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If many (not all, cool your jets) think the L-5ces is the pinnacle of electric Jazz guitars and also using the theory "bigger is better" than the Super 400ces must be out of this world!
Anyway, with that said I was wondering who owns one and what their thoughts are on:
* Tone: compared to the L-5ces and/or others, how much difference does the 18 inch body make in general?
* Playability: this is where my real curiosity lies. If you are an owner, how do you find it? How tall are you and what is your build? I love Kenny Burrell and he's a tall drink of water, so he rides it well.
Look forward to hearing your thoughts as always!
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12-28-2020 10:25 PM
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I used to own a number of very nice S400s. If I were a half a foot taller that's what I would play, but I could only play one for a half-hour before my right arm went totally numb. I always thought they sounded great.
Danny W.
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I prefer a Super 400 in the CES form to an L-5, but it’s really mainly about how comfortable the size is for me. I’m 6’4” with an armspan of 6’8”, so I’m kind of out on the far end of the spectrum.
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Wow, the 6'8" wing span is something. I know most peoples wingspan almost identically equals their height. I'm 5'11 with the same span. I fear the Super 400 maybe too much woman for me. Haha
Originally Posted by ThatRhythmMan
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Every guitar regardless of model is different but in general a Super 400 is that much bigger sounding than it's little brother the L-5. Playability has little to do w a particular model guitar unless you prefer a certain size/body shape. Supers are a bit much for many to hold/play comfortably, but I'm pretty tall, they suit me fine.
An old L-5 has been my main working guitar for almost 30 yrs, it's a little more gig friendly than a Super in terms of feedback resistance, but I mostly use Supers at home.
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OK, I have the following carved Gibson electric archtops:
1996 L-5 WESMO
2003 L-5 CES
1997 Super 400 CES
I am a bit under 6 Feet (used to be 6'1" in my younger days) and wear shirts with a 35 inch sleeve length.
All three guitars are equally comfortable for me (No problem doing a long gig with the Super 400). Tone is pretty similar (The Wesmo is the brightest, the Super 400 CES is the darkest) The two pickup guitars are more feedback resistant then the Wesmo and the L-5 CES is marginally more feedback resistant than the Super 400 CES.
Any one of these three could be my only archtop and I would feel lucky. HTH
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I own a Super 400 copy, not a real one, so I won't comment on tone. As for size, I can play it for awhile, but only with it tilted back 45 degrees or so. I can't play it while keeping it vertical. I used to be 5' 10", but I've lost a couple of inches over the past decade or two. The real problem for me is the depth, not the width of the bout. I have a 17" non-cutaway guitar on order, but it's going to be only 2.75" in depth, not the 3.5" of the Super.
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Kenny Burrell asked Heritage to build his signature model based on a Super 400, but with a slightly thinner depth of 3.125" and a unique Florentine cutaway. It too has an 18" lower bout like the Super 400.
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I have a 2009 Super 400 and I am about 5'11'' tall. I won't lie, the body size is big but is doable for me. It's about as big as I can handle and still be comfortable. I also have an L5 Wesmo and if I am being honest, the 17" body size is slightly more comfortable, perhaps a Super V would be my ultimate guitar.
That said, the size is still doable and the tone is thick and syrupy. There's just nothing like a Super 400. I have never done an A/B comparison with it and a two pickup L5 CES but I would think the tone difference would be marginal. I did do some sound comparisons between the Super and my Wesmo and though there wasn't a huge difference, the Super is bit darker.
I think if one really wants a Super 400, only the real article will do. It took me time to find one in my budget but was worth the wait. Nothing like walking up on stage with one of those bad boys
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If the desire is there, it can work.
18" guitars may be too big if you keep your hip flexed in a standard chair. But on a stool or standing, most find the fit works.
Back when I was in high school I can't remember anyone complaining about the size of a L-5, only the feedback issue. The guys in the 1930s played big guitars in the band, a few with 19" guitars.
The drawbacks of the Super 400 outweigh that marvelous big acoustic sound for most. The are expensive and bulky. Amplified, you get little ultimate sound benefit. But they are a wonder to hold and to admire.
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Hi, anyone know where we should measure the guitar to see if it's an L5 or a Super 400 body ?
I have a qualitative archtop copy made in France by Lâg, but i don't know if it's an L5 or Super 400 clone.
Here's few picutres
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Measure across the widest area of the large lower bout, near the bottom of the f-holes. That looks like 17" probably, but I can't say definitely. Originally Posted by Madansi
guitar lower bout - Google Search
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Ok my long answer is I have played numerous super 400's over the years and have had them in my possession for periods of time. However my own personal guitars that I have bought have all been acoustic archtops with a floater. I prefer an 18 inch guitar they simply feel better to hold. I am about 6' 1 and for fun I measured my wingspan never had done that and it was 6' 2.5". I have no problems with the bigger box. Now the real.
I finally about 15 months ago bought 2005 Sunburst Super 400ces Hutchins signed. To say that I am thrilled is a gross understatement. I mentioned this when I got the guitar but the QC on it is perfect. It was set up perfect the neck nice and even, fret work was second to none. Every bit as good as any handmade luthier guitar I have played. Now the big killer is the sound. I am floored by the huge round sound that this gets that is nothing quite like a floating pickup guitar. I think it has to do with of course the pickups which are great and the interaction of the top and pickup being together as opposed to floating. I played this guitar for at least 2 months straight after I got it and almost never pick up the other guitars. Well or course that finally ended because I like acoustic sound too. But I just cannot say enough about the big round sound that this guitar produces. It is a bit different that an L5 and I believe body size is the only real difference.
I also find this guitar sits in my lap really nicely but feels big. My 1949 D'angelico NY is actually 18 1/4 inches wide so slightly wider but not has thick as the super 400. The Super400 feels bigger in my lap due to the depth. Both guitars are quite comfortable for me. I owned a 19 inch D'angelico NY from 1953 and it did feel much bigger but I had no trouble with it either. To be exact it was 18 3/4 inches wide a huge guitar full depth.
I have played a lot of L5s and owned an acoustic L5c at one time. The L5 does feel smaller but really not so sure about which is better just whatever you like. Both are comfortable. The only thing I could say about my 400ces is that acoustically it sounds fine but it is not really and acoustic archtop, it cannot produce the power of the D'a by any stretch. However plugged in that is the tone. It just really shows how no guitar can have it all as such................good to have a few to pick from when need right?
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Hi, curious to what you think of that guitar as I ran into the floating pickup version of it at a very good price, but not able to see in person. What is the neck like? Build quality? Originally Posted by Madansi
Hi, anyone know where we should measure the guitar to see if it's an L5 or a Super 400 body ?
I have a qualitative archtop copy made in France by Lâg, but i don't know if it's an L5 or Super 400 clone.
Here's few picutres
Hate to derail my own thread
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Hi ! Originally Posted by DMgolf66
Hi, curious to what you think of that guitar as I ran into the floating pickup version of it at a very good price, but not able to see in person. What is the neck like? Build quality?
Hate to derail my own thread
You asked to the right person, i'm a big fan of French made lag ( i own 4 of them ). They are usually cheap on used market, but very nice quality.
Handcraft in my model is really great. I compared to high end Eastman and quality is very similar. Neck is pretty thin ( i'd say it's like a Fender's modern C ).
Only "bad" point was pickups, the Duncan weren't of my taste, i changed them for Pete Biltoft pickups. But the floating version has a nice Benedetti
At which price is the floating version you want to buy ? ( in PM if you prefer. )
If you could send me some pictures of the model you're after, i like to see these unusual models ( Lâg says that 12 floating and 12 dual humbuckers only were produced ).
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I'm about 6' 2". The 18" of the Super 400 isn't a problem for me. I like 18" guitars because they sit up in my lap. I'm less inclined to hunch over the guitar. I've been playing some 18" guitars with only a 3" depth lately and that extra 3/8" of an inch on a Gibson archtop is noticeable. Not enough to deter me from playing one, but I think it's the depth of the rims I feel more than whether it's 17" or 18". As for sound, my Super 400 CES sounds fabulous. Just a little more of everything than an L5 CES. Like comparing a 72 keys piano to an 88 keys piano. But I still love L5's, too!
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I would add that my Super 400 CES weighs about a pound more than my L-5CES. She is 8 pounds 10 ounces. For some players, that could be a deal killer. Originally Posted by D'Aquisto Fan
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Hi!
as the german lockdown prohibits Gigs and makes rehearsals nearly impossible we did a little stay home video for fans and friends of our band. See and listen the link below. I am playing my 1969 super 400. Playing it with strap makes it as comfotable to me as playing on my l5 or a similar 17 inch box. Soundwise I feel my super 400 a little bit more lively and even sounding over all strings and the entire range of the guitar/fretboard.
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That big box is my note-cannon when I need a BIG, DEEP and FAT tone, has been since 1996 or so when I got my first one. I'm 6'2" so the size has never been an issue, neither has the weight - it IS a bit heavier than an electric L5 or similar guitars but that added heft (more wood ...) is a boon re the feedback threshold : all my electric Super's have never given me much problems on loud stages except one time when I didn't bring my own amp (usually my Evans RE200, 1x10" combo) and had to wrestle with a new Twin. The two 12" speakers move a LOT of of air and it was difficult to find a manageable spot on the bandstand... I've owned 2 L-5 CES models prior to the Super and for me the Super is IT when I play with a louder/larger group. As for the different versions of that model through the years I'd look for a mid to late 60's version : many players shy away from the narrow-ish nut because they think it's too small for their fingers but I never found this to be a hindrance (neither has Kenny and his hands are larger than mine...). The prices for these guitars are not higher than those for the later 70's or 80's models.
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Originally Posted by mollsubdominante
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I played an 18" Yamaha CJ818 (actually two, but that's another story) with no trouble forty years ago. Since then, I've shrunk and I'm not sure I could handle a Super 400 but for the third nicest tailpiece in the land and that sweet, deep 'n' dark, chocolaty tone, I think maybe I could give it a shot....
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Those CJ818s had a 16 5/8" lower bout.....so a Super 400 would feel much bigger. Originally Posted by citizenk74
I played an 18" Yamaha CJ818 (actually two, but that's another story) with no trouble forty years ago. Since then, I've shrunk and I'm not sure I could handle a Super 400 but for the third nicest tailpiece in the land and that sweet, deep 'n' dark, chocolaty tone, I think maybe I could give it a shot....
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Strongly disagree--Even when I was taller I found them too tiring to play for long, sitting, standing or on a stool. Since I'm now even smaller, even 17" guitars have become problematic for me. Easier to play smaller guitars! Note that the 16" L-5 was very popular during the big-band era, and the sweeter-sounding S400 was often derided as "the silent giant." Originally Posted by Marty Grass
But since this a Super 400 thread, some of the ones I've been lucky enough to own:
Danny W.
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I'd love to play some of crappy stuff on one of those CES Supers! Awfully impressive looking. Originally Posted by Danny W.
Strongly disagree--Even when I was taller I found them too tiring to play for long, sitting, standing or on a stool. Since I'm now even smaller, even 17" guitars have become problematic for me. Easier to play smaller guitars! Note that the 16" L-5 was very popular during the big-band era, and the sweeter-sounding S400 was often derided as "the silent giant."
But since this a Super 400 thread, some of the ones I've been lucky enough to own:
Danny W.
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Danny I've never been so floored by a guitar that I'd seen at a guitar show like I was the time I saw a Western Sky. I'd never seen one, never heard of them , nothing. Originally Posted by Danny W.
Strongly disagree--Even when I was taller I found them too tiring to play for long, sitting, standing or on a stool. Since I'm now even smaller, even 17" guitars have become problematic for me. Easier to play smaller guitars! Note that the 16" L-5 was very popular during the big-band era, and the sweeter-sounding S400 was often derided as "the silent giant."
But since this a Super 400 thread, some of the ones I've been lucky enough to own:
Danny W.
I've owned L-7's, L-4's, one Wesmo, and now a Campellone, but that fingerboard on that Western Sky just seemed to have been the absolute best I've ever played.
Thanks as always for your photo's - glad to have the chance to look ( and drool ) at those !
Dennis
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