Frenzel?

[jzucker]

so...I contacted Frenzel about his 763 reverb/vibrato head and asked him what transformers he uses and whether he uses the higher voltages from the super reverb or lower voltages from the bandmaster and he wouldn't tell me. He said that all the information was proprietary. I can sort of understand about the voltages - although EVERY other manufacturer is willing to give you that data, if for nothing else, repair/maintenance sake - And I would see the transformers if I bought the amp.

[paulsomlo]

He probably thought you were a competitor. And there are so many of these boutique builders out there now, they're all scrambling for competitive advantage, despite the fact that they're all building the same basic circuits. When I see things like "hand wired tone" and "vintage cloth covered wire", I roll my eyes and laugh - sort of like building new cars with wooden spoked "vintage" wheels.

At any rate, anyone with a multimeter, pencil, and paper could reverse engineer his amp.

[jzucker]

it's odd because anyone can go right to hoffman rob robinette's site and get the layouts, voltages, transformer codes, etc. I was legitimately going to buy one but i didn't like the attitude so I passed. I had a bad experience with fargen who was also somewhat odd and charged me $100 for a modification diagram with less than 10 parts listed that was done in photoshop but honestly looked like it was scrawled on a napkin with magic marker. So these days, if one of these guys doesn't pass the smell test, I move on.

[jads57]

Be glad you don't have to deal with Howard Dumble,LOL! Major Pain in the Ass, and a Crook as well!

[paulsomlo]

it's odd because anyone can go right to hoffman rob robinette's site and get the layouts, voltages, transformer codes, etc.

That's right, Jack - there really are no secrets; most everything is in the public domain. Now, I'm not going to say that these boutique amps aren't well built or that they don't sound good. They use premium components, and it's very time consuming to hand wire and make it look nice - that's why Fender uses PC boards, and charges a fortune if you want otherwise. And I'd be willing to bet that a large part of the labor cost on a combo is attributable to the cabinet - I'm sure they're well built and some really are works of art. But, there's a lot of marketing afoot and they all claim to have the secret "awesome sauce". Bottom line, is there are only two or three basic circuit topologies from which these amps are derived - single ended, push pull, pentode or triode. You can play with the gain distributions and bias values, bypass cathode resistors (or not), wrap global feedback around it, change coupling cap values, vary the impedance ratio at the output, but at the end of the day, there are very few unknowns. And $20,000 Dumbletones? Don't even get me started.

Since I'm sort of coming out of nowhere, I suppose I should introduce myself, as I've been reading the mail here for almost a year now without posting: I started playing the guitar at 17, but engineering school got in the way. I started playing again at the age of 41, eventually bought a Heritage 575 and started taking lessons here in Colorado. I just turned 60, I've played on and off for 20 years now, mostly off. Coming out of a five year layoff, I've fallen in love with the guitar again (despite the frustration), and most days play 3-5 hours, concentrating on solo chord melody.

Paul

[steve burchfield]

it's odd because anyone can go right to hoffman rob robinette's site and get the layouts, voltages, transformer codes, etc. I was legitimately going to buy one but i didn't like the attitude so I passed. I had a bad experience with fargen who was also somewhat odd and charged me $100 for a modification diagram with less than 10 parts listed that was done in photoshop but honestly looked like it was scrawled on a napkin with magic marker. So these days, if one of these guys doesn't pass the smell test, I move on.

Jack I have enjoyed listening to you over the past several years Good Work!!! I seem to remember you did some jazz tone demo work for Demeter amps. He used to have a really good pre amp yeas ago. I talked to him on the phone awhile back and told me a funny story about Ry Cooder becoming so angry with Dumble that he rammed his vehicle into his fence as hard as he could and threw an amp Howard had been working on over the fence and told him he could keep it! The second time I inquired about one in eighties the price varied on how long you were willing to wait. If you wait a year maybe 4000$ If you wanted the same amp in 3 months it would be 10000$ also I thought he did custom type amps but I think he really liked to sell his standard models. I wanted something like a stereo Super Reverb with two 2 10 cabinets but he did not reply to my 5 page letter. In the seventies he sent me a sheet of paper with standard models with the ODS at 1700$ plus 5oo$ for the interface for the reverb to work.It was too much for me back then. The sound Larry Carlton got on Emotions Wound Us So was a great sound.I think some companies waiting lists are false info to inflate pricing.Good luck on your tone quest!

[Wildcat]

I bought an amp from the originally owner over 10 years ago. Very outgoing, friendly man.He basically built a custom amp for me inwhich I spec out what I wanted. He wasn't too young at the time as his experience at the time went back to the 50's. He did have a son involved with business. Perhaps the son took over?

so...I contacted Frenzel about his 763 reverb/vibrato head and asked him what transformers he uses and whether he uses the higher voltages from the super reverb or lower voltages from the bandmaster and he wouldn't tell me. He said that all the information was proprietary. I can sort of understand about the voltages - although EVERY other manufacturer is willing to give you that data, if for nothing else, repair/maintenance sake - And I would see the transformers if I bought the amp.

[jzucker]

probably best to just buy a used allen, marsh or vintage-sound for what I'm looking for. The frenzel seems to be well made but if he can't answer basic questions about a cloned circuit it's not worth it...

[Gitterbug]

This is an important thread in revealing that countless boutique tube amp manufacturers all over the world have quite limited degrees of freedom when copying or at best tweaking a handful of basic circuits from days of yore. That's why their marketing messages are rife with precise expressions such as "vintage", "mojo" or "magic". Cabs and speakers, rather than circuitry, may account for much of the tonal variety. How long will they persist? There's only two tube manufacturers left in the whole world, in China and Slovakia. Solid state and digital technologies are advancing in leaps and bounds. To with: Fender's Tone Master amps, which probably are just the beginning of the new normal.

A legendary, very demanding TOOB customer says gear should be seen as a servant, not an object of worship. There's several boutique amps in his den, and a Dumble hidden in a locked closet as his kitty for the rainy day. But those never leave the premises. His touring backline consists of two identical amp/cab pairs played in stereo: 2 X Quilter 101R and TOOB 10T for magnetic PUs, 2 X TC Electronic BAM200 and TOOB Metro 6.5GP for Piezo. Whenever he grabs one of the two small suitcases holding the gear, he exclaims: "Wembley!" Not so far off the mark, as his Christmas tours with a popular singer and a small band draw capacity crowds of thousands.

[marcwhy]

Frenzel makes great amps for a great price. If one's needs are something else/more, then it's ok to move on.

[jzucker]

Frenzel makes great amps for a great price. If one's needs are something else/more, then it's ok to move on.

nobody was disputing that mark. The issue is if the manufacturer refuses to provide even basic information for an amp that has no clips, no circuit board, no specs and no examples online. The question becomes then, what happens if you have an issue?

[jzucker]

There's only two tube manufacturers left in the whole world, in China and Slovakia. Solid state and digital technologies are advancing in leaps and bounds. To with: Fender's Tone Master amps, which probably are just the beginning of the new normal.

you forgot the biggest one Xpo-pul / Saratov, Russia.

A legendary, very demanding TOOB customer says gear should be seen as a servant, not an object of worship. There's several boutique amps in his den, and a Dumble hidden in a locked closet as his kitty for the rainy day. But those never leave the premises. His touring backline consists of two identical amp/cab pairs played in stereo: 2 X Quilter 101R and TOOB 10T for magnetic PUs, 2 X TC Electronic BAM200 and TOOB Metro 6.5GP for Piezo. Whenever he grabs one of the two small suitcases holding the gear, he exclaims: "Wembley!" Not so far off the mark, as his Christmas tours with a popular singer and a small band draw capacity crowds of thousands.

Not relevant since I'm more interested in what I like than what someone else uses.

[Gitterbug]

Yeah, I realized after posting that the Chinese factory is down while the Russian one tugs along. The thread escalated to a more general level - about tube amp myths and reality - before I chimed in. If you had flagged that as irrelevant, I would not have posted.

[jzucker]

Yeah, I realized after posting that the Chinese factory is down while the Russian one tugs along. The thread escalated to a more general level - about tube amp myths and reality - before I chimed in. If you had flagged that as irrelevant, I would not have posted.

Not to be a smart-ass but it was you who changed the thread from my original posting about frenzel to one about tube amp myths.

[Gitterbug]

Disagree. PaulSomlo and Steve Burchfield presented factual and anecdotal information way beyond your topic.