The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #151

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    The rise of many of the great independent archtop luthiers predated the diminution of Gibson archtop production by several decades. From the 1960s onward, Gibson did not make many carved archtops, and there was plenty of room for independent luthiers to operate. Gibson's focus on solid body and semi guitars was well-established in the 1960s, and set in stone in the 1970s. Even after Gibson started to bang the drum a bit with Custom Shop carved archtops of one sort or another, they made very few of them, and the market was able to support many other builders.
    Last edited by Hammertone; 02-20-2021 at 09:11 AM.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #152
    Apologies if already mentioned, but Steve Laury and Andy Brown are L-5 players.

  4. #153

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    Andy plays an old Tal Farlow iirc but it's a Gibson anyway.

  5. #154

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    Teemu Viinikainen plays '45 Gibson L-4 and 1959 ES-125T.


  6. #155

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone
    Another contemporary player using a Gibson L5 don't know if CES or WesMo is Roni Ben-Hur.
    Roni Ben-Hur’s guitar is a Gibson Johnny Smith.
    Keith

  7. #156

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    When I was a kid, I watched Roy Clark on Hee Haw every week and dreamed of someday owning a Gibson Byrdland.

    I have owned a bunch of Gibsons, hollow, semi, and solid - they were all fine guitars.

    But I don't care a whit about a Gibson logo on a headstock, for at least a couple of decades. There are too many great options available now that didn't exist when I was a twelve-year-old sitting in front of the TV on Saturday night.

  8. #157

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    Quote Originally Posted by floatingpickup
    Roni Ben-Hur’s guitar is a Gibson Johnny Smith.
    Keith
    Thank you. I've been encouraged at the number of Israeli jazz guitarists I'm seeing. Several do play full-depth archtop Gibsons:

    Yotam Silberstein
    Ilya Lushtak
    Elon Turgeman
    Ofter Ganor

  9. #158

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone
    Thank you. I've been encouraged at the number of Israeli jazz guitarists I'm seeing. Several do play full-depth archtop Gibsons:

    Yotam Silberstein
    Ilya Lushtak
    Elon Turgeman
    Ofter Ganor
    I just bought Yotam's new album of duets with Carlos Aguirre: "En El Jardin". Really lovely stuff.

  10. #159

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Soloway
    I just bought Yotam's new album of duets with Carlos Aguirre: "En El Jardin". Really lovely stuff.
    I saw Yotam perform live with his trio a few years ago. They had a date in a small jazz club here in Ontario. He was great, and so were the others in his band. He was no longer playing the L5 by then. He was playing a small bodied Comins guitar, which I believe is his main guitar now.
    Keith

  11. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by wintermoon
    Andy plays an old Tal Farlow iirc but it's a Gibson anyway.
    I could swear I've seen him with an L-5? Maybe a one-off? In any event, I sit corrected.


    Thanks wintermoon and

  12. #161

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    No big deal MB, it's a Gibson which is the point of the conversation

  13. #162
    Very true wintermoon.



  14. #163

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Soloway
    Just curious ... how many prominent CURRENT jazz guitarists can you all name who play a Gibson archtop. Lee Ritenour is the only one I can think of off hand. (And Tuck, but I think his are over 50 years old)
    Coming to jazz in the last decade, the modern players inspiring me are guys like Rosenwinkle, Scofield, Julian Lage, Gilad Hekselman, Romain Pilon, Yotam Silberstein, Hristo Vitchev. As far as I've seen none are playing the dusty old Gibson big boxes. Who aspires to recreate 1965? The edge of jazz cool lies with shops like Victor Baker, Westville, Moffa, Slaman, etc. who produce guitars that look/feel like they fit in the 21st century.

    I feel Gibson was trapped by it's past, couldn't innovate, lost its relevance.

  15. #164

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    Quote Originally Posted by HighSnows
    Coming to jazz in the last decade, the modern players inspiring me are guys like Rosenwinkle, Scofield, Julian Lage, Gilad Hekselman, Romain Pilon, Yotam Silberstein, Hristo Vitchev. As far as I've seen none are playing the dusty old Gibson big boxes. Who aspires to recreate 1965? The edge of jazz cool lies with shops like Victor Baker, Westville, Moffa, Slaman, etc. who produce guitars that look/feel like they fit in the 21st century.

    I feel Gibson was trapped by it's past, couldn't innovate, lost its relevance.
    Slaman's Jazz Pauletta is cooler than the other side of the pillow.



    But his "new vintage" line couldn't be more old school, eh? (In a good way):


  16. #165

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
    Slaman's Jazz Pauletta is cooler than the other side of the pillow.

    But his "new vintage" line couldn't be more old school, eh? (In a good way):
    Totally agree! But there are small changes and appointments that make those guitars look fresh and part of the 21st century.

    Gibson just doesn't seem capable of movement...

  17. #166

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    So I compiled all our names for currently active Gibson archtop players, plus added a few that I have "liked" on the Jazzradio.com "Jazz Guitar" channel. I googled the player, and if I saw lots of pics featuring Gibson archtops, I included them. I doubt any player plays just one guitar or type of guitar exclusively, so I was looking for players that did not surprise me to see them sporting a Gibson archtop of some kind. I did no include semi-hollows, just the basic archtops. Some folks might not consider some of these names to be the hip young up and coming lions, but they are all out there recording and playing jazz on Gibson archtops.

    Of course, lots of other guitars are played by other players, which is totally fine. I love my Telecaster and Jazzmaster, and I think they sound great for jazz "stock." I'm just highlighting that the Gibson archtop has not vanished from the contemporary jazz guitar scene by a long shot.

    Andy Brown (Tal Farlow)
    Roni Ben Hur (Johnny Smith)
    Joshua Breakstone (L5)
    Royce Campbell (L5)
    Yotam Silberstein
    Bruce Forman
    Ilya Lushtak
    Elon Turgeman
    Ofter Ganor
    Teemu Viinikainen (L4, ES125T)
    Steve Laury (L5)
    Miles Okazaki
    Lee Rintenour
    Jonathan Kreisberg
    Chris Flory
    Martijn Van Iterson
    Frank Potenza
    Philip Catherine
    Thom Rotella
    Brian Setzer
    Will Bernard
    Peter Mazza
    Monroe Quinn
    Russell Malone
    Mark Whitfield
    Perry Smith
    Anthony Wilson
    Bill Frisell (reunited with his old ES175)
    Doug Martin
    Marc Schwartz
    Birelli Lagrene
    Joscho Stephan
    Alessio Menconi
    Ron Affif
    Jesse van Ruller
    John Hart
    Peter Mazza

  18. #167

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  19. #168

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone
    I'm just highlighting that the Gibson archtop has not vanished from the contemporary jazz guitar scene by a long shot.
    No argument there, nor that the classics aren't fantastic guitars. But it seems to me the only segment of the market still relevant to Gibson is vintage - where they will always be King, because their aesthetic (which was NEW then) defined the era, and so its still cool and interesting that way.

    Conversely in the NEW market, doesn't Gibson's failure show that the buyer contemplating a $5K+ purchase of a NEW rig wants it to be something different than Gibson vintage? Something that reflects the post slide rule era? Try changing something. Change the shape, the tuners, the pickguard, the knobs, the binding, the finish, do something to make it fresh. Collings understood and took up the baton.

    Maybe Gibson tried with the 275 and the Modern Archtop but it was too little too late. Meanwhile the boutiques smelled opportunity and moved in to claim the high end, and China moved in to claim the value segment. Nowhere to hide.

  20. #169

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    Quote Originally Posted by HighSnows
    No argument there, nor that the classics aren't fantastic guitars. But it seems to me the only segment of the market still relevant to Gibson is vintage - where they will always be King, because their aesthetic (which was NEW then) defined the era, and so its still cool and interesting that way.

    Conversely in the NEW market, doesn't Gibson's failure show that the buyer contemplating a $5K+ purchase of a NEW rig wants it to be something different than Gibson vintage? Something that reflects the post slide rule era? Try changing something. Change the shape, the tuners, the pickguard, the knobs, the binding, the finish, do something to make it fresh. Collings understood and took up the baton.

    Maybe Gibson tried with the 275 and the Modern Archtop but it was too little too late. Meanwhile the boutiques smelled opportunity and moved in to claim the high end, and China moved in to claim the value segment. Nowhere to hide.
    Actually I wasn't responding to you at all. I was responding to an earlier post that asked very simply what current jazz guitarists were playing Gibson archtops, indicating he thought there weren't very many. I'm just answering that question.

    BTW I have bought 2 factory-new Gibson archtops in the last several years, for what it's worth.

  21. #170
    FYI:

    I happened to setup an appointment with Gibson's "Virtual Guitar Tech Service" for this morning to ask a question about the bridge on my WesMo L-5 and during the course of our conversation, I asked about Archtops and whether or not Gibson is producing them any more. The tech told me that they are making them, but only through the Custom Shop's "Made to Measure" program.

    Just thought I'd pass that along.
    Last edited by Midnight Blues; 02-19-2021 at 05:04 PM.

  22. #171

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    Sweetwater is selling Heritage 530s, 575s, and Eagle Classics. Not the same thing I know, but....

    https://www.sweetwater.com/store/manufacturer/Heritage

  23. #172

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    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight Blues
    FYI:

    I happened to setup an appointment with Gibson's "Virtual Guitar Tech Service" for this morning to ask a question about the bridge on my WesMo L-5 and during the course of our conversation, I asked about Archtops and whether or not Gibson is producing them any more. The tech told me that they are making them, but only through the Custom Shop's "Made to Measure" program.

    Just thought I'd pass that along.
    Thanks, an important post! They ARE making them.

    Now - What is the so-called "made to measure" program? No orders for store shelves, rather only for individual customers of the stores who have pre-paid? Just fewer orders entertained? In other words, how is it different from before?


    Never mind that in the tailoring world, "custom" and "made-to measure" mean two different things, neither of which is being done by Gibson AFAIK.

    1. Custom or bespoke suit: "The man spoke and the tailor listened". The idea and style are all from request - blank slate. Measurements are taken, fabric is selected and ordered, individual custom pattern is made for the customer by the master tailor ("cutter"), bastings with a throw- away fabric might be made if the fit is expected to be difficult due to body build/shape. Then the work starts on premises, multiple fittings of a partially through fully made suit are executed, the suit is finished, and the customer walks out with a hand made suit that fits him like a glove (if the master tailor and his team of tailors are good, that is).

    2. Made to measure: An existing suit model is selected, fabric is selected, measurements are taken, then the order is sent to a factory where the suit is made by people that never set eyes upon the customer. When it arrives, the customer tries it on, final alterations are made, and the customer walks out with a standard suit model in his choice of fabric that fits better than the off-the-shelf suit (maybe).


    Based upon experience and observation it seems to me that a guitar made by the Custom Shop is neither "custom" or "made to measure". Why? Because its already a given model (Wesmo for example), it won't likely be offered with a non-standard scale length or body size. But the customer can choose between one of their standard finishes for the model, and perhaps an existing finish color from one of their other models. They may also be able to choose woods. So it's somewhat like made-to-measure, except for the measure/size part.

    So, other than one of those over-the-top collectors guitars that you see Gibson make now and then, that's about as "custom" or "made to measure" as it gets for most customers or dealers.

    Or am I misinformed?

  24. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar
    Thanks, an important post! They ARE making them.

    Now - What is the so-called "made to measure" program? No orders for store shelves, rather only for individual customers of the stores who have pre-paid? Just fewer orders entertained? In other words, how is it different from before?


    Never mind that in the tailoring world, "custom" and "made-to measure" mean two different things, neither of which is being done by Gibson AFAIK.

    1. Custom or bespoke suit: "The man spoke and the tailor listened". The idea and style are all from request - blank slate. Measurements are taken, fabric is selected and ordered, individual custom pattern is made for the customer by the master tailor ("cutter"), bastings with a throw- away fabric might be made if the fit is expected to be difficult due to body build/shape. Then the work starts on premises, multiple fittings of a partially through fully made suit are executed, the suit is finished, and the customer walks out with a hand made suit that fits him like a glove (if the master tailor and his team of tailors are good, that is).

    2. Made to measure: An existing suit model is selected, fabric is selected, measurements are taken, then the order is sent to a factory where the suit is made by people that never set eyes upon the customer. When it arrives, the customer tries it on, final alterations are made, and the customer walks out with a standard suit model in his choice of fabric that fits better than the off-the-shelf suit (maybe).


    Based upon experience and observation it seems to me that a guitar made by the Custom Shop is neither "custom" or "made to measure". Why? Because its already a given model (Wesmo for example), it won't likely be offered with a non-standard scale length or body size. But the customer can choose between one of their standard finishes for the model, and perhaps an existing finish color from one of their other models. They may also be able to choose woods. So it's somewhat like made-to-measure, except for the measure/size part.

    So, other than one of those over-the-top collectors guitars that you see Gibson make now and then, that's about as "custom" or "made to measure" as it gets for most customers or dealers.

    Or am I misinformed?
    If memory serves, I think the program started in 2015?

    I would have to say that I think it falls somewhere between your definition of "Custom" and "Made to Measure". There are a lot of options you can choose from, including I believe, scale length?

    Gibson has taken-down the details for the program on their website (at least I can't find it there), but this should give you some idea:

    https://www.musikhaus-hermann.de/med...erence_NEW.pdf



  25. #174

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    Most importantly, it means that the dealer who handles the order will charge you the full price for it instead of a discounted price. Gibson will build you the guitar with some minor custom touches to assuage the butthurt.

  26. #175

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    Cool, thanks. "Standard models with lots of options" is closer to reality, but not as catchy sounding.

    I can understand not messing with the basic specs of the L5, Super 400 and maybe the Byrdland, unless it's something that they think of/stand behind, like a Lee Ritenour or double-cut L5, etc.

    But it would be cool if the Legrand could flex a little given that it has no such legacy, or um, heritage (groan). Of course it's a cross between a Johnny Smith and an L5 (and the Johnny Smith was a modified L5 anyway).


    Such as the following options:

    Scale length: 25.5, 25.25, or 25"
    Nut width: 1 11/16" or 1 12/16"
    Body: 17x3, or 16x3.
    Wood trim and binding options vs. gold and plastic

    I believe that they could capture more of the modern archtop market with that approach. Vive la Gibson!