Japanese 175 type - is there something off?

[garybaldy]

Hi
Would you consider this purchase?
The bridge seems out of line but correcting it suggests to me that the tailpiece would then be on the skew.
Also the bridge appears quite low and the action may be too high.
A pic showing the heel looks good.
The seller apparently has emigrated and left his family to sort the sale so he can't answer my questions on this but does say the neck is 'good' and the guitar 'plays well'.
Thanks.

[Gitterbug]

Measuring from the photo from above, both the tailpiece and the bridge are way off the centerline. Some of this may be due to the lense's properties but likely not all, as the F-holes appear to be the same size and same distance from the rims on each side. There's a small wedge between neck and pickguard, suggesting the neck is not perfectly aligned laterally and therefore requiring an off-center tailpiece. The PU's are where they belong, hence not straight under the strings. The low bridge - high action combination often means a sunken top. I's a looker but I'd stay away, unless the price is VERY attractive. Which brand is this? A similar-looking Shiro is hanging in the nearby guitar store and I could give it a look, if it helps. Shiro Arai founded the Aria brand. The '70s and '80s "Shiro" Gibson clones were made at his famous Matsumoku factory.

[Rocket Roll]

It's an old Aria 2302 - not the oldest, I've got one a bit older, 1970 or so, with different inlays and a 3-way switch down low, like a L5.

Anyway, the top shouldn't collapse. Or it's better to say that the top cannot really collapse, because it's got a soundpost under the bridge (not directly under, a centimeter further down the body).

[Ray175]

Measuring from the photo from above, both the tailpiece and the bridge are way off the centerline. Some of this may be due to the lense's properties but likely not all, as the F-holes appear to be the same size and same distance from the rims on each side. There's a small wedge between neck and pickguard, suggesting the neck is not perfectly aligned laterally and therefore requiring an off-center tailpiece. The PU's are where they belong, hence not straight under the strings. The low bridge - high action combination often means a sunken top. I's a looker but I'd stay away, unless the price is VERY attractive. Which brand is this? A similar-looking Shiro is hanging in the nearby guitar store and I could give it a look, if it helps. Shiro Arai founded the Aria brand. The '70s and '80s "Shiro" Gibson clones were made at his famous Matsumoku factory.

Gitterbug's analysis looks about right to me. The ideal solution will probably be a neck reset, possibly shaving/shimming parts of the neck joint and socket to achieve proper alignment......

[garybaldy]

Measuring from the photo from above, both the tailpiece and the bridge are way off the centerline. Some of this may be due to the lense's properties but likely not all, as the F-holes appear to be the same size and same distance from the rims on each side. There's a small wedge between neck and pickguard, suggesting the neck is not perfectly aligned laterally and therefore requiring an off-center tailpiece. The PU's are where they belong, hence not straight under the strings. The low bridge - high action combination often means a sunken top. I's a looker but I'd stay away, unless the price is VERY attractive. Which brand is this? A similar-looking Shiro is hanging in the nearby guitar store and I could give it a look, if it helps. Shiro Arai founded the Aria brand. The '70s and '80s "Shiro" Gibson clones were made at his famous Matsumoku factory.

Thanks GB.
The logo is Sakura.
The seller says it has a soundpost like many of the Japanese copies. So I doubt the top has sunk. Might take a punt. The neck joint looks good. May be possible if necessary to shift the tailpiece a tad.
Cheers

[garybaldy]

It's an old Aria 2302 - not the oldest, I've got one a bit older, 1970 or so, with different inlays and a 3-way switch down low, like a L5.

Anyway, the top shouldn't collapse. Or it's better to say that the top cannot really collapse, because it's got a soundpost under the bridge (not directly under, a centimeter further down the body).

Thanks RR.
YES, the seller says it has a sound post. Cheers

[garybaldy]

Gitterbug's analysis looks about right to me. The ideal solution will probably be a neck reset, possibly shaving/shimming parts of the neck joint and socket to achieve proper alignment......

Thanks Ray.
It's a shame the seller can't be more helpful but he sounds 'genuine'.

[Rocket Roll]

Be advised, that's not an original bridge, they came with TuneOMatics which had nylon saddles. I don't want to say the wooden ones sound worse, just - check what the seller had installed, it might not be a good fit and therefore rides too low.

BTW, if it has original Maxon humbuckers - man, those things are to die for. Especially on those old, percussive monsters. They generally cost more than the whole guitar in the right market. Makes sense, they're airy and slightly microphonic. Literally the best PAF clones I've ever heard.

[garybaldy]

Be advised, that's not an original bridge, they came with TuneOMatics which had nylon saddles. I don't want to say the wooden ones sound worse, just - check what the seller had installed, it might not be a good fit and therefore rides too low.

BTW, if it has original Maxon humbuckers - man, those things are to die for. Especially on those old, percussive monsters. They generally cost more than the whole guitar in the right market. Makes sense, they're airy and slightly microphonic. Literally the best PAF clones I've ever heard.

Thanks again.
I did wonder about the pickups.
I forgot to ask the seller if it had thunk!!!

[icr]

I'd hold off on the neck reset that will cost more than the guitar is worth.
The trailpiece can easily be bent back in position to be in line with a small risk of breakage. But this is a commonly available part. The saddle is the wrong one and is way too thick, making the strings too high. Just look at the pickups, cranked all the way up.

[garybaldy]

I'd hold off on the neck reset that will cost more than the guitar is worth.
The trailpiece can easily be bent back in position to be in line with a small risk of breakage. But this is a commonly available part. The saddle is the wrong one and is way too thick, making the strings too high. Just look at the pickups, cranked all the way up.

Thanks.
I'm all in favour of straight forward fixes I can do myself!

[John A.]

I'd hold off on the neck reset that will cost more than the guitar is worth.
The trailpiece can easily be bent back in position to be in line with a small risk of breakage. But this is a commonly available part. The saddle is the wrong one and is way too thick, making the strings too high. Just look at the pickups, cranked all the way up.

I don't know about that. Look at the angle of the pickguard and at the gap between the end of the neck and the neck pickup. It looks like the neck itself is pointing down slightly. Best case is that the neck is OK, but the guitar still needs minor work on the TP and bridge. Worst case, it's unplayable and unfixable without a neck reset. There are plenty of other fish in the sea, and I'd wait for another.

To the OP, thanks for posting -- this geometry goes on the list of things to look at in ads.

John

[Cunamara]

Measuring from the photo from above, both the tailpiece and the bridge are way off the centerline. Some of this may be due to the lense's properties but likely not all, as the F-holes appear to be the same size and same distance from the rims on each side. There's a small wedge between neck and pickguard, suggesting the neck is not perfectly aligned laterally and therefore requiring an off-center tailpiece.

I disagree. Looking at the string position on the fingerboard, the bridge has just been knocked bass-ward and has pulled the tailpiece- which is not rigidly attached to the body- with it. Moving it back over to center the strings on the fingerboard should realign everything properly.

Now, the high action/low bridge combination is more of a concern, potentially suggesting the need for a neck reset or perhaps a severe forward bow of the neck (broken truss rod? Years of neglect?). The angles of the photos are not good to evaluate this. Optimistic possibility as mentioned above is that the bridge top is just too tall compared to the original TOM bridge top. That's an easy fix! I'd either shave down the existing bridge top by 1/8" or so or go with a GraphTech String Saver TOM (if the post spacing matches).

[garybaldy]

I don't know about that. Look at the angle of the pickguard and at the gap between the end of the neck and the neck pickup. It looks like the neck itself is pointing down slightly. Best case is that the neck is OK, but the guitar still needs minor work on the TP and bridge. Worst case, it's unplayable and unfixable without a neck reset. There are plenty of other fish in the sea, and I'd wait for another.

To the OP, thanks for posting -- this geometry goes on the list of things to look at in ads.

John

To me it looks like the tailpiece is attached too far towards the bass side, presumably at the factory? IDK. This would cause a 'bass ward' pull on the bridge by the strings. I can't really make a judgement on the relief/neck set but there looks to be a reasonable angle at the heel.
Quote from the description 'The guitar plays well, its got a lovely neck' - that's either right or wrong and not really subjective.
Quote from one of his messages 'To the best of my knowledge its as advertised and in fine playing condition'.
He is selling quite a few guitars
Thanks

[Ray175]

In these days of skype, zoom, e-mail and mobile phones I find it "surprising" that the owner who has emigrated cannot be contacted to answer basic questions. If the OP doesn't have the opportunity to play and inspect the instrument, and the owner is "unavailable" then, personally, I would pass on buying this instrument

[garybaldy]

In these days of skype, zoom, e-mail and mobile phones I find it "surprising" that the owner who has emigrated cannot be contacted to answer basic questions. If the OP doesn't have the opportunity to play and inspect the instrument, and the owner is "unavailable" then, personally, I would pass on buying this instrument

Ray, We have been conversing via ebay. He is basically saying the guitar is playable but, as he doesn't have the guitar with him and it's only his (elderly?) parents doing the posting, he personally can't check or take more photos of the neck. Also he suggested, on that basis, that I dont bid on it. So I have 2 choices! Cheers.

[Little Jay]

Seems to come from the same factory as my Condor:



(Pickguard, bridge, pickups and rubber grommet for the switch are upgrades by me). Btw, it didn’t come with a tunomatic bridge, but with a plactic bridge with a rosewood insert piece for the saddles. The original pickups looked like humbuckers but contained only one coil!

It has a soundpost and no bracing. It sounds and plays very nice.

The neck angle of my guitar is rather shallow (shallower than with a real 175) so I had to modify the bridge for that - I cut out spaces for the thumbwheels to sit in the top part so the bridge could be lowered more:


It’s actually a rather good guitar! Indeed it looks like that the tailpiece of the one you posted is off center. Could be a simple matter of re-installing the tailpiece in de right spot. If that’s the case and the price is low enough it could be a bargain.

[garybaldy]

Seems to come from the same factory as my Condor:



(Pickguard, bridge, pickups and rubber grommet for the switch are upgrades by me). Btw, it didn’t come with a tunomatic bridge, but with a plactic bridge with a rosewood insert piece for the saddles. The original pickups looked like humbuckers but contained only one coil!

It has a soundpost and no bracing. It sounds and plays very nice.

The neck angle of my guitar is rather shallow (shallower than with a real 175) so I had to modify the bridge for that - I cut out spaces for the thumbwheels to sit in the top part so the bridge could be lowered more:


It’s actually a rather good guitar! Indeed it looks like that the tailpiece of the one you posted is off center. Could be a simple matter of re-installing the tailpiece in de right spot. If that’s the case and the price is low enough it could be a bargain.

Thanks LJ
Yes, I've seen your Condor and read a few of your posts on it. They are very similar. I'm with you on the tailpiece misalignment. The one I'm looking at is a bit more cost - wise than what you paid. And it's an auction. I have a bit of time to consider it.

[garybaldy]

Be advised, that's not an original bridge, they came with TuneOMatics which had nylon saddles. I don't want to say the wooden ones sound worse, just - check what the seller had installed, it might not be a good fit and therefore rides too low.

BTW, if it has original Maxon humbuckers - man, those things are to die for. Especially on those old, percussive monsters. They generally cost more than the whole guitar in the right market. Makes sense, they're airy and slightly microphonic. Literally the best PAF clones I've ever heard.

I'm still in contemplation!
Using an available photo of the whole of the front of the guitar and using a straight edge the tailpiece does look like it's attached off centre. This should be a quick fix.
I have the view that in terms of the action, and considering the sellers comments:
"The guitar plays well, its got a lovely neck"
and
"To the best of my knowledge its as advertised and in fine playing condition".
that there shouldn't be any major problems with the neck or adjustments. Naive??
As regards the pickups, I had an email notification of a new post added to this thread but oddly it isn't coming up, in which the poster suggested they were not the "good" Maxons. So any opinion on that would be welcome.
TBH I have been drawn by the look of the guitar!!
The starting price, though, seems a little high.
Thanks

[sasquatch]

I'm still in contemplation!

As regards the pickups, I had an email notification of a new post added to this thread but oddly it isn't coming up, in which the poster suggested they were not the "good" Maxons. So any opinion on that would be welcome.
TBH I have been drawn by the look of the guitar!!
The starting price, though, seems a little high.
Thanks

Hey Gary, I cancelled that post because I could be wrong about those pickups
I was looking at a site about Maxon pickups and they say those early large polepiece Maxons are also desirable
So I'm not sure about the pickups
My main issue is the height of the pickups, it just looks wrong compared to most 175 copies.
Like the neck is mounted higher than usual.

[ArchtopHeaven]

Gary,

These types of old bargain bucket ES-175 imports (bargain bucket = Treble and Bass plate around selector switch, not rubber grommet like Ibanez/Greco) are imo, not any better than the Korean ones proceeding them. And with the work you're even contemplating doing; you should run a mile.

I don't rate the cheaper Maxon pickups and when I was buying Japanese imports, Maxon's were considered the least preferable pickups in the early Ibanez guitars.

The condor being shown to you is not the same type of Es-175 copy and they're not comparable.

[sasquatch]

Gotta say I love the Maxon's in my '75 Greco 175, very tasty
I like them more than the PAF's I had in my '62 SG/LP Custom or '61 ES-350, although those old PAF's vary a lot. They were a bit dull.

I was the same for decades, any Japanese pickups got upgraded to Duncans etc without ever giving the Maxon's a chance
I do suspect the Maxon's with the braided cable like in my Greco might be the better of the different types

[garybaldy]

Hey Gary, I cancelled that post because I could be wrong about those pickups
I was looking at a site about Maxon pickups and they say those early large polepiece Maxons are also desirable
So I'm not sure about the pickups
My main issue is the height of the pickups, it just looks wrong compared to most 175 copies.
Like the neck is mounted higher than usual.

Thanks sas

[garybaldy]

Gary,

These types of old bargain bucket ES-175 imports (bargain bucket = Treble and Bass plate around selector switch, not rubber grommet like Ibanez/Greco) are imo, not any better than the Korean ones proceeding them. And with the work you're even contemplating doing; you should run a mile.

I don't rate the cheaper Maxon pickups and when I was buying Japanese imports, Maxon's were considered the least preferable pickups in the early Ibanez guitars.

The condor being shown to you is not the same type of Es-175 copy and they're not comparable.

Thanks AH
Yes, the Condor has a lovely aged look to it in comparison but as in LJ's post they do seem to have some similar attributes.

[garybaldy]

Gotta say I love the Maxon's in my '75 Greco 175, very tasty
I like them more than the PAF's I had in my '62 SG/LP Custom or '61 ES-350, although those old PAF's vary a lot. They were a bit dull.

I was the same for decades, any Japanese pickups got upgraded to Duncans etc without ever giving the Maxon's a chance
I do suspect the Maxon's with the braided cable like in my Greco might be the better of the different types

Unfortunately, can't see any braided wire through the f hole!
I think it's another one I'll give a miss.
Cheers

[Little Jay]

Gary,

These types of old bargain bucket ES-175 imports (bargain bucket = Treble and Bass plate around selector switch, not rubber grommet like Ibanez/Greco) are imo, not any better than the Korean ones proceeding them. And with the work you're even contemplating doing; you should run a mile.

I don't rate the cheaper Maxon pickups and when I was buying Japanese imports, Maxon's were considered the least preferable pickups in the early Ibanez guitars.

The condor being shown to you is not the same type of Es-175 copy and they're not comparable.

AH, my Condor came with the black plastic treble/bass ring around the pickup switch. I cut out a bigger hole and added the rubber grommet myself ;-) The Condor is in the lower grade copies category but is actually a really nice guitar, especially after the pickup upgrade. The good thing about it (to me) compared to some more expensive Ibanez and Greco branded copies, is that is has a mahogany (-type of wood) neck, which I prefer over a maple neck

I think the most distinguishing feature in these ES-175 copies is the method of supporting the top: bracing or sound post. (The Condor has a sound post.)

[garybaldy]

Gary, my Condor came with the black plastic treble/bass ring around the pickup switch. I cut out a bigger hole and added the rubber grommet myself ;-)

Thanks LJ
Do you think it's worth going for as it does seem to match the Condor in many respects? I wouldn't spend much on it. Any tweaking I'd do myself. But it's a fair bit more than what you paid for the Condor.
Cheers

[Little Jay]

Thanks LJ
Do you think it's worth going for as it does seem to match the Condor in many respects? I wouldn't spend much on it. Any tweaking I'd do myself. But it's a fair bit more than what you paid for the Condor.
Cheers

Tough call, it would depend entirely on the money involved I guess.

If the pickups sound good and the price is low than it’s a bargain guitar.

If the price is high and you want to replace the pickups then you would surely be able to get equally good or better guitars for the same or even less money....

And that’s assuming no other costs are involved (refret for example).

[garybaldy]

Tough call, it would depend entirely on the money involved I guess.

If the pickups sound good and the price is low than it’s a bargain guitar.

If the price is high and you want to replace the pickups then you would surely be able to get equally good or better guitars for the same or even less money....

And that’s assuming no other costs are involved (refret for example).

Thanks again for your comments. I have actually 'won' the auction! Just this minute! Decided to take the plunge as I've regretted not buying guitars in the past (- not least a Cromwell with a monkey on a stick for very little money - didn't really know what it was nor was I too interested in archtops at the time). A couple of people started bidding so foolishly I joined in! Anyway if it turns out to be a bit of a loss, so be it. I'm pretty confident that I'll be happy with it - fingers crossed!
Cheers.

[Little Jay]

Haha cool! Congratulations! Keep us updated!

[TOMMO]

Haha cool! Congratulations! Keep us updated!

What Jay said! We're curious!

[Little Jay]

Did you get it already?

[garybaldy]

Did you get it already?

Hi LJ
It's on it's way now. But I had a slight prob with seller on ebay regarding the click and collect option that was available and which I chose. I prefer to collect just in case I'm out if delivered to my home. He didn't realise his listing had that option and was reluctant to post to a collection point - concern over insurance cover. It all got a bit convoluted. Anyway I've had a bit of a refund and a friend of mine is a courier so he'll be getting it to me.
Cheers

[Little Jay]

I am almost as excited as you are

[Rocket Roll]

I am almost as excited as you are

If I may be of help to you gentlemen, feel free to ask, my (presumably 1969) Aria 2302 is hanging on the wall behind me as I type this.

[Little Jay]

Sure! Out of curiosity: the Aria is a higher grade copy with bracings and kerfed lining inside, right? Or does it also have a sound post? (Like their Herb Ellis model.)

Aria used a slightly different body shape, which I find a bit of a shame, but it’s only cosmetic of course. What kind of ply did Aria use for the top? 3 or 5-ply? (My Condor has a 3-ply as the original, modern copies mostly use 5 ply I noticed).

Mahogany neck?

[garybaldy]

I am almost as excited as you are

My courier friend is doing it as a favour and fitting it in to suit himself and a convenient pick up time. I know it'll travel safely. Hope I get it before Xmas!!!!!

[garybaldy]

Sure! Out of curiosity: the Aria is a higher grade copy with bracings and kerfed lining inside, right? Or does it also have a sound post? (Like their Herb Ellis model.)

Aria used a slightly different body shape, which I find a bit of a shame, but it’s only cosmetic of course. What kind of ply did Aria use for the top? 3 or 5-ply? (My Condor has a 3-ply as the original, modern copies mostly use 5 ply I noticed).

Mahogany neck?

Some interesting specs for me to check on.

[Rocket Roll]

The Aria is a higher grade copy with bracings and kerfed lining inside, right? Or does it also have a sound post? (Like their Herb Ellis model.)

It's got the kerfed lining, ie. kerfing, but it does have a soundpost. I'm not familiar with Matsumoku models without it - there could be some, I'm by no means an expert on Matsumoku, but from what I've understood, the name of the game was "stability". Apparently Japanese wanted to make their guitars ultra-stable and therefore soundposts and three-piece maple necks, spliced heels and all. In other words - "it's not a bug, it's a feature".

The first part of this video I find very informative:

And here are some pictures of that soundpost and kerfing. Nice workmanship. Not the greatest in the world, but still.

What kind of ply did Aria use for the top? 3 or 5-ply? (My Condor has a 3-ply as the original, modern copies mostly use 5 ply I noticed).

Three-ply, I believe. It's too thin to be five-ply. My Aria has got soundpost binding, I can't be sure, but - the thickness of the top is 4.3-4.4mm (.169-.173 inches), whereas my Gibson ES-335 from 2016. measures at about 6.6mm (.259 inches), and my Indonesian Epiphone Swingster (which is Epiphone Joe Pass + Bigsby and Gretsch-a-like splittable humbuckers) measures at about 5.9mm (.231 inches). Gibson and Epiphone are three-ply, so...

Mahogany neck?

It looks like maple with a center-seam? I'm the worst when it comes to recognizing woods. What do you think?

[Little Jay]

Oh boy, hard to tell the neck wood from the pictures.... I think maple, yes. Maybe there’s an unfinished spot under the trussrod cover?

[lawson-stone]

For the Aria Pro II PE180 and equivalents, no sound-post, 7-ply laminate, no scarf joint/heel splice. Feels solid as a tank.

[Rocket Roll]

Oh boy, hard to tell the neck wood from the pictures.... I think maple, yes. Maybe there’s an unfinished spot under the trussrod cover?

I'd have to go with maple according to that unfinished part too. Very white wood.

[garybaldy]

At last, took delivery of this today!
Neck relief was massive but TR nut was total loose. So started to gradually tighten it. Looks good so far!! Strings - look about 30 years old and roundwound. So a few more things to do. Haven't plugged it in yet but acoustically nice and mellow.
Not sure why pics on their side, sorry.

[Woody Sound]

I don't think even a neck reset would fix this alignment. Look at the strings over the bridge pickup esp high e. Maybe move the tail toward the treble side for a simpler solution and better result.

[garybaldy]

I don't think even a neck reset would fix this alignment. Look at the strings over the bridge pickup esp high e. Maybe move the tail toward the treble side for a simpler solution and better result.

Yeah, I don't think the 'alignment' is much of an issue. With a bit of scrutiny, the neck and neck pickup seem to align well. The tailpiece can be repositioned slightly with no old screw holes showing. I think the bridge pickup is slightly out of position but it looks worse because of the pole screw spacing being different to the string spacing. It probably won't be much of an audio issue. I doubt if I'll use in anyway.
I need to get my default chrome 12s on it asap.
Cheers

[lawson-stone]

Actually to me, the neck, neck PU, bridge PU, and bridge look pretty much okay. The tailpiece is askew and that creates the impression of a much bigger problem. I bet if you replace the tailpiece, or just look at it carefully and see if it's been damaged, mis-mounted, etc. you'll find a pretty easy fix for this. Zooming in, the strings seem aligned over the pole pieces of both pickups acceptably and the spacing over the fingerboard seems fine to me. This looks to me like a tailpiece problem only. Could be wrong, I'm just working with the pics posted, but I'm thinking you might have scored a nice guitar here.

[garybaldy]

Actually to me, the neck, neck PU, bridge PU, and bridge look pretty much okay. The tailpiece is askew and that creates the impression of a much bigger problem. I bet if you replace the tailpiece, or just look at it carefully and see if it's been damaged, mis-mounted, etc. you'll find a pretty easy fix for this. Zooming in, the strings seem aligned over the pole pieces of both pickups acceptably and the spacing over the fingerboard seems fine to me. This looks to me like a tailpiece problem only. Could be wrong, I'm just working with the pics posted, but I'm thinking you might have scored a nice guitar here.

Thanks.
Your view is exactly as I see it in the flesh.
The TR was completely loose and the neck was particularly bowed. It responded well to tightening but I may have reached the end of the tread. May have to add a washer or two. Don't want to snap the rod!!

[Little Jay]

Looks fine to me, twailpiece just is a little funny.



I got one of these on AliExpress for just 18 USD and the quality seems perfectly alright:

[garybaldy]

Looks fine to me, twailpiece just is a little funny.



I got one of these on AliExpress for just 18 USD and the quality seems perfectly alright:

I was wondering whether to change to that style. I like them both. Looks a good deal.
I shall spend some time with the guitar before spending money - except strings!
Thanks LJ

[Little Jay]

Always wise to first play it and wait with spending money

It looks exactly like my Condor when that was still original, every detail. I read Condor was made by Tombo, so if that’s true then yours probably came from Tombo as well.