Question on CITES permit to ship internationally.

[MAJackson]

I found a guitar at RetroFret in Brooklyn that I'd like to buy but the shop has informed me that they don't ship internationally:

"Unfortunately, due to the labor, cost, and time of applying for a CITES permit (especially for our very small staff), as well as the heightened restrictions on Brazilian rosewood that were put into place towards the end of 2019, we are not currently offering international sales of CITES-protected guitars".

Their suggestion is for them to ship it to one of my relatives in the US, who would then ship it to me in Europe. I've never filled out the paperwork for a CITES permit so my question to the forum is how much of a headache is it? Would I be better off just waiting to find the same make and model at a store that does ship internationally?

[JSanta]

I don't know of any shops that would be willing to undertake that effort to get the permits to ship it internationally. Other rosewoods are not an issue. What kind of guitar are you looking at?

Rosewood Musical Instruments Exempted from Requiring CITES Permits

"On August 28, 2019, in Geneva, Switzerland, the Conference of the Parties (CoP) to the International Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species (CITES) voted to exempt finished musical instruments, parts and accessories made with rosewood from requiring CITES permits. The vote, taken during a two-week CITES conference (CoP18), amended the original CITES listing made in 2016, which had mandated permits for commercial trade of Dalbergia rosewood products in any shape or form. The new exemption will take effect 90 days following the August vote — November 26, 2019. The exemption does not pertain to Brazilian rosewood (Dalbergia nigra), which was listed separately in 1992 on the much stricter CITES Appendix I.
Manufacturers will still be required to secure all necessary permits for rosewood material used in making instruments — a policy they have always supported — but they will now be free, for example, to ship finished musical instruments to stores around the world without permits. Further, owners of instruments made with rosewood components will once again be able to ship an instrument internationally for service, or to sell, without needing a permit. And traveling internationally with a musical instrument made with rosewood will now be easier. The new CITES exemption ends what has been a tumultuous three-year period for both the musical instrument community and the Convention itself."

[ThatRhythmMan]

In the US it can be fairly easy or impossible, depending on who you get at the department of fish and wildlife. I tried to get a permit and the person I got demanded absolutely impossible things. It was just money flushed down the toilet for me. I’ve heard of others just skating on through though.

[MAJackson]

What kind of guitar are you looking at?

Nothing fancy. An early 1950s Harmony H44.

[Bill Eisele]

I recently tried to buy a beautiful single luthier acoustic flat top guitar with BRW back and sides at a shop in Canada (I live in the US) and the folks at the shop wouldn't sell it to me. I then contacted the US Fish and Wildlife Service and asked them how I could have the guitar imported into the US. They provided me with the appropriate requirements that have to be fulfilled, so in theory, it could have been done. However, I then found this at Fretboard Journal and came to realize that even if you have fulfilled all of the requirements you could still have your guitar seized on either side of the border with no recourse: A Guitar Lover’s Guide to the CITES Conservation Treaty | Fretboard Journal. So, I came to understand the shops refusal to sell the guitar to me. It's just too arbitrary depending on who you or your guitar encounters at the border on either side. Maybe you will succeed and maybe you won't and you will then be out whatever you spent on the guitar and hopefully no fines or further penalties.

[MAJackson]

I don't know of any shops that would be willing to undertake that effort to get the permits to ship it internationally.

There are guitar shops in the US and Canada that ship to Europe. It's just a pity that CITES puts many others off from doing so.

[neatomic]

Nothing fancy. An early 1950s Harmony H44.

too bad...super cool guitar...





cheers

[MAJackson]

They're fun little guitars. Surprisingly versatile and great for recording. I'll figure out a way to make it work. I was hoping for a copper one, but I've just found one in black from a shop that ships internationally.

[docsteve]

Nothing fancy. An early 1950s Harmony H44.

What makes you think that the fretboard is Brazilian rosewood? I‘m not sure if other rosewoods are CITES protected.


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[MAJackson]

What makes you think that the fretboard is Brazilian rosewood?

Simply because that's what the seller told me. I've seen other H44's advertised as such. That being said I think it's hard to say with the old catalog guitars. One luthier I know told me that Harmony, Kay, etc. would use stained fruit woods in place of more expensive rosewood, especially when their supply got low or it wasn't one of their higher end models. What's the best way to tell?

[doc w]

Simply because that's what the seller told me. I've seen other H44's advertised as such. That being said I think it's hard to say with the old catalog guitars. One luthier I know told me that Harmony, Kay, etc. would use stained fruit woods in place of more expensive rosewood, especially when their supply got low or it wasn't one of their higher end models. What's the best way to tell?

I went through the CITES torture just last year (Fall of 2020). I suggest that you make sure that the fretboard is Brazilian rosewood. Contact a reputable dealer who specializes in such guitars. If it is NOT Brazilian rosewood, it makes a huge difference and you will avoid a lot of paperwork.

[doc w]

I found a guitar at RetroFret in Brooklyn that I'd like to buy but the shop has informed me that they don't ship internationally:

"Unfortunately, due to the labor, cost, and time of applying for a CITES permit (especially for our very small staff), as well as the heightened restrictions on Brazilian rosewood that were put into place towards the end of 2019, we are not currently offering international sales of CITES-protected guitars".

Their suggestion is for them to ship it to one of my relatives in the US, who would then ship it to me in Europe. I've never filled out the paperwork for a CITES permit so my question to the forum is how much of a headache is it? Would I be better off just waiting to find the same make and model at a store that does ship internationally?

I think that the idea of shipping it to an American relative who would then ship it to you is a good idea, but check first with CITES. I think you would need the paperwork regardless (if it is truly Brazilian rosewood).