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  1. #176

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    So... around 2003 or so I inquired at my local dealer about a brand new Custom Shop Byrdland and was told that I could NOT get the narrow nut and short scale... which, for me was the whole point of that axe. It would cost around $7k payable in advance, would take a year or more to show up, and if there was anything about it I didn't like.... tough sh--.

    So much for M2M. Within a year, I found a closet-queen '74 Byrd that plays like a dream (narrow nut, short scale), is in fantastic cosmetic condition, and cost me about $3500.

    This thread got me to wondering whether prices are up because Gibson stopped making archtops (I did see the post saying they are still M2M) or down because of the pandemic economy so I did a quick search on Reverb and ran across this!

    1980 Gibson Byrdland owned by Hank Garland

    As tempting as it would be to "stand just where he stood," anyone who has seen Crazy just knows that poor guitar has soaked up a lot of grief... I couldn't do it, even if I did have the $.

    And this made me throw up in my mouth just a little bit...

    Gibson Byrdland 1980 Greenburst

    Someone had more dollars than sense... that is one butt-ugly axe.

    And I gotta wonder how this has survived this long... my original pickguard is 7 years newer and is just a pile of tortie-colored pebbles now. Probably was a mistake to take it off the guitar and store it in a plastic bag :-(

    Gibson Byrdland pickguard 1967


    But I digress... the short version is that prices seem about the same. Searched L5s too, with similar results. It'll be interesting to see where prices wind up in 2-5 years.

    SJ
    Last edited by starjasmine; 02-20-2021 at 03:39 AM.

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  3. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar
    Cool, thanks. "Standard models with lots of options" is closer to reality, but not as catchy sounding.

    I can understand not messing with the basic specs of the L5, Super 400 and maybe the Byrdland, unless it's something that they think of/stand behind, like a Lee Ritenour or double-cut L5, etc.

    But it would be cool if the Legrand could flex a little given that it has no such legacy, or um, heritage (groan). Of course it's a cross between a Johnny Smith and an L5 (and the Johnny Smith was a modified L5 anyway).


    Such as the following options:

    Scale length: 25.5, 25.25, or 25"
    Nut width: 1 11/16" or 1 12/16"
    Body: 17x3, or 16x3.
    Wood trim and binding options vs. gold and plastic

    I believe that they could capture more of the modern archtop market with that approach. Vive la Gibson!
    Yeah, I think that' about right as it relates standard model offerings.

    Might be worth a call to Customer Service just to inquire about what features/appointments would be available on a M2M?



  4. #178

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    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight Blues
    Yeah, I think that' about right as it relates standard model offerings.

    Might be worth a call to Customer Service just to inquire about what features/appointments would be available on a M2M?


    Thanks, but I am doooone collecting or investing or GASing or whatever it was that I was doing.

  5. #179

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    Quote Originally Posted by starjasmine
    So... around 2003 or so I inquired at my local dealer about a brand new Custom Shop Byrdland and was told that I could NOT get the narrow nut and short scale... which, for me was the whole point of that axe. It would cost around $7k payable in advance, would take a year or more to show up, and if there was anything about it I didn't like.... tough sh--.

    So much for M2M. Within a year, I found a closet-queen '74 Byrd that plays like a dream (narrow nut, short scale), is in fantastic cosmetic condition, and cost me about $3500.

    This thread got me to wondering whether prices are up because Gibson stopped making archtops (I did see the post saying they are still M2M) or down because of the pandemic economy so I did a quick search on Reverb and ran across this!

    1980 Gibson Byrdland owned by Hank Garland

    As tempting as it would be to "stand just where he stood," anyone who has seen Crazy just knows that poor guitar has soaked up a lot of grief... I couldn't do it, even if I did have the $.

    And this made me throw up in my mouth just a little bit...

    Gibson Byrdland 1980 Greenburst

    Someone had more dollars than sense... that is one butt-ugly axe.

    And I gotta wonder how this has survived this long... my original pickguard is 7 years newer and is just a pile of tortie-colored pebbles now. Probably was a mistake to take it off the guitar and store it in a plastic bag :-(

    Gibson Byrdland pickguard 1967


    But I digress... the short version is that prices seem about the same. Searched L5s too, with similar results. It'll be interesting to see where prices wind up in 2-5 years.

    SJ
    What short scale? The 23.5 or whatever it was? I don't believe that I've ever seen anything resembling a long scale on that guitar. Just curious, what scale length did they offer?

    Oh, and BTW - they did NOT stop making archtops, they slowed down. That was assumption and projection.

  6. #180

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    Quote Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar
    What short scale? The 23.5 or whatever it was? I don't believe that I've ever seen anything resembling a long scale on that guitar. Just curious, what scale length did they offer?
    I did not mean to imply a "long scale" just saying that some time ago GCS standardized on the scale and width that Les Pauls use - 24.5" IIRC. They just plain would not make a short-scale narrow nut Byrd neck for me. It would have been a Byrd body with a longer, wider neck.

    SJ

  7. #181

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    Quote Originally Posted by starjasmine
    I did not mean to imply a "long scale" just saying that some time ago GCS standardized on the scale and width that Les Pauls use - 24.5" IIRC. They just plain would not make a short-scale narrow nut Byrd neck for me.

    SJ
    OK. I was under the impression that Les Pauls had the same scale length as ES 335s etc, 24.75". If true them a 24.5" would be pretty darned short, even if not 23.75"

  8. #182

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    Quote Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar
    OK. I was under the impression that Les Pauls had the same scale length as ES 335s etc, 24.75". If true them a 24.5" would be pretty darned short, even if not 23.75"
    you were under the right impression, they're 24.75"

  9. #183
    I just inquired about a new ebony L5. The best price I could negotiate was $9K plus tax paid in full at time of the M2M order. No cancellation can be done and ETA would not be given till after Gibson has the order in their system.

    Not a warm and fuzzy way to buy a L5 these days.

  10. #184

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    That price is pretty good. Fair for a non-sunburst.

    If they take less than one year they're beating many of the boutique guys. When they were going strong around 2006 they took six months for my new order, so if they can hit 9-12 months under current circumstances that would be pretty good.

    Paying all up front is not so great but they have to deliver, and they're Gibson so very likely will. So, if one really wants the guitar...

  11. #185

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    Not a very nice way to do anything: "Give me the bucks first, and then I'll tell you when you might get it. And if you don't like the wait, too bad. I'm keeping your cash. Deal?"

    Maybe they really are pretty much done with making archtops. Who's gonna buy under those conditions?

    Will they at least give some sort of estimate based on current turn times?

  12. #186

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    Again the good news is there are a plethora of excellent archtop luthiers both in Europe,Japan,Canada, and USA as well. And many build in the Gibson Tradition of Carved tops and backs being heavier like Mark Campellone, Franz Elferink, etc

    They are not cheap but cheaper than an equivalent Gibson Model archtop.

  13. #187

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    Quote Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar
    What short scale? The 23.5 or whatever it was? I don't believe that I've ever seen anything resembling a long scale on that guitar. Just curious, what scale length did they offer? ...
    Quote Originally Posted by starjasmine
    ...They just plain would not make a short-scale narrow nut Byrd neck for me. It would have been a Byrd body with a longer, wider neck.
    Yeah, they've been known to make long-scale Byrdlands now and again.
    Attached Images Attached Images RIP Gibson Archtop guitar-l-5cestfl-front_01-jpg 

  14. #188

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hammertone
    Yeah, they've been known to make long-scale Byrdlands now and again.

    That's an L5, right?

  15. #189

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    Quote Originally Posted by ccroft
    Not a very nice way to do anything: "Give me the bucks first, and then I'll tell you when you might get it. And if you don't like the wait, too bad. I'm keeping your cash. Deal?"

    Maybe they really are pretty much done with making archtops. Who's gonna buy under those conditions?

    Will they at least give some sort of estimate based on current turn times?

    Not quite. No one said it's non-refundable, they said you can't cancel the order. A refund occurs after receipt of goods.

    They aren't done making archtops. And who's gonna buy? Plenty of people, that's who. That's why they're still making them "every day".

    FYI - Some "custom" luthiers (who also aren't really custom) have wait times counted in years, not months.

  16. #190

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    Quote Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar
    That's an L5, right?
    You are right! I guess the picture above shows a a thinline L-5CES with a Byrdland tailpiece, unlike the guitar pictured below, which has a long-scale neck as well. But, the one below one SAYS Byrdland on the TRC and the tailpiece (and, no doubt, on the label as well), so clearly it's ENTIRELY different from the thinline L-5CES:

    My god! If one takes an L-5CES, puts a different scale neck and a different tailpiece on it, and makes the rims shallower, and it becomes .... a Byrdland. Crazy! What will those wacky kids at Gibson think of next?

    Somewhere out there, there must be a Byrdland with 3 3/8" rims, or an L-5CES with a 23 1/2" scale neck.
    Attached Images Attached Images RIP Gibson Archtop guitar-byrdland-front_01-jpg 
    Last edited by Hammertone; 02-21-2021 at 11:17 AM.

  17. #191

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    As I get closer to retirement I had planned on getting some Gibson archtops to go with my other Gibsons. I want an L5CES, 400, Tal, Johnny Smith Byrdland. I don't know much about those off-brand guitars mentioned, nor do I have any interest in them.

    As I get older, the last thing I want to have to deal with is finding a used instrument, or wrestling one from a 'dealer.' So, yes, I'm very disappointed to hear Gibson is no longer selling archtops. I can't believe I'm the only one with theses sentiments.

  18. #192

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    Quote Originally Posted by icr
    As I get closer to retirement I had planned on getting some Gibson archtops to go with my other Gibsons. I want an L5CES, 400, Tal, Johnny Smith Byrdland. I don't know much about those off-brand guitars mentioned, nor do I have any interest in them.

    As I get older, the last thing I want to have to deal with is finding a used instrument, or wrestling one from a 'dealer.' So, yes, I'm very disappointed to hear Gibson is no longer selling archtops. I can't believe I'm the only one with theses sentiments.
    Youve stated exactly why others arent that disappointed. Many others do know about the "off brands" and takes little investigation to see whats out there and how good those products are. Many high quality choices according to many with a lot more credible resume than i.
    Also it seems from what ive read around here is that everyone has been buying mostly used forever, particularly when it comes to Gibson archtops. Sans the CME blowout, i hardly recall a post of someone doing a factory new Gibson NGD in the last 3+ years. Maybe before my time on hear and before 2015 there were lottsa NGD brand new Gibson archtops. Its seems each one of the criteria you mentiined not wanting to explore eliminates many people who are content and even happy to do so.

  19. #193
    My new 2018 Tal Farlow was the last one made.
    No longer available. Also only certain archtops are available.
    Also the dealer MUST be a M2M dealer. There are 5 M2M dealers.RIP Gibson Archtop guitar-1d9ae086-582d-4fd1-a748-06449d898005-jpeg

  20. #194

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    Quote Originally Posted by icr
    As I get closer to retirement I had planned on getting some Gibson archtops to go with my other Gibsons. I want an L5CES, 400, Tal, Johnny Smith Byrdland. I don't know much about those off-brand guitars mentioned, nor do I have any interest in them.

    As I get older, the last thing I want to have to deal with is finding a used instrument, or wrestling one from a 'dealer.' So, yes, I'm very disappointed to hear Gibson is no longer selling archtops. I can't believe I'm the only one with theses sentiments.
    They ARE selling them.

  21. #195

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    To be clear, Gibson is still making archtops. They may not be making as many, they may not be hanging on the shelf in the Patinum Room at Guitar Center, and they may not be making all the laminate models, lower selling models, and models discontinued years ago (like a Johnny Smith, for heaven's sake).

    But they are making their classic carved tops like the L5 and Super 400. I'm not sure if they're making the Legrand but my guess would be that they are because the design is more current/relevant than the older, fatter guitars with set-in pickups (i.e. the L5 and Super 400). It's a beautiful cross between a Johnny Smith and an L5.

    The only "issue" I see is that the wood figuring is not as spectacular as it was prior to the bankruptcy. I don't know why that is, but will venture a guess that it has to do with cutting expenses to the bone and thereby using volume discounts on tonewoods. And if you aren't using lots of highly figured tonewoods you're not going to buy and inventory that stuff for a rainy day. The alternative would be to buy the highly figured woods in smaller quantities, pay more, and charge more for the guitar, which would alienate the Gibson buyer. But that's all speculation.

  22. #196
    I can appreciate the "cash-up-front" requirement. Can you imagine building a guitar, only to get stiffed in the end? No doubt other builders have similar horror stories.

    I would imagine that it takes them longer to build now since they don't have dedicated staff focusing purely on building archtops? Undoubtedly Gibson employs the "Do More With Less" philosophy, which means that those builders are off building other models for the Custom Shop like Les Pauls (not that there's anything wrong with that ).

  23. #197

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hammertone

    My god! If one takes an L-5CES, puts a different scale neck and a different tailpiece on it, and makes the rims shallower, and it becomes .... a Byrdland. Crazy! What will those wacky kids at Gibson think of next?
    Historically speaking, "those wacky kids at Gibson" have thought of naming a lot of variants with the tag "L5" on them, because it sold/sells.

    L5, L5CES, Wes Montgomery, George Gobel, L5S, L-5C, L5 Signature, Lee Ritenour L5 Signature, others???

    If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

  24. #198

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    Don you have a lot more faith in Gibson than many of us. If Gibson thought Archtops were a viable market we would see them on the website. There would be clear instructions, not disappearing M2M pages. And you can bet, as they’ve done in the past, the M2M dealers will have to fork up a load of LP and SG orders for the honor of accepting an archtop order.
    Do you have special insights into the mind of Gibson or is the speculation on your part?

  25. #199

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    Quote Originally Posted by vinnyv1k
    My new 2018 Tal Farlow was the last one made.
    No longer available. Also only certain archtops are available.
    Also the dealer MUST be a M2M dealer. There are 5 M2M dealers.RIP Gibson Archtop guitar-1d9ae086-582d-4fd1-a748-06449d898005-jpeg
    Y'know, Vinny, I've looked at this particular photo about a billion (give or take a million) times, and still to this day every time I see it, I've just got to go, "WOW! That's the most beautiful guitar I've ever seen!" Play that beauty in good health, for a long, long, time!

  26. #200

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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzkritter
    Don you have a lot more faith in Gibson than many of us. If Gibson thought Archtops were a viable market we would see them on the website. There would be clear instructions, not disappearing M2M pages. And you can bet, as they’ve done in the past, the M2M dealers will have to fork up a load of LP and SG orders for the honor of accepting an archtop order.
    Do you have special insights into the mind of Gibson or is the speculation on your part?
    Faith? Who knows. I have ordered archtops from them that had to be made for me, so I suppose that gives me some "faith" compared to those who haven't. They are managing in very challenging circumstances however, and the future is more uncertain.

    People make a big deal out of the fact that you don't see the same kind of "line-up" on their website, and that's true. Putting all those sparkly pictures on the website would presumably generate more orders than they are satisfying now. (That's the purpose of a B2C branding website - sales baby, sales). They seem to be "throttling" incoming orders at this time. Given their circumstances that's not a surprise to me, is it to you?

    Seems to me if they're making more carved top guitars now than "boutique luthier John Doe", there isn't much to complain about, especilly if it's a Gibson that someone wants. (except those AA maple back and sides that is).

    The current guys may make it or not. Given the companies' history I would expect that the brand will live on past all of us, and with a series of owners over time. Orville passed a long time ago.