The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26
    If the issue is stiffness, presumably that can vary from one string to another.

    Is there a brand that is consistently less stiff?

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  3. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    If the issue is stiffness, presumably that can vary from one string to another.

    Is there a brand that is consistently less stiff?
    All the steel alloys have about the same modulus of elasticity. Monel (a nickel alloy) is about 10% lower, but I doubt that would make a noticeable difference in tuning stability.
    Modulus of Elasticity for Metals

    For a wound string, the winding contributes essentially nothing to stiffness, relative to the stiffness of the core, so if one brand of string used a lower gauge of core than another (with a higher gauge winding to compensate) it should be less stiff. Do any string brands list the core gauges? A unwound string would have a greater stiffness than wound, which is what the previous post was referring to.

  4. #28

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    Great info! However, aside from these considerations, those who play electric guitar with steel strings have been spoiled beyond belief with string stability. Classical guitarists tune constantly during performance, between performance--all the time. It's part of the deal when you play a quality, all wood instrument. But, it is my opinion that quality, all wood Jazz guitars are equally susceptible to many of the same tuning considerations as Classical guitars since they are more effected by humidity than say a solid body guitar or a laminate. For me, it's a small price to pay for a quality instrument.
    Play live . . . Marinero

  5. #29

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    Interesting discussion. Something not mentioned is the tuning machines themselves. Can they cause small amounts of detuning if they are or have become defective? I would understand a major malfunction but could something else be going on?

  6. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    Great info! However, aside from these considerations, those who play electric guitar with steel strings have been spoiled beyond belief with string stability. Classical guitarists tune constantly during performance, between performance--all the time. It's part of the deal when you play a quality, all wood instrument. But, it is my opinion that quality, all wood Jazz guitars are equally susceptible to many of the same tuning considerations as Classical guitars since they are more effected by humidity than say a solid body guitar or a laminate. For me, it's a small price to pay for a quality instrument.
    Play live . . . Marinero
    When your classical with nylon strings starts to stay in tune, it's time to change the strings !

  7. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave24309
    Interesting discussion. Something not mentioned is the tuning machines themselves. Can they cause small amounts of detuning if they are or have become defective? I would understand a major malfunction but could something else be going on?
    Tuners could obviously contribute if the tuning knobs had such little friction that they spontaneously slip under string tension, but I think only the worst tuners would have that problem.

    Slop in gears and shafts can cause tuning to slip, but I think most of that is eliminated by always making the final adjustment upward. It’s common practice when a string is sharp to drop below then bring it up to pitch. Of course a precision tuners and a well cut nut make it easier.

    Martin Taylor has a nice video about tuning that goes beyond the mechanical/mathematical approach to account for psychoacoustic effects.

  8. #32

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    Six wraps seems like a lot. I use the "half hitch" method as you called it, but only 2-3 wraps total.

    One thing to remember is that when a new string stretches, the part of the string wrapped around the post ALSO needs to stretch, but each successive wrap hinders the ability of the previous wraps to be able to stretch. My completely unscientific assumption is that normal tuning and pulling on a new string to get it to stabilize only really stretches the first wrap or maybe two. Beyond that, there's too much resistance to the pull from being wrapped around the post. BUT, over time, days, changes in temperature and humidity and playing a tiny bit of those first few wraps around the post also start to stretch a bit, but never really get to a point of stability.

    ...just my .02¢

  9. #33

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    There are many factors involved, some of which make a greater contribution than others. Yes, I think the number of wraps around the capstan, and the method of wrapping the string make some difference. If you loosen the string, the wraps loosen slightly, and may not return to tension immediately, or to the same tension as before. I do the under/back around method, and I think that helps with this, although I have no scientific proof. Having too many wraps, so that the string rides on the previous wrap, more or less, is less than ideal, IMO. This acts to make the capstan diameter effectively larger, and also allows the string to move the wraps slightly over time. I tend to put somewhere around three wraps, but I'm not religious about it. I do try to keep the wraps up on the capstan and not have the string all the way to the bottom. This is easier on the treble strings, a little more care is needed for the E. I think most tuners work well enough, but the gear ratio does affect the ease of tuning. It's easier with a higher gear ratio, because small movements of the tuner have less effect, so it's easier to find the exact tension to put the string in tune. Most of these seem to have marginal effects, though. IME pulling on the string before and after it is at pitch helps more than most other things I've tried. This is all anecdotal, from years of tuning, not something I've actually analyzed, and I would be happy to be proved wrong. I'm always trying to learn something new.

  10. #34

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    The chosen stringing method affects string break angle at the nut, so does effective tuner peg height (that's the main reasons why tuners sometimes make a difference). Anyone who's owned a Fender Strat knows that string trees can make it or break it, that string trees are different and why staggered tuners are available as an option. We can't ignore what happens behind the front edge of the nut. Therefore re-stringing must be systematic, to maintain integrity of the break angles.

    Here's the stringing method I prefer, presented by tech Bill Baker. It's fast and precise and allows strings to be removed and re-winded without fuss. No need to tie the strings.

  11. #35

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    I don't see how the stringing method affects the break angle. You can wrap the string down to any level with any method, and that's what sets the break angle. There are multiple ways to do the job, and they all work if there are enough wraps. Judging where to start the wraps is the hardest part, no matter which method is used, and it's slightly different for different guitars, with different headstocks. Once that length is determined, it's all easy enough.

  12. #36

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    ...2, 3 or 6 wraps makes a difference depending on the gauge. If one day I use 6 wraps for the D-string and 2 wraps for the high E and then the other way around next time I replace strings, there will be problems. If I'm systematic, like Bill Baker cutting strings to lengths 3 fingers past the tuner, then I like the nut slots to be filed for the corresponding string break angle, simple as that.

  13. #37

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    Well, yeah, that's pretty much what I said. You choose the number of wraps to get the angle you want. That generally means more wraps on the skinny strings and fewer on the fat ones. That's obvious. You just need to tailor the length past the nut for the guitar. Three fingers may be fine on a Strat but not quite perfect on a Gibson. And some fingers are thicker than others. It just takes a few tries to get the best length for the guitar. Then you can consistently get the number of wraps you prefer.

  14. #38

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    Yes, and we see clearly when somebody, like Bill, strives for a consistent stringing method to maintain many guitars on a regular basis;
    String break angle is not only affected by the headstock angle, but also the effective height of the tuner peg. The latter also sets the limit for how many wraps the peg can take. Sometimes, three fingers of gauge 52 would be too much.

    Another conclusion is that a headstock angle of 17 degrees could create the same string break as a headstock of 14 degrees, depending on the tuners. An example of why tuners sometimes make a difference (and an example of why locking tuners wouldn't always produce the expected result).