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  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone
    If Gibson would price these mainly manufactured guitars competitively I imagine they'd sell well. I hear a lot of younger jazz guitarists on some of the internet radio stations. There are LOT of them. Most likely are playing 335s or the like, but if there was a 175 or TF available for a decent price, like under $3000, I think Gibson would be unable to keep up with the demand. Put the L5ces or WesMo at under $5000 and you'd hear a lot of people playing them. It's not the guitar's fault that there is no market for them. It's a price point issue.

    No it's not a price point issue, it's a business issue. A L5 sits currently at 10k (found one at Sweetwater).


    Say it generates 8k of profit. Well in that case you have to sell almost three times as many L5's to make the same profit. Would demand triple?

    What if it only generates 6k of profit .. Hell in that case you have to sell 6 times as many to make the same profit.



    Would demand for L5s more than triple if you lowered the price to 5k?


    Gibson doesn't believe it would

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  3. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    No it's not a price point issue, it's a business issue. A L5 sits currently at 10k (found one at Sweetwater).


    Say it generates 8k of profit. Well in that case you have to sell almost three times as many L5's to make the same profit. Would demand triple?

    What if it only generates 6k of profit .. Hell in that case you have to sell 6 times as many to make the same profit.



    Would demand for L5s more than triple if you lowered the price to 5k?


    Gibson doesn't believe it would
    You might be right.

  4. #53

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    To make an L5 it has to cost at least $5-6k. I am basing that on what archtop makers have in a guitar that is similar to an L5. An individual maker selling an acoustic L5 or one that is like a Wes one pickup, to make one to that quality impossible to make any money and not get at least $6k. Even then it is not a huge amount as such. The longer you have been doing it and have wood stock and a streamlined process the cheaper they get. My guess is Gibson has a lot of money into a new L5 just to make one. Would someone else venture a guess I am curious?

  5. #54

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    True and they’re also going to face start up costs. The 175s came out of Memphis, gone but not forgotten, did the L5? Either way the Nashville plant will require some kind of production line changes. New luthiers to be hired and trained. All the masters, the cutting machines... where are they and are they maintained?
    Money money money... all going to get jammed into costs/pricing somehow.

  6. #55

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    It is a 50/50 equation IMO. Yes tone is in the players fingers BUT Tal would have never ever got his classic bop tone playing a Strat with Ernie Ball 10-46 strings. Gear plays a huge factor. My tone absolutely requires a big hollow archtop with flat wounds.

  7. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by vinnyv1k
    It is a 50/50 equation IMO. Yes tone is in the players fingers BUT Tal would have never ever got his classic bop tone playing a Strat with Ernie Ball 10-46 strings. Gear plays a huge factor. My tone absolutely requires a big hollow archtop with flat wounds.
    Exactly. It takes a fine player to bring out the best in an instrument!

  8. #57

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    This thread would not be complete without a side-by-side. I don't have a Tal, but I've got 2 nice laminated archtops to put alongside my L5ces. YouTube pretty much kills the distinctions in audio, but this still captures some of how the three sounds are related, but different. It's the Gibson L5ces, the Aria Pro II PE180, and the Epiphone Broadway (MiK).

    I just wish I had a Tal to toss into the mix.


  9. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note
    All this talk of Tal's gear as if it were the key to his sound. Yes, Tal had a great sound, and it's immediately identifiable. But that rolled back soft attack with a horn like decay, that was not something I believe Tal aimed for. His music was an extension of his personality: warm and easy. That's the way he talked, that's the way he observed the world, that's the way he looked at the music he played and that's the way his music was expressed in the instrument he had at hand. I had the great fortune to know that sound up close and live. It was totally him, but that guitar was not a sound I found inspiring. Don't get me wrong, his playing was what made it work. He knew that instrument so well that it had no limitations for him; the way he played.
    I work as a luthier and I worked at Ibanez (Hoshino), and I dare say that the quality of instruments these days are so high that even an affordable Ibanez, with Tal's pickups and some break in time, would be an instrument that Tal could and would be at home on...and sound exactly like Tal. Another person playing his guitar, might get a sound out of it like a dog being smothered in a blanket. You get YOUR sound out of an instrument.
    What I'm saying is, I know instruments, and I've known great players, and the idea that a singular talent has a sound that originates from and because of a specific instrument, is not something I believe in.
    Truth is, these artists were sought out by specific guitar makers at the time, and given great resources to collaborate and create something they could work with. Many times they were not perfect for the endorsees, but they were very playable and a player plays. Like the music, you make it yours. Ask Pat how long it took him to bond with his namesake guitar. As Sco why he wound up with his Ibanez. Ask Barney Kessel what he thought of his Gibson. Ask Bruce Forman about his experience with Ibanez. All these guitars are legendary, because they are good, but really because the players were great. Playing a Joe Pass ain't gonna make you Joe Pass. Jim Hall had a humble 175 that cost him less than $200 and a priceless D'Aquisto-heh, he sounds like Jim on either.
    Tal's guitar. Undeniably special. Because those hands put in the time to bond with it.
    You put in the time it takes to create a sound you love, and by that time, the guitar is going to be a lot less of the equation.
    Just sayin'
    This is all true, but my original post was not about the man but actually about the guitar itself. Everyone who plays the TF says it's a very special, quite unique guitar. Everyone. So I wanted to know what's so special about this guitar. And that's the question we were answering. Nobody doubts the points you make but my question wasn't about Tal Farlow's tone but "THE Tal Farlow GUITAR's" tone.

    And that question has been superbly answered by all, particularly Vinny. Most who have replied own and/or play a Tal Farlow guitar and most can compare it to other very nice guitars, and all are really good players in their own right. So this has been a super productive and fruitful thread at least for yours truly, the OP.

  10. #59

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    You might want to try the Gibson Corp website forum.

  11. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone
    This thread would not be complete without a side-by-side. I don't have a Tal, but I've got 2 nice laminated archtops to put alongside my L5ces. YouTube pretty much kills the distinctions in audio, but this still captures some of how the three sounds are related, but different. It's the Gibson L5ces, the Aria Pro II PE180, and the Epiphone Broadway (MiK).

    I just wish I had a Tal to toss into the mix.

    Lawson,
    Keep having fun man.
    I gotta say, I watched that Jazzed up version of “Somewhere Over the Rainbow” and that was really nice man.
    An enjoyable watch and Listen!
    Joe D

  12. #61

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    Lawson you are getting “the tone” with what you already have.
    Sweet buddy !

  13. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by vinnyv1k
    Lawson you are getting “the tone” with what you already have.
    Sweet buddy !
    Thanks, Vinny. I do indeed enjoy the tone I get from all my guitars, and with any amp actually. Even if I plug into a cheap 5 watt Monoprice tube amp and BOOM the tone is there and I'm happy. I just wish I had the playing ability to match!

    It's sad when you can't blame the gear....

  14. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by Max405
    Lawson,
    Keep having fun man.
    I gotta say, I watched that Jazzed up version of “Somewhere Over the Rainbow” and that was really nice man.
    An enjoyable watch and Listen!
    Joe D
    Thanks Joe! Coming from my favorite solo guitar player on the forum, that means a lot. It really was just tossed off to check a recording set up with a particular amp. Sometimes we do our best work when we think about it least???