RIP Gibson Archtop guitar

[lammie200]

...It has always bugged me more than a little that Gibson takes a decent idea from the past and then markets it like they reinvented the wheel. And prices it accordingly...

Yeah, and this also doesn't do much for the "Buy Genuine" campaign.

[Litterick]

If you were a cellist that would be a cheap instrument. I think cellos and archtops are comparable in construction etc.

Guitarists tend to collectors so they have a different relationship with instruments. But remind me, how many Zeidlers does Peter Bernstein own?

We are in the midst of a pandemic, the economy is in crisis, the dictators are aggressive, and the climate is frightening. The concert halls are closed, the music business is run by algorithms, and even the gods are selling their gear. The second-hand market is enlarged with desperate sales and deceased estates.

This is not a good time to make major purchases.

[Hammertone]

...The overall demand for full-bodied archtops just doesn't seem to justify serial manufacturing. Don't have a clue of Höfner's numbers, but AFAIK they are the only industrial maker of archtops with their books in Europe, ever since Furch gave up. ...

Hofner hasn't been interested in making archtop guitars for several years. My guess is that they make a half-dozen a year. Maybe.
I don't think this is a reflection of the state of the market so much as a reflection of the quality of the current management team.

Gibson archtop production? I don't think the fat lady has sung yet. I think the margin opportunity in a M2M program that includes archtops is probably quite attractive if it's well-managed.

[m_d]

I saw a recent-looking Furch archtop the other day on Reverb or eBay. Didn't bother to check but I wondered if they started making archtops again. Looked nice, reasonable price.

[Doctor Jeff]

We are in the midst of a pandemic, the economy is in crisis, the dictators are aggressive, and the climate is frightening. The concert halls are closed, the music business is run by algorithms, and even the gods are selling their gear. The second-hand market is enlarged with desperate sales and deceased estates.

This is not a good time to make major purchases.

Au contraire, rich people getting even richer during the pandemic. According to my friend Rob who manages a local guitar store, that includes guitar store owners.

Wealthy people always have to have something to spend their money on. If they aren’t traveling to Hawaii or Vail, they might consider a high end guitar, or (if they took string instruments in high school) a CELLO.

Heck, I’m not Uber-wealthy, but since I DIDN’T go to Hawaii in 2020 I found it easier to justify buying a new guitar.

Also, what else you gonna do with your free time. Talk to your S.O. 24/7???

[Doctor Jeff]

Slightly off-topic but since cellos were mentioned...

My buddy and bandmate Jon collects basses. I mean literally—he has about 35. He usually gets them for a song—old big-band or college basses that have been used and abused—and he has a talented guy in town who can rehab them for a couple of hundred dollars.

He has a lot of them painted by a local artist as well—some are airbrushed using car paints, some are acrylic artsy works. He has a couple of aluminum cellos that were popular with schools because they don’t warp or crack—has an auto guy sand them and polish them to a high sheen.

I guess my only point is that maybe quality violins and cellos are hard to come by, but basses seem to be not so desirable on the used market.

[Lobomov]

Apparently by mistake posted a draft that I later decided not to post

[silvertonebetty]

But that is not what we're doing .. We're comparing professional grade instruments vs. professional grade instruments ... Cello vs. guitar ... I mean 400 bucks will get you a fine guitar as well ... This one for example

I agree . You don’t have to spend big bucks to get a good guitar these days . And a lot of over sea manufacturers have great quality control. Others not so much .


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[TedBPhx]

Bought a Taylor acoustic last spring and a Mesa Rosette amp. This winter though I’ve been playing my 2017 Memphis Figured Natural 175 from the CME blowout through the ToneMaster Twin from a sale a year ago. I consider myself to be a lucky man.

Es 175 is gone from production

Mesa is no longer independent

Taylor is employee owned - probably a good thing

Hope Fender sticks around.

[Betz]

The ES135 was a hollowbody in the 1950's and returned as a semi-hollow in the 1990's.

Hah! Where else but TJGF could someone just pull that out of their hat!

It is interesting to know there was a precedent. Thanks!

[Hammertone]

...My buddy and bandmate Jon collects basses. I mean literally—he has about 35. ...

That's a lot of uprights. I guess he has some space for them. I have room for only two uprights. Any more and I could get a larger place with room for more, out of the city, after the divorce.

...I guess my only point is that maybe quality violins and cellos are hard to come by, but basses seem to be not so desirable on the used market. ...

Good upright basses are not cheap and not so easy to find. Cheap basses are...cheap and easy to find. The introduction of cheap Chinese-built uprights over the past decade or two has utterly killed the marketplace for cheap and mid-priced student-level Czech and German basses, as well as old cheap American basses. IMO. It does mean that the occasional really nice old upright bass that comes up on cl or kijiji (as opposed to more formal channels) can be had for very little. Collecting them is more work as well - they're too big to ship, they almost always need a bunch of work, they are much more expensive to maintain than smaller instruments, etceteras.

Interestingly enough, when Epiphone called it a day in 1957, Gibson bought Epi specifically to acquire its cheap upright bass manufacturing capabilities. The guitar-making stuff that came with the deal was a bonus, and has been described by some as a surprise to Gibson when they unpacked the crates that they received. Gibson upright bass production was a failure for a bunch of reasons, and they gave up on it by '64, when the last remaining uprights were shipped.

[Donplaysguitar]

Those at Dave’s are new so I stand corrected. They are trickling in standard L5 models still.
CME told me they are not taking in new orders at this time on any archtops but this may just be a backlog issue. This also happened during the fretboard siege.
I am getting conflicting info from dealers. Still no archtops in there 2021 lineup.
The woods are not as flamey on the new ones at Dave’s but still look very nice.

Thanks vinnyv1k!

And just to clarify - they are still making them, just limited and through only a few dealers?

[jazzkritter]

Vinny
Dave’s L5 at 10599 says it’s on hold.... wonder if it’s anyone here?
( no not me ones enough)))

[Doctor Jeff]

That's a lot of uprights. I guess he has some space for them. I have room for only two uprights. Any more and I could get a larger place with room for more, out of the city, after the divorce.

Good upright basses are not cheap and not so easy to find. Cheap basses are...cheap and easy to find. The introduction of cheap Chinese-built uprights over the past decade or two has utterly killed the marketplace for cheap and mid-priced student-level Czech and German basses, as well as old cheap American basses. IMO. It does mean that the occasional really nice old upright bass that comes up on cl or kijiji (as opposed to more formal channels) can be had for very little. Collecting them is more work as well - they're too big to ship, they almost always need a bunch of work, they are much more expensive to maintain than smaller instruments, etceteras.

Interestingly enough, when Epiphone called it a day in 1957, Gibson bought Epi specifically to acquire its cheap upright bass manufacturing capabilities. The guitar-making stuff that came with the deal was a bonus, and has been described by some as a surprise to Gibson when they unpacked the crates that they received. Gibson upright bass production was a failure for a bunch of reasons, and they gave up on it by '64, when the last remaining uprights were shipped.

Interesting. I am just glad none of my kids wanted to play upright bass. Or Tuba. Otherwise I would have needed to get a bigger vehicle.

[RobbieAG]

Well they do have the semi hollow models and ES-350T. Looks like the Epiphone offerings are limited too. No Emperor, Broadway or ES-175 models . Wow, I can't believe they're asking $9,999.00 for a Jimi Hendrix Flying V and SG Custom.

[Lobomov]

Well they do have the semi hollow models and ES-350T. Looks like the Epiphone offerings are limited too. No Emperor, Broadway or ES-175 models . Wow, I can't believe they're asking $9,999.00 for a Jimi Hendrix Flying V and SG Custom.

Those JH models are just 150 units in total

Finding 150 people with 10k to burn is doable .. finding more probably not.

Reviews are stellar

[RobbieAG]

Those JH models are just 150 units in total

Finding 150 people with 10k to burn is doable .. finding more probably not.

Reviews are stellar

I would imagine the profit margin is much better on these guitars than it was selling an L5 at around that price.

[Danny W.]

Interesting. I am just glad none of my kids wanted to play upright bass. Or Tuba. Otherwise I would have needed to get a bigger vehicle.

I sometimes work with a big guy who plays upright. After one gig he drove up to me to talk while I was loading my stuff into my SUV and I noticed he was driving a Mini Clubman. I said "What did you do with your bass and amp?" and he showed me it was in the back with the neck aimed straight towards the front down the center of the car. I was amazed.

Danny W.

[vinnyv1k]

Vinny
Dave’s L5 at 10599 says it’s on hold.... wonder if it’s anyone here?
( no not me ones enough)))

Getting list price too. Starve the people and they will pay anything for a morsel of food.

[vinnyv1k]

Another plate of crow I must eat......my dislike of Henry J. He actually wanted every genre of music covered. Hindsight is 20/20.

[RyanM]

New CEO is doing a great job. They will probably be back one day. But if they can't sell enough them, of course they will stop making them.

[floatingpickup]

I sometimes work with a big guy who plays upright. After one gig he drove up to me to talk while I was loading my stuff into my SUV and I noticed he was driving a Mini Clubman. I said "What did you do with your bass and amp?" and he showed me it was in the back with the neck aimed straight towards the front down the center of the car. I was amazed.

Danny W.

I have noticed over the years that people who play double bass often drive the smallest cars.
Keith

[Jim Soloway]

Those JH models are just 150 units in total

Finding 150 people with 10k to burn is doable .. finding more probably not.

Reviews are stellar

I've never understood the Gibson Hendrix guitars. I know he played a couple Gibsons (he also played a Danelectro as a young side man) but is there really anyone who thinks of Hendrix as anything other than a Strat player

[Lobomov]

I've never understood the Gibson Hendrix guitars. I know he pkayed a couple Gibsons (he also played a Danelectro as a young side man) but is there really anyone who thinks og Hendrix as anything other than a Strat player

I don't get it either .. I mean at least the V has that videly known picture to go with it, but the SG?

[John A.]

I don't get it either .. I mean at least the V has that videly known picture to go with it, but the SG?

Hendrix played a white SG custom from time to time. There are a few video on youtube of this (I've seen one of him playing Red House with the Expericence, and another of him on the Dick Cavett show right after Woodstock), and a bunch of photos. Supposedly he used it a lot on the last studio album (First Rays of the New Rising Sun/Cry of Love). But, obviously, yes, he was known for the Strat.

John

[wintermoon]

I've never understood the Gibson Hendrix guitars. I know he played a couple Gibsons (he also played a Danelectro as a young side man) but is there really anyone who thinks of Hendrix as anything other than a Strat player

yeah, but the fact he did play a V is enough for Gibson to capitalize on it.

[Doctor Jeff]

I have noticed over the years that people who play double bass often drive the smallest cars.
Keith

Well my partner’s wouldn’t fit in my double cab Tacoma once so we threw it in the bed, which is only 5 feet, so it still stuck out above the gate. Fortunately no rain that day!

He drives a Lexus 350 now, and it fits in there reasonable well apparently (there is a use for SUVs after all I guess...).

[jazzkritter]

And from what I’ve read his estate likes to capitalize on his name for good money deals.

he sure don’t look happy with that V around his neck)

[Doug B]

We'll probably see a lot more jazz being played on Teles ala Ed Bickert.

[John A.]

I don't get it either .. I mean at least the V has that videly known picture to go with it, but the SG?

Hendrix played a white SG custom from time to time. There are a few video on youtube of this (I've seen one of him playing Red House with the Expericence, and another of him on the Dick Cavett show right after Woodstock), and a bunch of photos. Supposedly he used it a lot on the last studio album (First Rays of the New Rising Sun/Cry of Love). But, obviously, yes, he was known for the Strat.

John

[silvertonebetty]

Hendrix played a white SG custom from time to time. There are a few video on youtube of this (I've seen one of him playing Red House with the Expericence, and another of him on the Dick Cavett show right after Woodstock), and a bunch of photos. Supposedly he used it a lot on the last studio album (First Rays of the New Rising Sun/Cry of Love). But, obviously, yes, he was known for the Strat.

John

I think people just simply forget some artists played other instruments. Like Carlos Santa used to be a Gibson artist, then Yamaha and now prs. Like Jeff beck used to be a Gibson artist but is mainly recalled as a strat guy.


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[Midnight Blues]

No affiliation, but there are some absolutely gorgeous WesMo's on Reverb and an equally gorgeous Lee Ritenour.

[silvertonebetty]

No affiliation, but there are some absolutely gorgeous WesMo's on Reverb and an equally gorgeous Lee Ritenour.

I was paying off an lr10 when he sold it to another person and I never got my $200 back


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[Doctor Jeff]

I think people just simply forget some artists played other instruments. Like Carlos Santa used to be a Gibson artist, then Yamaha and now prs. Like Jeff beck used to be a Gibson artist but is mainly recalled as a strat guy.


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The Yamaha he used during the 70’s, e.g., Moonflower, is his best tone, IMHO. Absolutely unbelievable sound.

[Gustavo Eiriz]

The problem is that Gibson sound is unique. No one does it. There are for sure other builders which might be even better in terms of quality. Like Campellone, or Trenier or Triggs. But the sound of Gibson is quite unique. The thicker tops... It is not that you can imitate that easy. Someones does even better instruments. But that sound of the L-5 no ones does it. Neither Heritage guys.

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[Alter]

Besides sound, two other strong points would be the playability and feedback resistance of Gibson archtops. Don't know how they do it, but there is a world of difference with most other brands in both areas.

[Midnight Blues]

I was paying off an lr10 when he sold it to another person and I never got my $200 back


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Not cool. Which one was it?

[silvertonebetty]

Not cool. Which one was it?

An 1982 ee ritenour. It had the pickups changed but the og pickups where in the case


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[vinnyv1k]

Everyone complains about slanted pickups on Gibson archtops.
Jim Culberson told me it helps reduce feedback.
They do it on purpose. Reduces magnetic strength.
Hence I don’t flip mine.

[RyanM]

We'll probably see a lot more jazz being played on Teles ala Ed Bickert.

Who's playing jazz on Gibsons? All the younger or working people are playing Ibanez or Eastman. Gibson is for the professionals, retired or higher income hobbyists. Aren't there enough Gibsons available on the used market for now?

[Herbie]

Oh man, sad news.

In 1960 Gibson stopped making Les Pauls because everybody thought they were ’yesterday’.

Then went seven years when they realised that the World needs Les Pauls and started to make them again in 1968. And it still goes strong.

Let’s hope that history repeats itself!

[Doctor Jeff]

Oh man, sad news.

In 1960 Gibson stopped making Les Pauls because everybody thought they were ’yesterday’.

Then went seven years when they realised that the World needs Les Pauls and started to make them again in 1968. And it still goes strong.

Let’s hope that history repeats itself!

I think they were still making the Les Paul SG though during that time period.

[citizenk74]

The Yamaha he used during the 70’s, e.g., Moonflower, is his best tone, IMHO. Absolutely unbelievable sound.

Stripped and re-equipped with Gibson parts - frets, pups, electronics per Paul Reed Smith to me in '86. The grand piano-shaped brass sustain block under the bridge was retained.

[Lobomov]

Oh man, sad news.

In 1960 Gibson stopped making Les Pauls because everybody thought they were ’yesterday’.

Then went seven years when they realised that the World needs Les Pauls and started to make them again in 1968. And it still goes strong.

Let’s hope that history repeats itself!

But they where yesterday at that point in time. Nobody wanted them and they didn't sell.


It was until July '66 when the Beano Album hit the record stores that things changed






So what we need know is a gifted guitar player to make a Top 10 record, where he makes new and innovative sounds on his Gibson archtop guitar

[lawson-stone]

Who's playing jazz on Gibsons? All the younger or working people are playing Ibanez or Eastman. Gibson is for the professionals, retired or higher income hobbyists. Aren't there enough Gibsons available on the used market for now?

Another contemporary player using a Gibson L5 don't know if CES or WesMo is Roni Ben-Hur.

[skittles]

Miles Okazaki - contemporary player, vintage Gibby.


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[Doctor Jeff]

Stripped and re-equipped with Gibson parts - frets, pups, electronics per Paul Reed Smith to me in '86. The grand piano-shaped brass sustain block under the bridge was retained.

Really? I didn’t know that. Not surprised about the pickups though. Hard to improve on Gibson pickups at least at that point in time.

[archtopeddy]

So what we need know is a gifted guitar player to make a Top 10 record, where he makes new and innovative sounds on his Gibson archtop guitar

Damn, too late!

[Hammertone]

Damn, too late!

Yeah, too late to tell him to rotate the &^%$# bridge on that thing.

[silverfoxx]

Who's playing jazz on Gibsons? All the younger or working people are playing Ibanez or Eastman. Gibson is for the professionals, retired or higher income hobbyists. Aren't there enough Gibsons available on the used market for now?

There may well be a plethora of used Gibsons available in the USA and Canada ? But there is not an abundance of them in Europe , and in particular
the UK, Cost as well as lack of availability is the problem for younger and the not so well off players. Gibson Archtop prices are now exorbitant
I assume that older players cling on to cherished Gibsons and private Luthier built guitars for that reason. The Gibson company's attitude to
their long term customers is one of indifference, The focus with their new CEO seems to be centred upon Solid bodied and thin line guitars.
Possibly an error of judgement in closing the Crimson Custom shop.(?) Having owned several Crimson Custom built Archtops one can say that they
are/were superb. and the prices, although high , were within reach of the serious buyer. The consequence has been the rise of the Independent good
Luthiers ,a number of whom are able to produce guitars equal to or better than the current crop from Gibson and at a considerably lower cost.

Kind regards, Silverfoxx