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  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by icr

    Maybe this is next....


    currently, that's called the tonemaster series!....solid state that sounds just like tube! is what they said... way back when...same as now! hah...come back in 20 years, unlike tube amps, there won't be any left!


    also will say late 60's was pre all this vintage gear love that exists today...many people wanted new gear!...tweeds were relics...the silverface tube fenders only became less desirable in retrospect!...also bands getting that new fender gear made younger or wannabe players want to have that same gear...

    think of what jimi did for marshall!!


    cheers
    Last edited by neatomic; 01-16-2021 at 08:48 PM. Reason: cl-

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  3. #52

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    Silverface was still reviled only a few years ago. But Fender marketing made it cool again, not long after the failure of the Pawn Shop amps. Fender makes new amps that look like old amps. Fender has found living in the past to be profitable.

    No wonder Gibson bought Mesa: point of difference.

  4. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by icr
    Yes, maybe I am older than everyone in Fender's marketing department, but when these silver face amps came out, nobody wanted them. They were forced on buyers that could not get used blackface and brown amps.

    Maybe this is next....

    is that the latest Tonemaster?

  5. #54

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    The Pro Reverb is nothing like the original - one channel instead of two, one speaker instead of two. I'd be more inclined to get the current Deluxe Reverb Custom 68 or 65 reissue.

  6. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by icr
    Yes, maybe I am older than everyone in Fender's marketing department, but when these silver face amps came out, nobody wanted them. They were forced on buyers that could not get used blackface and brown
    I’m not sure I agree with this. I was around and gigging when the silver-faced amps replaced the black-faced amps. No one cared about the “vintage” aspect then - they just wanted the latest thing. Newer and bigger was supposed to be better. I remember feeling that I was falling behind when some of my friends got shiny new silver-faced twins and I was still playing through an “outdated” black-faced vibrolux reverb. Even the Beatles plugged into silver-faced twins on the rooftop at Apple Records. I don’t think we realized that the old amps were as good as they were until years later.
    Keith

  7. #56

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    They should reissue Jazzmaster.

    Some very cool new amps coming from Fender.-fender-ultralight-jazzmaster-57331-jpg

  8. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by icr
    Yes, maybe I am older than everyone in Fender's marketing department, but when these silver face amps came out, nobody wanted them.
    That's not the case with any of my peer group. There was ZERO acknowledgement of blackface vs silverface back then. We just bought whatever the shop had. The assumption was the newer models were better. It wasn't until years later that we realized the earlier ones sounded better. The silverface amps with master volume were VERY sought after by working musicians. Nobody knew anything about ultralinear output transformers or treble bleed capacitors. We just knew they were supposed to be more reliable.

  9. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by RobbieAG
    The Pro Reverb is nothing like the original - one channel instead of two, one speaker instead of two. I'd be more inclined to get the current Deluxe Reverb Custom 68 or 65 reissue.
    The new Pro Reverb has the advantage of the 2x6L6 output stage over the Deluxe Reverb and should - in theory - stay clean longer when things get louder (depends on speaker efficiency and OT-size as well, I know), which could be desirable for guitarist gigging with hammond players or playing in big bands for example.

  10. #59

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    I just like amps. In my experience every one has some unique aspect (or two, or three) that sets me off (on a good day) in a creative direction. Turn a knob, any knob, and play with that sound for awhile. "Play" of course in the sense of like a kid - just "play."

  11. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by Little Jay
    Not cheap, but that Pro Reverb is the missing link in the Fender amp arsenal! Litterally half a Twin! I always wondered why Fender never came with an amp like that!
    I’m not an amp expert by any means. But I always thought a Fender Hot Rod Deluxe with 6L6 tubes and 40 watts was half a twin also.

  12. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by fasteddie
    I’m not an amp expert by any means. But I always thought a Fender Hot Rod Deluxe with 6L6 tubes and 40 watts was half a twin also.
    completely different circuit. In theory the pro reverb should be nice but with all the changes they've made, who knows what voltages and transformers they are using. Many of the really good vacuum tube transformer manufacturers have gone belly up since the start of the pandemic.

  13. #62

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    "So a speaker change might be helpful. I went to Weber 10F150, 50 watts (more head room than 25watt) light dope. $103"

    Good choice and not a piggy bank breaker.
    I don't use modern Fenders but if I were interested in one of these I'd wait awhile til a used came up for sale and save.30%.

  14. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    That's not the case with any of my peer group. There was ZERO acknowledgement of blackface vs silverface back then. We just bought whatever the shop had. The assumption was the newer models were better. It wasn't until years later that we realized the earlier ones sounded better. The silverface amps with master volume were VERY sought after by working musicians. Nobody knew anything about ultralinear output transformers or treble bleed capacitors. We just knew they were supposed to be more reliable.
    I was stationed abroad in the mid-'60's. At the time I had a '64 JBL-loaded Twin Reverb with me and a same-year, non-reverb Deluxe back at my mother's place. When I got rotated back to the states in '68 I'd be required to ship the amp back via military "hold baggage." As a sergeant had once explained to me "They take your s$#t and hold it until they're good and f%^&ing ready!" The trip down there had taken the amp four months and I didn't want to wait that long again so I sold it (and my L-4C) to a guy in a C&W band. Soon after I got back I went to Sam Ash in Brooklyn and told my salesman I was looking for another one--when I told him what had happened to the previous one he said "You shouldn't have done that; the new ones are crap." He was talking about the line of SS amps. I bought a '68 silverface Bandmaster. The other guitar player in my band had a '68 SF Twin Reverb with JBLs and it was a great amp. Nobody was complaining about SF tube amps back then.

    Danny W.

  15. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by fasteddie
    I’m not an amp expert by any means. But I always thought a Fender Hot Rod Deluxe with 6L6 tubes and 40 watts was half a twin also.
    I agree with Jack: the Hot Rod (and Blues) Deluxe has a different circuit that steers away a bit further from the AB763 circuit and sounds different imho....

    In fact, I swapped out the pots, caps and resistors in the tone stack and the long tail PI to AB763 values and put a 12at7 as PI tube in my ‘93 Blues Deluxe amp and like it a whole lot better. Comes much closer to half a Twin like that.

    But as Jack mentioned: voltages and trafos play a role as well! Curious to see a schematic with voltages for that new Pro Reverb. The high voltage on the anodes of the first 12ax7 gives that bright clean Twin Reverb sound.

    I also found the 820 ohm value for the negative feedback resistor mandatory for the Twin Reverb sound and Fender states they have reduced the nfb in the new Pro Reverb (by upping that resistor value, probably to 10K or 22K), but that’s an easy change if you’re handy with the soldering iron. (That’s also what brings the 68 Custom back into 65 territory, btw.)

  16. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by Little Jay
    The new Pro Reverb has the advantage of the 2x6L6 output stage over the Deluxe Reverb and should - in theory - stay clean longer when things get louder (depends on speaker efficiency and OT-size as well, I know), which could be desirable for guitarist gigging with hammond players or playing in big bands for example.
    This was my thought. I was pretty excited when I saw the Pro Reverb, because I expected it to be a Princeton/Deluxe type thing with more headroom. It sounds to me like it's being marketed to rockers, though. I found this on Sweetwater: "Fender also tweaked the amp's negative feedback to give it increased touch sensitivity, and it also starts to overdrive faster."

    I'm not too sure about those Neo speakers either. They are lighter, but I've heard they aren't great for band mixes or jazz. They have a really nice, shimmery treble and boomy bass, which sounds good in a shop or youtube demo, but the midrange kinda suffers. We'll see...

  17. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by IMadeYouReadThis
    This was my thought. I was pretty excited when I saw the Pro Reverb, because I expected it to be a Princeton/Deluxe type thing with more headroom. It sounds to me like it's being marketed to rockers, though. I found this on Sweetwater: "Fender also tweaked the amp's negative feedback to give it increased touch sensitivity, and it also starts to overdrive faster."

    I'm not too sure about those Neo speakers either. They are lighter, but I've heard they aren't great for band mixes or jazz. They have a really nice, shimmery treble and boomy bass, which sounds good in a shop or youtube demo, but the midrange kinda suffers. We'll see...
    A huge proportion of guitar-related (including amps) ad budgets (and R&D emphasis) goes to rockers. Jazzers are outnumbered greatly. And, of course, a great many of us here at JGO have our guilty pasts, as well.

  18. #67

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    To be fair, Fender produces TWO George Benson signature models.

  19. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by IMadeYouReadThis
    This was my thought. I was pretty excited when I saw the Pro Reverb, because I expected it to be a Princeton/Deluxe type thing with more headroom. It sounds to me like it's being marketed to rockers, though. I found this on Sweetwater: "Fender also tweaked the amp's negative feedback to give it increased touch sensitivity, and it also starts to overdrive faster."

    I'm not too sure about those Neo speakers either. They are lighter, but I've heard they aren't great for band mixes or jazz. They have a really nice, shimmery treble and boomy bass, which sounds good in a shop or youtube demo, but the midrange kinda suffers. We'll see...
    The negative feedback is easily restored to Blackface specs, it’s just replacing one resistor. Easy peasy, even on the PCBs these amps have.

    I have Jensen NEO 12-100 speakers in my Fender Blues Deluxe and in my Session BluesBaby 22. I like them very much: very big but even sounding speakers. Bass is not boomy at all. I thing they are perfect in band mixes for jazz, because the have a nice complex voice in the mid-frequencies area. The only criticism could be they sound too civilised for some tastes. But it’s one of my favourite speakers!

  20. #69

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    I must admit that I'm looking forward to the vibro champ. Gonna try it and if it sounds good .. I'm going to buy it .. Plain and simple

  21. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    I must admit that I'm looking forward to the vibro champ. Gonna try it and if it sounds good .. I'm going to buy it .. Plain and simple
    Don’t forget it’s only a 5 watt amp... great for playing at home (love my 5F1 for that!) and maybe small and quiet gigs. But if you’re cool with that: go for it!

  22. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by citizenk74
    A huge proportion of guitar-related (including amps) ad budgets (and R&D emphasis) goes to rockers. Jazzers are outnumbered greatly. And, of course, a great many of us here at JGO have our guilty pasts, as well.
    The good thing is: many amps that rock at high gain volume-levels are great clean jazz amps at normal civilised volume levels! Some very cool new amps coming from Fender. (which is why we don’t really need amps for jazzers..... Some very cool new amps coming from Fender.)

  23. #72

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    Also lower gain tube in V1? 5751.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Little Jay
    The new Pro Reverb has the advantage of the 2x6L6 output stage over the Deluxe Reverb and should - in theory - stay clean longer when things get louder (depends on speaker efficiency and OT-size as well, I know), which could be desirable for guitarist gigging with hammond players or playing in big bands for example.

  24. #73

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    Next best thing, 2020 Fender Deluxe reverb Tonemaster amp mint/excellent. And I happen to have one for sale on the Gear Page and local Craigslist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    They should reissue Jazzmaster.

    Some very cool new amps coming from Fender.-fender-ultralight-jazzmaster-57331-jpg

  25. #74

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    Funny, the Pro Reverb is the one silverface amp you can still get for cheap

  26. #75

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    I had the Vibrolux version of this "drip edge" re-issue series -- it was the worst amp I have ever owned. I literally could not put it back in the box to be returned fast enough. As another member posted above, this series is not an homage to an original '68 circuit, it is a newer more modern circuit that sounds little like the amps they resemble.

    The Vibro champ seems like a Princeton wannabe -- if I was shopping that amp, I would get a 12" Princeton for the same money and smile with every chord played.

    -Chris

  27. #76

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    The vibro champ sounds attractive and it‘s price is okay. Digital reverb info is safe?
    I‘m afraid I wouldn‘t like the stock Celestion speaker...anyway. Interesting amp, but don’t forget you‘ll get a vintage vibro champ for the same or a bit more cash.

  28. #77

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    Hmmm... I see the have plywood cabinets. Could have made them a little lighter with pine.

  29. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by h1pst3r88
    I had the Vibrolux version of this "drip edge" re-issue series -- it was the worst amp I have ever owned. I literally could not put it back in the box to be returned fast enough. As another member posted above, this series is not an homage to an original '68 circuit, it is a newer more modern circuit that sounds little like the amps they resemble.

    The Vibro champ seems like a Princeton wannabe -- if I was shopping that amp, I would get a 12" Princeton for the same money and smile with every chord played.

    -Chris
    Nothing beats the tonal dynamic of a five watter and 9 of 10 guitarists choose a champ or vibro champ for everything but as a „princeton wannabe“. The Princeton reissues sound not really like Princetons, by the way. I‘ve returned my 65 PRRI after 2 days.

  30. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
    Hmmm... I see the have plywood cabinets. Could have made them a little lighter with pine.
    I wonder about that 30 lbs weight on the Pro. I have no idea how you make a 40w tube amp with a plywood cab at 30 lbs. Either the weight is a typo, the cab material is a typo, or that neo speaker isn't the only thing with a weight reduction. I could be wrong (I tend to be).

  31. #80

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    It's certainly possible, i had an Alessandro Rottweiler 1x12 combo that was similar, 40 watts and around 30lbs. Sounded great.

  32. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by IMadeYouReadThis
    I wonder about that 30 lbs weight on the Pro. I have no idea how you make a 40w tube amp with a plywood cab at 30 lbs. Either the weight is a typo, the cab material is a typo, or that neo speaker isn't the only thing with a weight reduction. I could be wrong (I tend to be).
    The referenced article is wrong about the weight. Fender says it weighs 35 lbs.

    Danny W.

  33. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by h1pst3r88
    I had the Vibrolux version of this "drip edge" re-issue series -- it was the worst amp I have ever owned. I literally could not put it back in the box to be returned fast enough. As another member posted above, this series is not an homage to an original '68 circuit, it is a newer more modern circuit that sounds little like the amps they resemble.
    (...)
    Can You elaborate in what way it was ’worst amp You have ever owned’?

  34. #83

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    I bought a 2017 Fender Princeton reverb 68 custom used. Intitally the seller was asking $699. But eventually I got it down to $625. With shipping $665. No taxes. But what I didnt know was the stock tubes were upgraded to Tung Sols. A complete set runs about $144. Also, the rectifier and V2 tubes were upgraded to Gold Lions. Each costing $40.

    The base price at $625 was the lowest I have seen. New $899. I was going to upgrade the tubes to JJs. But I was pleasantly surprised with the higher grade tubes. Saved me at lease $140. $665 with shipping minus $140 = $525. Very happy with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by wintermoon
    I don't use modern Fenders but if I were interested in one of these I'd wait awhile til a used came up for sale and save.30%.

  35. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by Herbie
    Can You elaborate in what way it was ’worst amp You have ever owned’?
    As context, my amps before the '68 Vibrolux were a '65 DRRI, a SamAmp boutique AB763 circuit 1x15, and my present '63 Vibroverb re-issue which is maybe my favorite amp of all time... and there have been several vintage Princetons, Princeton Reverbs, Champs and Vibro champs along the way. All of these amps are pretty much exemplars of the classic Fender clean tones, each in there own specific way.

    The '68 Virbolux had nothing in common with those other amps, and that was intentional on this series -- they wanted a grittier tone and one that broke up easier. I simply could not get a pristine Fender clean tone from that amp.

    I recall being at Smoke in Manhattan 12 years ago and seeing a trio killing it (as I sat next to Lou Donaldson) and listening to the guitar player's silver-face Vibrolux fill the room with some of the best guitar tones. Oh, how I wanted that '68 re-issue to sound like that. Instead it sounded like a newly landed meteorite sizzling on my front steps.

    Anyone's mileage may vary, but the tone of the '68 Vibrolux re-issue to my ears was like walking over glass.

  36. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildcat
    I bought a 2017 Fender Princeton reverb 68 custom used. Intitally the seller was asking $699. But eventually I got it down to $625. With shipping $665. No taxes. But what I didnt know was the stock tubes were upgraded to Tung Sols. A complete set runs about $144. Also, the rectifier and V2 tubes were upgraded to Gold Lions. Each costing $40.

    The base price at $625 was the lowest I have seen. New $899. I was going to upgrade the tubes to JJs. But I was pleasantly surprised with the higher grade tubes. Saved me at lease $140. $665 with shipping minus $140 = $525. Very happy with that.
    What do you think of the '68 Princeton as a jazz amp? Supposedly they are warmer than the '65 PRRI, but I've steered clear because they break up early. I've read quite a few threads here with people recommending the '65 and a speaker swap, which will run about $300 more than the '68 new.

  37. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by h1pst3r88
    As context, my amps before the '68 Vibrolux were a '65 DRRI, a SamAmp boutique AB763 circuit 1x15, and my present '63 Vibroverb re-issue which is maybe my favorite amp of all time... and there have been several vintage Princetons, Princeton Reverbs, Champs and Vibro champs along the way. All of these amps are pretty much exemplars of the classic Fender clean tones, each in there own specific way.

    The '68 Virbolux had nothing in common with those other amps, and that was intentional on this series -- they wanted a grittier tone and one that broke up easier. I simply could not get a pristine Fender clean tone from that amp.

    I recall being at Smoke in Manhattan 12 years ago and seeing a trio killing it (as I sat next to Lou Donaldson) and listening to the guitar player's silver-face Vibrolux fill the room with some of the best guitar tones. Oh, how I wanted that '68 re-issue to sound like that. Instead it sounded like a newly landed meteorite sizzling on my front steps.
    Anyone's mileage may vary, but the tone of the '68 Vibrolux re-issue to my ears was like walking over glass.
    Thanks, this was very enlighting story!

  38. #87

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    I own both the 2020 Princeton 65' reissue and 2017 68' custom. There are some clear differences I read about before buying and I am exploring now. Note: the 68' is NOT a reissue. It uses transformers from the time period, but also makes custom/modern mods very unquie to it.. (BTW The 65' PRRI is the Sweetwater special with 12" Canibus Rex speaker. Bought it used from a forum member.)

    The breakup issue is something I have dealt with before. The best way I found is to exchange the V1 preamp to a lower gain tube. For example 12Ax7 to 5751 at 30% lower gain. I did this for both amps. Also the stock speaker Celestion 10V30 is rock oriented. I replaced it with a high quality Weber 10F150, (50 watt speaker for more headroom.) Price $103.

    Beyond this you can get into some mods with circuitry for the 68' custom. IMHO those do certain things to make it sound more like the 65' reissue.

    I am very satisfied with the 68' and the tone with it. Warmer, darker, yes. But the tone pots can change that. Really I set the Treble, bass and reverb at the same setting as on the 65' reissue. When I bought the 68 custom the previous owner upgraded the tube from stock to high grade Tung Sols. To coin a phase. "I have warmed up to the 68' Fender Custom Princeton reverb."

    In summary, if I had to buy either, it would be the stock Sweetwater PRRI Special/limit edition as it is the best value for your money and tone wise. Looks good with the tweed tolex.


    Quote Originally Posted by IMadeYouReadThis
    What do you think of the '68 Princeton as a jazz amp? Supposedly they are warmer than the '65 PRRI, but I've steered clear because they break up early. I've read quite a few threads here with people recommending the '65 and a speaker swap, which will run about $300 more than the '68 new.

  39. #88

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    Vibrochamp with a 10 inch speaker and reverb...yes please!