-
I had listed my 2017 Eastman Pagelli PG-2 on Reverb not too long ago for $2300 and had a buyer soon after. The guitar had been meticulously packed both inside the case and inside the Reverb shipping box. I shipped it out via UPS Second Day Air with the Reverb Buyer Protection. I asked the buyer not to open the case until 24 hours elapsed after he had received it due to potential finish cracking. And, I believe he did so because I didn't hear anything from him about the guitar until the evening of the day after it arrived. He then reported to me that he was unable to raise the action to a height that was acceptable to him. So, I extended the evaluation time so he could get it to his tech to have it evaluated. What was odd about this was that several people had played the guitar just before it shipped and no one, including myself, noticed anything unusual about the action height. In fact, one person told me that he thought the action was a little high. The buyer was able to get the guitar to his tech the following day and the tech confirmed the issue with the action saying that it appeared to be a manufacturing defect with the neck angle. So, I asked the buyer to return the guitar to me and Reverb provided me with a return shipping label and the buyer was refunded his money. I received the guitar back a few days later and waited the 24 or so hours before I opened the case. To my dismay, I found finish cracks mostly on the top (see photos of some of the examples) and a few on the sides of the guitar, with nothing on the back. I then checked out the guitar for neck angle and action issues and couldn't find anything wrong with it. I then reported the finish cracks to Reverb and am now waiting to hear back from their resolution team. I took the guitar to my tech today and he thoroughly went over the guitar and could find nothing wrong with it except the finish cracks. He and my local Eastman dealer also weighed in with the Eastman representative on the phone and he couldn't offer any insight into the supposed neck angle defect. So, I'm not sure what the buyer or his tech saw that caused them to think the action couldn't be raised to an adequate playing level.
So, I now have this guitar that obviously can't be sold for my original asking price. And, I now need to prepare myself for what Reverb will come back with as their resolution to the issue. Of course, I would just like to send them the guitar at their expense and have them send me a check for $2300. I'm guessing that probably won't happen. Does anyone have any ideas as to how much these finish cracks would decrease the value of the guitar at the price I was asking? I really don't have an idea as I think these sorts of things are typically found on vintage guitars and are to be expected, but not for a guitar of recent manufacture. Thanks!
Attachment 77786Attachment 77785Attachment 77784Attachment 77783
-
12-22-2020 11:43 PM
-
The location of the cracks tells the story. There was top flex during the shipping, maybe tossing, maybe even a drop, but the top flexed on one side of the F hole and on the other side it's bound to the side. That resulted in a disparity of movement and the resulting "flex" couldn't be resisted by Eastman's finish, which is notoriously brittle.
Good news all around. It doesn't look like the wood fibre is broken, at least from the photos. And the change in action may very well be due to the extreme drop in humidity in these winter months. That finish breach on the upper bout by the neck block is unsettling; it belies at least an incidence of neck trauma. Sharp torque to the neck angle at the join. The top had a "thunk" and the neck and body moved (picture breaking a bundle of spaghetti) and there was undue stress. Did you immobilize the neck COMPLETELY in insulation top, back and all around when packing? Headstock above and below? Check the finish beneath the nut. Is there any tiny finish cracking there? I'm going to hope really hard there isn't since you didn't say.
While there may be a possibility of more serious top or bracing damage, that kind of shift does fall under expected changes for an Eastman, which uses a pretty high arch and they carve thinner than Gibson or many other archtops in an older carving tradition. That's one of the reasons Eastmans have that fast attack.
What can you do? Let it sit and humidify. Let it return to a more hospitable environment and see if it comes back. Very good chance it will.
As for the crazing and crackle, have a luthier apply a lacquer amalgamator to them. They will disappear. Stewmac makes the stuff and any Luthier worth his/her salt will have it on hand. It gets into the breach in the finish, dissolves the lac around the break and "melts" them together. Virtually undetectable and functionally good as new.
Obvious question regarding the action: Did your tech check your truss rod? Duh, Of Course, should be the answer.
Try that first. There's hope.Last edited by Jimmy blue note; 12-23-2020 at 06:44 AM.
-
Are the frets intact? I could imagine from the orientation of the cracks that the top has been under pressure, like something dropping or a child stepping on it. A blow on the strings leaves marks on upper frets. My sympathies!
-
Yeah a kid on a guitar would definitely do it, but it takes a lot less to craze finish like that. I worked at Ibanez and their finish is a lot tougher and still, it was not unusual to see this and worse, just from shipping. Even from a clumsy handling of a fork lift. You just never see it cuz those guitars would go straight to the seconds room and the public remains unknowing. And with a handbuilt lacquer finish, yeah that crazes just from being used as the lacquer cures, which actually takes quite a bit of time, maybe even within the window of ownership on a new guitar.
Originally Posted by Gitterbug
I don't preclude the worst case scenario but the truth is, shipping is hell on a hand built guitar. Shipping an Eastman in the Winter, yeah, the possibility of disaster goes way up. They sound great because they're built light. This year especially, shipping industry is a disaster, backups are unprecedented and manpower is way down.
Dangerous business when it comes to shipping a fragile piece of wood carved to move air with the touch of a finger...
-
I think buyer decided he did not want the guitar. Whatever happened in travel just looking is only cosmetic. Yes certainly not what it was but not exactly bad. These things don’t bother me on guitars. Unfortunately you had bad experience. The problem with buying guitar over internet. Hopefully you can resell get something back my guess reverb the buyer wins. Avoid them.
-
Was the bridge set unusually high? Photo of the bridge? Could there be shipping damage that dropped the top a bit. The stress cracks could support this theory.
-
There is always a risk in shipping guitars and I think Reverb will pin that risk on you, the seller. That means eating the shipping costs and having the paint damage repaired. I would get the paint repaired and resell it. Don't let it keep you up at night. Wait for Reverb's decision and move on.
-
That sucks, Bill. I never sell anything with a return policy although I had an EBay buyer show me some shipping damage on a $35 pick up cover once. I refunded him the purchase price. Your situation is nowhere analogous though. Hope you get compensated.
-
Guitar shipping is so risky. Winter ships really intensify that risk especially with nitrocellulose lacquer. Very sorry.
-
Wise words. I had a similar situtation on Ebay about a year ago. The buyer drove me crazy with issues that were not there when I shipped it. He fought me on waiting 24 hours as he thought that was not necessary. I paid him some compensation and moved on. It was my last transaction on Ebay as I deleted my account soon after. Life's too short to deal with this sort of aggravation.
Originally Posted by Stringswinger
-
Thank you for your reply, Jimmy blue note! You are very insightful. I believe that, yes, there was some kind of impact to the shipping box. There are some indentations and tears on the box where the top would have been located, although I don't know the orientation of the top to the box when shipped out and back. And, aside from the finish cracks in the top, there is also at least one on the side by the neck and as you mention, right by the nut on the side of the neck. I forgot to mention it and take a photo for here. The guitar was thoroughly immobilized in the case on the way out and back from the erstwhile buyer with packing paper per Joe Vinikow's packing instructions on his archtop.com website (the best and most thorough instructions I have seen on the web). The bridge was removed and stored in the accessory compartment during shipment to and from, as well. But the case top is not arched and has some flex to it. Plus, there is a substantial amount of padding on the underside of the case top that comes in contact with the top. So, any kind of shock to the box could be easily transmitted to the guitar top given the right circumstances. The case was immobilized in the box as well with cushioning above and below the case as well as an insert to hold the case in the middle of the box. Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note
So, the guitar is being humidified with Boveda 72% packs right now and I am awaiting a part so that the tech can do a setup on it before moving forward with anything else. Both the tech and I did check the truss rod adjustment and it is set with very minor relief. I am going to try to see if I can detect any brace cracks or cracks on the underside of the top with a borescope that I have on hand. I will report back with any findings. Thanks again!
-
What a nightmare. I hope that the lacquer amalgamator works well, Bill. Kudos to the collective knowledge of JGO...
-
Yes, the frets are intact. I had put several plies of packing paper between the slackened strings and the fingerboard. But there are some small marks on top of the upper frets, but not sure if that was from the impact. Thanks for your sympathies, Gitterbug! Originally Posted by Gitterbug
-
If you ship a guitar in the middle of winter you’re trusting that the buyer will do his diligence and not open the box for 24 hours. This idiot likely opened the box as soon as it arrived and experienced horror when those cracks began to appear. And now you the shipper has to cope with the outcome. Bottom line, you can’t trust buyers to do the right thing, especially in winter.
-
There is no doubt in my mind now that the guitar suffered a blow or some type of compression to the top. I just now looked inside with an inspection light and mirror and couldn't find any cracks that penetrated through the top. And the braces look intact to me. But, as you say, given the location of the finish cracks and the presence of those cracks on the side of the neck adjacent to the nut is evidence of the top being stressed and the neck and headstock being bent. A tough lesson learned for me! And, I had sent it out UPS 2 Day Air thinking it would be handled less but when it was shipped back, Reverb insisted on UPS Ground. Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note
-
Thanks Deacon Mark! It seems to me now, based on the feedback I'm getting here, that this is more than just crazing in the finish. There was some kind of compression or shock damage to the guitar which I don't think can assessed further. The cracks in the neck near the nut and one on the side near the neck joint would appear to indicate there was some kind of force that stressed the neck/body joint and the neck/headstock area. And that is aside from the compression of the top itself. I couldn't find any cracks on the underside of the top so that's good news. Originally Posted by deacon Mark
-
The bridge was removed during shipping both ways. And when I reinstalled it, the curvature of the bottom of the bridge exactly matched the curvature of the top. So, it seems that the compression of the top did not cause permanent sinking like I initially suspected when the buyer reported that he couldn't raise the action to a sufficient level. But good points to consider! Originally Posted by skiboyny
-
Spruce is amazingly stable unless conditions get really dry, but that is one reason they put finish on guitars besides looks. Finish protects the wood and its properties. Spruce can take quite a big hit and flex so if nothing is cracked or broken underneath my guess is it is completely fine. Glued on necks and the blocks don't moved they crack or get damaged the same way with braces. String the guitar up and play it very hard. In fact playing the guitar with force and power generally will show up any issues with buzzing in the top due to cracks of braces. Possible you have a claim with the shipper but they are a hard nut to crack.
-
Yes, there definitely is a huge risk with shipping guitars, Stringswinger. Especially with archtop guitars. I'm hoping that Reverb will do the right thing given that I purchased their buyer shipping protection and used one of their shipping boxes. And the guitar was very well packed inside the case and inside the shipping box in accordance with Joe Vinikow's packing instructions which are very comprehensive. I'll let everyone know what the Reverb response is once I hear back from them. It's taking a while and I'm starting to think they are dealing with a lot of guitars that have been damaged in shipping due to the holiday rush of getting packages out. Originally Posted by Stringswinger
-
I am waiting on Kevlar cord for cello tailpieces to firmly secure the tailpiece to the endpin. For some reason, the original cord was frayed when the guitar came back to me. I didn't have sturdy cord or cable on hand to reattach it but used some pushback wire to reattach the tailpiece to at least get the geometry of the guitar, etc., right to make the appropriate measurements. Unfortunately, pushback wire is waxed, so when I try to get the strings up to tension, the knot starts to pull out. But it will show up next Monday and it and the guitar will go back to my tech for setup and further evaluation. When my tech was on the phone with the Eastman representative, he asked about getting the exact replacement cord, but the rep said it would take four to six weeks to get it from China. Your idea to push the guitar by playing it hard is a great idea and I will do that once it is back in playing condition, hopefully by the end of next week. While UPS is the shipper, Reverb insured the guitar so I will see what they have to say. Will let everyone know. Thanks! Originally Posted by deacon Mark
-
Thanks, starjasmine! I'm trying to take it all in stride at this point. I obviously wasn't happy when I first opened the case and saw the finish cracks. And, now, it has become apparent from the feedback here that there definitely was some kind of shock or compression to the guitar in the case while being shipped. And, yes, the JGO forum collective knowledge is fantastic. Thank you all! I will let you know how this all proceeds. Originally Posted by starjasmine
-
Yes, 2bornot2bop, nothing would surprise me! Right now it looks like compression damage, but it's also possible that there could have been some crazing due to cold shock. I did ask the buyer both in my Reverb message and in a note in the shipping box that he not open the case until 24 hours after its arrival and I did the same when it was returned. Yes, this has definitely turned me off of shipping guitars any time of year unless they are plank guitars and even then it's doubtful. I have a really nice Epiphone Elitist Byrdland and two steel guitars that I wanted to sell, but decided to just consign them to my local dealer which happened yesterday. They will probably sit for quite a while. He said the last archtop guitar sale he had was about a year ago. And, he has a number of nice ones in his shop. Oh, well! Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
-
Every seller's nightmare. So sorry to read about your selling experience, Bill. I hope you are made whole.
-
Indeed it is Jabberwocky! Thanks for your support. Reverb just reached out to me about resolving the issue so will see what happens. I think it’s a tough lesson learned. If I do sell again on Reverb, which is doubtful, it will be on a “sold as is basis with no returns” and for local pickup only. If someone insists on having it shipped I will tell them to send me a prepaid shipping label and any damage negotiations will have to be worked out on their end with the shipper. Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
-
Something I did not know that is common today is that drivers are signing boxes that the person who is receiving them would normally sign because of Covid fears . This happened to me recently and I freaked out needlessly because my deal involves sending someone two trade guitars worth over 2K. first and when someone I had never heard of signed for them I thought I had been tricked. Later I found out its common for delivery driver to go ahead and sign rather than risk contact.What a Huge Relief! Originally Posted by Bill Eisele
Reply With Quote
Grant Green, What is This Thing
Yesterday, 01:59 PM in Ear Training, Transcribing & Reading