The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #51

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    Super 400 and L5s still seem to be available at Thomann. .. at 15k, and 10-12k for an L5. I wonder why no musician is buying one..

    As great as they are, i don't think these guitars can command the prices Gibson had been asking. Most interested buyers will only buy used. I can't think of another brand where customers don't feel the guitar is worth their money as much as a new Gibson.

    On top of that, I literally don't know any musician that considers brand new Gibsons better than the older ones (anything before 2000, not just vintage stuff, which, in hollow bodies often comes with many age issues). Fender for example doesn't seem to have that problem.

    I think the previous CEO did huge damage to the company, and they have a long way to go in order to rectify that.. if they can. Looking at the new owners, I'm not really that optimistic about it..

    And I'm writing all that loving the guitars they make

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #52

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    NOOOoooooooooooo! I miss Henry J. and I want him back! Henry J at least kept the doors of the archtop department open for business. The last time Gibson threatened to close it was in 1989 but Henry persevered.

    This sickens me no end. I really should have bought the L5CESN from Cincy2.

  4. #53

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    I find solace in Archtop Tribute laminated guitars. There's always Benedetto Savannah...

    Japan has a healthy market for Gibson archtops. Gibson may do well to revisit that decision before the skills are forgotten. License the tailpieces and forms out to Jim Triggs, Mark Campellone, et alia. JC need not shut the archtop department down completely.

    Stupid and shortsighted. Guitar types go in and out of fashion.

  5. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alter
    Super 400 and L5s still seem to be available at Thomann. .. at 15k, and 10-12k for an L5. I wonder why no musician is buying one..

    As great as they are, i don't think these guitars can command the prices Gibson had been asking. Most interested buyers will only buy used. I can't think of another brand where customers don't feel the guitar is worth their money as much as a new Gibson.

    On top of that, I literally don't know any musician that considers brand new Gibsons better than the older ones (anything before 2000, not just vintage stuff, which, in hollow bodies often comes with many age issues). Fender for example doesn't seem to have that problem.

    I think the previous CEO did huge damage to the company, and they have a long way to go in order to rectify that.. if they can. Looking at the new owners, I'm not really that optimistic about it..

    And I'm writing all that loving the guitars they make
    Well for me as a musician with limited funds the question is - I might buy one carved archtop. What do I choose to spend my hard earned money on? There more choice now.

    my impression was that their high end archtops were built like their semi acoustics, which is to say well, but solid and heavy

    Obviously I didn’t try all of their guitars, I’ve tried far more vintage Gibson archtops, because that’s what cats actually play, and laminate or carved they all have a lightness and resonance to them.

    I’m also aware dealers were often accepting a loss for guitars they couldn’t sell. That can’t be good .

    Jazz guitarists haven’t been choosing new Gibson archtops for a while. 335’s maybe.
    Last edited by christianm77; 01-23-2021 at 05:19 AM.

  6. #55

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    Some talented luthiers are now carrying the tortch

    RIP Gibson Archtop guitar-daniel-slaman-jpg

    I'm so glad I met Daniel Slaman in 2015.
    Last edited by Fred Archtop; 01-23-2021 at 02:03 PM.

  7. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fred Archtop
    Some talented lutheirs are now carrying the tortch

    RIP Gibson Archtop guitar-daniel-slaman-jpg

    I'm so glad I met Daniel Slaman in 2015.
    One of quite a few makers making Gibsons the way they used to.

  8. #57

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    Who can afford a $10,000 guitar?

  9. #58

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    Just curious ... how many prominent CURRENT jazz guitarists can you all name who play a Gibson archtop. Lee Ritenour is the only one I can think of off hand. (And Tuck, but I think his are over 50 years old)

  10. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Soloway
    Lee Ritenour is the only one I can think of off hand.
    If you even can call a 69 year old CURRENT?

    Anyways I digress .. some of my favorite Ritenour stuff is him and his L5, but he also does spend a lot of his time playing his Les Paul (or back in the day the 335)

  11. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Soloway
    Just curious ... how many prominent CURRENT jazz guitarists can you all name who play a Gibson archtop. Lee Ritenour is the only one I can think of off hand. (And Tuck, but I think his are over 50 years old)
    Off the top of my head, Jonathan Kreisberg, Andy Brown, Chris Flory.

    In Europe, Martijn Van Iterson, Philip Catherine.
    Last edited by grahambop; 01-23-2021 at 10:13 AM.

  12. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Soloway
    Just curious ... how many prominent CURRENT jazz guitarists can you all name who play a Gibson archtop. Lee Ritenour is the only one I can think of off hand. (And Tuck, but I think his are over 50 years old)
    One question is how many own such instruments and another is how many gig with them.

    The jazz club scene has closed down for about a year. There and in the orchestra pits are where I'd expect to see the greatest use of traditional archtops. Even in those venues I'll bet that less than 5% of the audiences would appreciate the differences between a L-5 and a 335. But it's those few who can tell, plus you and your band mates, that put a smile on your face.

    Just be sure when you leave the gig late at night you go out into a well lit parking area with a bunch of guys with you, if you want to bring your axe back home.

    Here's a current "jazz" player on a L-5. It happens!


  13. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    If you even can call a 69 year old CURRENT?

    Anyways I digress .. some of my favorite Ritenour stuff is him and his L5, but he also does spend a lot of his time playing his Les Paul (or back in the day the 335)
    Given that he just released a wonderful new record a few weeks ago, yes, I consider him to be current.

  14. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Soloway
    Given that he just released a wonderful new record a few weeks ago, yes, I consider him to be current.

    Thanks for the heads up. I've missed that release

  15. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marty Grass
    One question is how many own such instruments and another is how many gig with them.

    The jazz club scene has closed down for about a year. There and in the orchestra pits are where I'd expect to see the greatest use of traditional archtops. Even in those venues I'll bet that less than 5% of the audiences would appreciate the differences between a L-5 and a 335. But it's those few who can tell, plus you and your band mates, that put a smile on your face.

    Just be sure when you leave the gig late at night you go out into a well lit parking area with a bunch of guys with you, if you want to bring your axe back home.

    Here's a current "jazz" player on a L-5. It happens!

    Current guy playing a guitar built in 1941, though (not for nothing, I'd love to see him record an album of standard interpretations. That would probably be a lot of fun).

    Can we think of any professional players using a Gibson archtop made in the last 10 years? You do see Gibsons in the hands of younger players, but they tend to look like vintage guitars.

  16. #65

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    This thread has made me a little sad I must say.
    But, one thing is for certain. The company that created the benchmark that I judge all guitars after has done what they had to do to survive. If I owned a company that made cameras or calculators or even GPS devices and no one was buying them any more, would I continue to manufacture them just to please the few people who still buy them? Or would I just start building smart phones?
    Same deal here, should Gibson continue to make 175’s and L5’s for the 200 or so people here on the forum, when only (let’s face it, because it’s true), only one or 2 (Vinny and somebody else I couldn’t think of) is willing to pay the price for a new one? You be the judge.
    One last thing I’ll say. I am SOO glad I got my L5. I played it this morning and it is LIGHT YEARS better any other guitar I own. Endless sustain, effortless playability - its a bank vault versus everything else which are Tupperware containers. My L5 punches you right in the ear and my Emperor Regent tickles me underneath the balls. Sorry ladies. (Oh yeah, no ladies here read my posts)..
    The Gibson I love will always rest in a warm place in my heart. Still the only guitar I really want to buy but I won’t buy a new one anyway, because I’d rather save the money (for my Jetski) and find a good deal on one that was made 10 years ago.

    JD

  17. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by Max405
    should Gibson continue to make 175’s and L5’s for the 200 or so people here on the forum, when only (let’s face it, because it’s true), only one or 2 (Vinny and somebody else I couldn’t think of) is willing to pay the price for a new one? You be the judge.

    Yeah ... We can all agree on the fact that Gibson archtops are stellar, but I suspect that no more than a handful of people here bought new Gibson's even 10 years ago before their prices started skyrocketing (unless they where on deep sale that is .. Plenty did a bit of buying at the CME sale)

  18. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
    NOOOoooooooooooo! I miss Henry J. and I want him back! Henry J at least kept the doors of the archtop department open for business. The last time Gibson threatened to close it was in 1989 but Henry persevered.

    This sickens me no end. I really should have bought the L5CESN from Cincy2.
    I am sure glad that I bought that one. She has found a good home.

    I too miss Henry J. IMO, the best Gibson archtops ever happened under his watch.....

  19. #68

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    It’s unfortunate to some extent , but the Asian manufactures have taken over most of the market when it comes to affordable factory production of traditional Archtop guitars and derivatives. The offerings are endless - and most have excellent build quality. As for future collectibility- it’s non existent - just too many Asian guitars flooding the market.

    For example - if you look at the Asian built D’Angelicos - the company offers numerous models , with a continued focus on keeping a traditional aesthetic , while at the same time spinning off modern looking guitars for young players. Many You Tube videos I’ve seen actually do have young people playing Asian built guitars. Why .....they are affordable and this younger generation, (besides having little disposable income) , has no allegiance to traditional Gibson Archtop guitars - only to Les Paul , to some extent.

    Even though I’m hearing sadness about Gibson’s decision to stop new Archtop production - I doubt more than a few people would be buying them new anyway. Our brains, and perhaps our budgets, will always reflect back to the routed prices of a few years ago. And for those who were on the fence about buying - but waiting for more price contraction - are likely now feeling regretful.

    But no despair - there are tons of used Gibson’s on the market - so it’s not like they all vanished overnight. Its just that the current used asking prices - in many cases are higher than some “nos “ prices of just a few years.

    It’s like missing out on buying Apple stock on the way up. It’s never too late to buy in to something which is perceived as quality / value.

    So if the sadness is overwhelming - buy a nice used Gibson Archtop , and when you look back in a few years, you’ll likely be glad you did.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  20. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Soloway
    Just curious ... how many prominent CURRENT jazz guitarists can you all name who play a Gibson archtop. Lee Ritenour is the only one I can think of off hand. (And Tuck, but I think his are over 50 years old)
    Hmmmm, Peter Mazza plays a Super V, Russell Malone plays L5s, Super Vs, Super 400s, Perry Smith plays a late 90s ES-175, Anthony Wilson was playing a Byrdland a few years back, at present I'm not sure.

  21. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by vinnyv1k
    Those at Dave’s are new so I stand corrected. They are trickling in standard L5 models still.
    CME told me they are not taking in new orders at this time on any archtops but this may just be a backlog issue. This also happened during the fretboard siege.
    I am getting conflicting info from dealers. Still no archtops in there 2021 lineup.
    The woods are not as flamey on the new ones at Dave’s but still look very nice.
    So, they are still making archtops in limited production through a small list of dealers?

  22. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by QAman
    they are affordable and this younger generation, (besides having little disposable income) , has no allegiance to traditional Gibson Archtop guitars - only to Les Paul , to some extent.
    The young are just practical about these thing is my guess


    I saw a live stream with a younger player recently, where he was asked why he played a korean guitar, his reply was just:

    Hey an L5 is nice, but the thing is I gig and I go to jam sessions and thus it's unavoidable that my guitar gets a few knocks here and there. I've played expensive archtops, but I feel that once you go over €2000 you don't get enough extra to justify the larger price.

  23. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    The young are just practical about these thing is my guess


    I saw a live stream with a younger player recently, where he was asked why he played a korean guitar, his reply was just:

    Hey an L5 is nice, but the thing is I gig and I go to jam sessions and thus it's unavoidable that my guitar gets a few knocks here and there. I've played expensive archtops, but I feel that once you go over €2000 you don't get enough extra to justify the larger price.
    My Gibson guitars all have dings and scratches from being used on gigs (it is unavoidable unless your gigs are all concerts where you have the space to protect the guitar). Two of my six Gibson archtops were bought new (the CME Blowout) and the first ding in each of those guitars bothered me, but the enjoyment of playing music on such fine instruments overshadows that. I have owned and played some worthy Asian made archtops (Japan and Korea) and I have owned and played other American made archtops (Guild, Epiphone and Gretsch) and I have owned and played a few boutique archtops. For me, playing jazz gigs on a Gibson archtop (a 175, L-5 or Super 400) just feels "right".

    You get one trip through life, if you can afford it, why not go first class?

  24. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stringswinger
    You get one trip through life, if you can afford it, why not go first class?

    Yeah .. That is the catch .. if you can afford it ... Which usually means not being young

  25. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gitpicker
    Hmmmm, Peter Mazza plays a Super V, Russell Malone plays L5s, Super Vs, Super 400s, Perry Smith plays a late 90s ES-175, Anthony Wilson was playing a Byrdland a few years back, at present I'm not sure.
    I thought of Anthony Wilson after I posted. His playing on the new Melody Gardot album is just stunning (as is the album). I'm sure there are lots, especially when you include vintage Gibsons but when I look at the dominant players of the last several decades, Benson and Scofield play Ibanez. Stern plays a Yamaha. Frisell seems to mostly play Fenders. Martino has played a bunch of different guitars (including two relatively short spells with a Gibson). Metheny has now played an Ibanez for decades. Chuck Loeb played Sadowskys. Ulf Wakenius plays a Benedetto (when he's not playing an acoustic or his pawn shop special). Martin Taylor seems play anything they put his name on, none of which were Gibsons. And of couse Ed Bickert played a Tele. That an awful lot of top tier talent with not much Gibson representation over a lot of years.

  26. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by vinnyv1k
    Those at Dave’s are new so I stand corrected. They are trickling in standard L5 models still.
    CME told me they are not taking in new orders at this time on any archtops but this may just be a backlog issue. This also happened during the fretboard siege.
    I am getting conflicting info from dealers. Still no archtops in there 2021 lineup.
    The woods are not as flamey on the new ones at Dave’s but still look very nice.
    We can only hope that the case.