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Bill,
I share the same sentiments as the other guys. This is an unfortunate experience and not uncommon when it gets cold and boxes are mis-handled. The longer the cold exposure, along with numerous shipping hand offs - just increases this potential.
The good news is that its easily repairable as previously noted. Chris Mirabella just took care of a similar finish issue on a friends guitar - and the finish checking was made invisible. The question you have to ask yourself - is it worth doing the repair, since the loss cost of the repair may not be worth the added value over the current depreciated value.
You may want to get some estimates in the meantime so you have some facts when trying to arrive at a settlement with Reverb.
Best of luck.....and try not to worry too much - just learn from the experience.
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12-23-2020 08:07 PM
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sorry to hear this. like the deacon said, finish checking doesn't bother me, but you really don't want it on a 3 yr old guitar if you can help it, especially one that you have to sell as some people are really picky about things like that. you have to be very specific in giving instructions to a seller in how to pack a guitar safely--this guy should have known how to send it back as it was sent to him properly.
on a side note I did a trade w/ a pretty prominent dealer for an old L-5 last week and it came w/the bridge still on it and tuned up to pitch. I assumed someone like them would know how to pack but we all know about that 'assume' word
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Yes, I can definitely see why you freaked out, Steve. We have seen quite a bit of this during since COVID. Sometimes they don't ring the doorbell even when signature is required. But, they always sign for us. No touching of their tablet and stylus to sign.
Originally Posted by steve burchfield
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Thanks, QAman! I had shipped the guitar via UPS 2 day air to the buyer thinking it would involve minimum handling given the cold weather and holiday rush of packages, but when the buyer decided to return the guitar Reverb insisted on sending it back UPS Ground at their expense. So, given that the buyer and his tech said nothing about the finish cracks I have to assume that the damage occurred during the return trip. Originally Posted by QAman
As long as it can be verified that there was no lasting structural damage I guess I can live with the cracks. I performed an internal inspection inside the body of the guitar today with an inspection light and mirror and couldn't find anything, but I wonder about stress at the neck/body joint and neck/headstock area. I will follow Deacon Marks advice to string up the guitar and play it hard to see if anything untoward happens. I am hoping that Reverb will come through with at least enough compensation to either sell the guitar with the cracks at a lowered price or with enough money to make the cracks disappear. But, I would disclose the repair anyway so there would be some depreciation reflected in the sale price of the guitar.
I do have certain luthiers who I trust for these kinds of repairs but one is in Kalamazoo and one is in Ventura. But, I am not going to send the guitar out for crack repair given my experience with the shipping. So, I will use my go to tech to get an estimate next week. He does good finish repair work.
And, I am past the worrying stage. Just trying to figure out how to get adequately compensated by Reverb, get the guitar repaired and properly set up, and then try to sell it locally. Thanks again for your support!
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Yeah, I got caught by surprise on this aspect, too. Was expecting a $500 value delivery about a month ago and met the UPS driver when he pulled up. He gave me the package and we chatted a bit and then I said, "oh, don't I need to sign?" and he said that UPS is not requiring a signature at all for a signature-required delivery. Seems a bit sketchy to me, especially in light of the fact that you usually pay more for signature-required, no? Originally Posted by steve burchfield
I happened to get the driver who actually brought the package to my door, but usually I don't. I've had expensive packages left by the roadside more than once...
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I think finish checking is fine with a vintage guitar but not on something this new as you say, wintermoon. I'm pretty picky myself, but take the age of the instrument into account when considering the grading used to describe it. I did send a link to Joe Vinikow's packing instructions to the erstwhile buyer and he was pretty diligent in following them. I think it was just a matter of something unusual happening during the return shipment. I was pretty careful in marking up the shipping box as well indicating no side loading and to have the box stand up instead of being laid on its side. But, we all know shippers don't follow those requests. That really is disappointing to hear about the L-5 shipping with the bridge on and the strings up to pitch. We all know these packages are treated roughly and it doesn't help when the dealer doesn't take all available precautions to minimize damage. I hope the L-5 didn't suffer from the dealers neglect. Originally Posted by wintermoon
Because UPS and FedEx use dimensional weight these days instead of the real weight of the package I wonder if it would be appropriate to reinforce the interior of the shipping box with additional cardboard, fiberboard, or something like it. But the main consideration would be to direct any force against the box away from the contents and towards the reinforcing inner structure. Not sure how easy that would be.
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I have a friend who was expecting a PRS guitar and Marshall amp from Sweetwater. He waited and waited and they didn't show up even though he received confirmation via email they had been delivered. Not only were they not delivered to his doorstep with signature required, but he found the boxes in the middle of the street in front of his house. So, in the middle of the road, not even left by the roadside! Originally Posted by starjasmine
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The man I did the recent deal with said his young daughter had to tell him about two guitar sized boxes being delivered across his street to a person who lived nearby. Good thing she knew what a guitar sized box looked like,the two were his being left at a wrong address,and were really for him.
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It is getting to a stage where selling your equipment yourself through ebay or Reverb is no longer worth the stress of dealing with flakey buyers. Consign it to a good responsible dealer. A dealer is usually able to fetch a better price than you can so it all works out the same at the end of the day minus the headaches. A good dealer weeds out the flakey buyers. I think they are worth their fees.
Operative words are good and responsible.
Too many jackasses out to take someone's prized guitar for a weekend's free strum and return it for "not as described". They can always find something. They even do it to dealers: I found this guy who bought a Les Paul Historic from a dealer under my nose. He timed the delivery for Friday so as to get an extra 48 hours of use-the dealer's 48-hour trial does not include Saturday and Sunday. Posted photos of it out on his lawn on a Les Paul forum, received all kinds of congratulatory slaps on the back...and then returned it to the dealer. I was in no mood to buy someone else's return at full price when he had exposed it on the web. It was an essentially 4-day old used guitar. I would have kept it, too, had I bought it first. Sick of such jackasses.
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Bill - you did everything correctly for sure. I will not buy through Reverb because they have too much control over the shipments. I recently cancelled an expensive Martin custom shop purchase because Reverb would not allow the merchant to use my Fed X account for overnight shipment. Originally Posted by Bill Eisele
UPS ground is the kiss of death for an Archtop - especially in the winter. Just explain to Reverb that your choice of sending it priority mail was to avoid this exact situation and was clearly the right choice. In my opinion, based on numerous reports of damage, no one should use UPS ground as a choice for shipping a guitar.
I use many carriers in my business and if you knew the amount of incoming damaged boxes we’ve received via UPS ground - you would understand my opinion of them.
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I agree with everything you say here, Steve, except that I’ve never had an issue shipping any way I prefer if I sell something on Reverb. I’d be interested in knowing the details. Do you think the seller just didn’t want to ship that way? Originally Posted by QAman
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That's what I thought about a year ago, when I consigned a guitar at a well-known local shop. Nothing happened, then lockdown killed the shop's foot trqffic. The shop promised to push it online, but got into a beef with Reverb and never even listed it. Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
After months of this, I took it back, put it on Reverb myself, and sold it in about a week for my full asking price minus fees that were less than the shop would have taken. I doubt I'll ever do consignment again.
John
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My thoughts about selling guitars today are as follows: Originally Posted by John A.
1. Try Craigslist. This is how we mostly sold stuff in the 60's through the 90's. A local classified ad. In days of yore, we had to pay mightily for this service, today it is free. Advantage: No shipping and no returns. Not to mention cash on delivery.
2. Advertise on forums like this one. One still has the shipping risk and the possibility of a beef with the buyer, but at least there are no fees.
3. EBay and Reverb. Fees and risk come with the territory. Do you feel lucky punk? Well do you? These big companies may screw you and they have very deep pockets. Be prepared to take your licks if things go awry.
4. Consignment. The best dealers are not usually close by so shipping is still a risk. Then there is the risk of the dealer going out of business or passing away and if that happens, getting your instrument back can be a major hassle or simply not possible. Add to that risk a 20-25 percent fee and you may be better off with EBay and Reverb.
I am sticking with 1 and 2. I would rather mark the instrument down for a local cash sale if possible and not have to look back. That said, I have instructed my wife that if I die with a bunch of guitars, her easiest choice would be to consign them one at a time to Gryphon (which she could drive to) and take her chances.
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I'm of the opinion that I just don't want to personally deal with prospective buyers anymore. Between this experience and the experiences a good friend has had on Reverb it's just not worth it. I think the word "flakey" is a good descriptor for the potential buyers my friend has dealt with. In my case, I believe it was a matter of the guitar drying out too much during shipping in the cold weather to prevent the action being raised to adequate level for playing for the buyer. Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
And, I agree that "not as described" is very open ended. Your story about the Les Paul Historic is a sad one, but not surprising given certain peoples' behavior.
My only problem with consigning is that the most active archtop consignment shops are all far away from me and now I am spooked about shipping. As I mentioned previously, I just consigned my Epiphone Elitist Byrdland and two steel guitars to my local dealer in Albuquerque. But the dealer told me that he hasn't sold an archtop guitar for quite a long time. He said the players and aficionados of these guitars are fading away.
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I think this is all excellent advice. I do have to say that I had the Eastman Pagelli on Craigslist for a while and it only attracted one potential buyer and after several visits to the house (somewhat scary during COVID) he decided not to purchase it. But I ended up with a new friend, so something good came out of it. I find that Craigslist usually attracts people looking within a certain price range and when you get above, say, $1000, you just don't get the inquiries. And, I have also had the experience of having folks come to the house and saying they want to buy the guitar but only came with certain amount of cash which is well below the asking price. In some cases I have accepted their offer because they were obviously students without much money or were very enthusiastic and were taking lessons from a teacher that I knew. I have also had inquiries from out of the area asking to have the guitar shipped, but I have declined. So far, that has been my experience with Craigslist. Originally Posted by Stringswinger
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I have a guitar for sale on reverb but I think I am not going to sell on Reverb they are an outfit that seems to not work well. They raised the price of selling and then put all sorts of rules in place. I would go back to ebay if needed. In my case the best way to sell a guitar is possible local even on facebook or craigslist. Require the buyer come and pick it and buy in in person. In fact some almost 17 years ago I sold a D'angelico New Yorker and not on any auction sight. My requirement was the person had to come to my place and pick up the guitar. They could go over it and inspect it and then buy it and be done. That seems a little much but for the given guitar completely within reason. Originally Posted by Bill Eisele
If a guitar is a real expensive guitar then it goes without saying the buyers generally have the money. They are not worried about shipping cost or the rest, only that the guitar is what they want. So for example a person has a 1940 Super 400 worth say $10000. Well then the buyer can just come and make a decision. I know myself as a buyer at some point I will go pick the guitar up. In my case I would like to find a nice D'angelico Style A or B for sale. If ever I find one I am going to get it in person. That eliminates issues.
The problem is that if a person has to sell the guitar in a hurry or is a needed sell for money. Then of course that changes things but hopefully avoid those situations.
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Craigslist seems to have run its course here (NYC). Some years back I had good experiences both buying and selling, but not recently (nothing I've listed sold; everything I tried to buy turned out to be junk). Buying and selling here are great for archtops (I've done both), but not really for other types of guitars. Originally Posted by Stringswinger
Maybe I am just lucky, but I've done well with Reverb, both buying and selling it. I avoided using for a long time for fear of the potential downsides, but I've been a lucky punk (ditto with eBay, though I haven't tried it in a long time). I wish this weren't the case since I'd rather deal locally, and I'd rather not have to act like a retailer, but the market has shifted to Reverb almost entirely.
John
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Chuck- the seller insisted on using Reverbs buyer protection shipping protocol - and he claimed it would not allow the use of my Fed X account when using buyer protection. I told him the instrument was insured through my Heritage Policy and that I didn’t need Reverbs protection. Originally Posted by ThatRhythmMan
The store claimed they’ve gotten burnt in the past and insisted I follow their policy.
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Ahhh...ok.....I thought it must be something like that. Reverb has long been all or nothing in that regard. Their shipping rates are often a little better than mine, so I asked about shipping without “Reverb protection”, even offering to provide documentation of my Heritage policy, but that was a no go for them. Their coverage rates are far too costly to make a slightly better shipping rate worthwhile.
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I recently sold 3 guitars in separate listings that I posted here and listed on Reverb. All 3 sold here. Great transactions and they went to people I “know” through the forum. I have been lucky with shipping. I’ve never had an issue.
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I goes without saying, bu the larger metro area you are near, the better luck you will probably have with craigslist. Also, you'll have better luck with items that have a wide appeal a/o demand. A Les Paul will get more traffic than a Pagelli. Originally Posted by Bill Eisele
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I have only sold on Craigslist and the forums. I’ve only bought on the forums, Reverb, and Elderly. 99.9% were very good experiences. Only felt ripped off once in a CL parking lot sale.
As someone implied earlier, the hidden benefit of selling via Craigslist is that you meet people who are aficionados, so at long last you can chat it up with an actual person about this guitar gear that just bores most people to death.
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My immediate reaction when seeing those lacquer checks is not damage or impact, it's just a risk of sending a guitar during the winter.
Even with FedEx air, you're talking about, according to their own documents, a range of anywhere between 35 to 85 degrees F depending on the location in the cargo hold.
I sent a Les Paul to Chicago, from NYC, during the dead of winter. The guitar arrived with very faint checking on the headstock. Luckily, I had taken very high resolution pics of the guitar during packing. The buyer was reasonable, just asked if there was checking when I sent it. When I said no, he was fine since he could reference the pictures to see I wasn't lying.
Reverb *should* be able to see your pics from before and know the guitar returned in different condition than when it was sent.
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Eh, I'd disagree. Craigslist in NYC is a bunch of flakes and tire kickers. I had a guy come try a guitar and say "I hope I can afford one of these some day". Originally Posted by Woody Sound
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After reading all these posts it seems the only no risk buy is to buy a archtop from QAman if and when he sells one.
Gryphon also has a Heritage policy and have told me that they pay up immediately on a damage claim. No questions asked. Unlike fully insuring with UPS which means a court battle.
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