately.
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Well if that’s the case, that would be a stinker. He has made it sound like more than just a revamp of basically what they have been currently doing. Originally Posted by cmajor9
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I guess all of our Gibson archtops will increase in value, assuming there is anyone interested in buying them. It's sad that this iconic brand will be remembered as part of our past and not the future.
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I'm not surprised, since Epiphone dropped all their archtops, after the crappy acoustic ones flopped.
GC went big on the D'Angelico replicas, then sold them off at deep discount.
For a long time I always thought a nice big archtop was the thing to have for jazz, and I still dig the ones I have- but lately I'm finding there are more practical alternatives.
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Wow did I get my 175 just in time!
You know, there's a sweet 175 listed in the For Sale section? Better jump on it 'for the price goes up 100%...
There are still some Epiphone archtops still under production, though not exactly jazz guitars--the Wildcat, Swingster, etc. And their Gibson-inspired 335's which might satisfy the itch for a lot of people.
I agree that Gibson sets a certain standard, and it's a shame they're not out there still cranking them out. But there are a lot of options out there these days.
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I can't imagine ever being in the market for a new gibson, but I'd love it, if now they'd consider selling their iconic tailpieces as a standalone unit. I might be thinking too short there, but that might actually be profitable.
I'd definetly be in the market for one of those to put on my eastman!
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You could see that one coming
heritage too
RIP two American icons
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the guy who many people considered to be the face of gretsch-joe carducci- their marketing specialist (& beyond!) recently retired...he had done his best to keep gretsch growing, but always with an eye towards the past
the recent trend there has been towards center block bodies with more aggressive pickups...i expect the trend to continue...with increased vigor
as for heritage...they are now owned by a large corp.- bandlabs...they share that classic parsons street space with the new line of harmony branded solid body guitars and amps
how many heritage archtops are actually comin out of there these days??...and for how long?
cheers
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This must be how the afforded to buy Mesa out
. But I guess every good thing needs to come to an end
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If you don't preserve your heritage, are you a 'Heritage Brand?'
"Gibson Brands, Inc."
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It does not surprise me. That they would take something they make very good and ruin it or stop making it altogether.
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Ugh, my plan was to get one in about a year. Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
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Well there are many used ones from all eras available. My favorites are the Crimson Shop under Phillip Whorton era Archtops.
Although at those prices I would just have so done like John Buscarino, Mark Campellone make me exactly what I want!
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Count me in the minority but I don't think the fine independent builders listed here will take the place of Gibson even though they're no longer producing archtops, at least among pro players, and it has nothing to do w quality of course. There's enough Gibsons out there already that if one really wants one they should be able to find it w out too much trouble. Over time it'll be harder for the 'gotta have a mint unplayed one' buyer to locate them if this really is the end of Gibson (and I'm not so sure about that, forever is a long time) and those guitars will command a premium among collectors.
There aren't many high profile artists playing boutique guitars today, nor does the typical pro order a new L5 for example, they're more likely to buy used which does little for the Gibson Guitar Co. New Gibsons were usually purchased by living room players and apparently there aren't enough of those consumers left to make it profitable enough for Gibson to currently offer archtops.
One thing for sure is that w all the options available today you'll likely see imported guitars being played more and more, it's already happening and since Gibson has halted production that trend will probably continue.Last edited by wintermoon; 01-23-2021 at 05:10 AM.
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I have a '99 Heritage H-575 and a 2010 Gibson ES-175. I play my 2016 Korean D'Angelico Deluxe SS more than either of those. It sounds absolutely fantastic and is far more comfortable to play. It's a new world now.
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I bought my first Gibson 63 years ago. Over the intervening years I’ve always owned some, sometimes many, often very many; many of those have been arch tops and many of those carved top. Have had multiple copies of S400, JS, Citation, LeGrand, Byrdland, Tal, BK, and most especially L-5 guitars. When I was bored one day in high school I started a list on how many L-5 variants I could have: L-5C in sb, blonde and red, same with a floater, same with one pickup, same with two pickups, then double that for Venetian and Florentine, then again for full-depth or thin. I then set out to get as many of those as I could, and that was before Gibson made small-body versions to add to my list.
I’ve owned many other brands—Guild, Gretsch, Ric, Ibanez, even Fender, and luthier-built guitars too. I liked them all, but always seem to come back to my Gibsons. When we retired 22 years ago I had to do some serious downsizing to go with the much smaller house we bought and when I was done all I had left were Gibsons. Two years later we moved again to a bigger house where I bought a number of newer Gibsons, although that time I sold a similar amount of others. Then I sold the rest of my larger guitars to wind up with the much smaller number I still have, but still, all Gibsons.
So as an unabashed Gibson fanboy I have to say the subject of this thread doesn’t distress me, doesn’t sadden me, doesn’t bother me a bit. I was an executive with an electronics manufacturing company for 20 years, and understand all too well the exigencies of making tough product decisions when you have shareholders or investors or just management with a good understanding of fiscal realities. Building product that you can’t sell profitably is hard to rationalize, especially in the face of declining demand and intense competition. From purely personal perspective, Gibson stopped building the guitars of which I’d be interested fifteen years ago—the idea that they won’t be building guitars that I have no interest in now doesn’t get me exercised a bit.
Danny W.
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that's sadder!! Originally Posted by Danny W.
cheers
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Guess I bought my ES165 just in time....
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What has happened to Heritage? Originally Posted by Crm114
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For us, anyway. But for most of the world, what made Gibson Gibson was the Les Paul. Originally Posted by TOMMO
Abandoning the legacy that made Gibson Gibson...
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