Archtops/vs semis in a loud setting.

[Woody Sound]

So I a have a nice Eastman acoustic carved archtop, doesn't work too well in my loud modern big band, feedback (even though we haven't played for months.) I also have a high end S lam that you would know, and a nice semi. Over the last year I've been contemplating getting rid of the S lam, just using the semi for the loud band. During covid I have been really enjoying the intimate tone of the Eastman at home.

60's, not working because of C19 and want to downsize.

Before covid I've done a lot of pit work where the Eastman has been fine, no feedback. Seems to me the S lam is an in-between, and expendable.

I wonder, does the average person sense the difference between a lam archtop and a semi in loud settings? I know *I* know the difference, but does it matter to others as long as the notes are coming our "better?" I must add I received more compliments from the big band when I've used the semi.

Opinions?

Tx.

[Cunamara]

I have a wonderful carved archtop that will feedback at conversational volume. I love the guitar but it is often impractical to play in a loud setting. Semi-hollow guitars seem to be fine unless you're in an extremely loud setting in which case they are more prone to feedback than solidbodies. So I enjoy the archtop at home or in very small situations (no horns or drums), and if I ever go to a jam/gig again I will take my GB10, Tele (semi or solid), partscaster.

The average audience member, heck the average bandmember, doesn't seem to hear the difference. I think that I play more confidently in a gig or a band setting with an instrument that I am sure is not going to feedback.

[citizenk74]

In my experience, the average listener does not know or care. They just want to hear the music. No doubt in my mind that a good semi is a more practical tool in loud settings. In very loud environments a solidbody works best. Feedback is annoying and distracting. IMHO it would be ideal for a guitarist to use a small amp as a personal monitor and send a mic or line out to FOH, but that is a situation that does not always exist. So - one adapts to exigencies, and does the job one is (hopefully) paid to do - get the music to the audience without visible fuss or muss.

[Woody Sound]

I guess what am grappling with, is that, it is only we guitarists who are obsessed with that archtop tone? Even the other big band members don't seem to understand or care, they just want the notes, changes, and solos done , without the woofing.

I have nice carved, a nice lam, and a nice semi. I am ready to ditch the middle man for a few k.

[Ray175]

Hi Woody - Last year I bought a pair of Doug's Plugs for my ES-175D and haven't looked back. Only last week I played through my Tonemaster Deluxe Reverb with the attenuator set at a full 22 watts and the amp at 4 (to stay clean), and had no real feedback issues. Wireless connection also allowed me not to be too close to the amp, and of course the ES-175D is laminated (which also helps)
Maybe the plugs and a wireless connection are worth a try if you want to use a full hollow body?
Ray

[KirkP]

I prefer a carved archtop at moderate volumes, but it was too feedback prone when I used to play in big bands. Most big bands play too loud these days. I occasionally used a Telecaster, but I felt it had too much sustain. I had the best results with a laminated hollow body with a fairly thick top but no center block. It’s an acceptable balance of feedback resistance and the shorter sustain of a hollowbody.

I often got positive comments on my playing (and occasional gripes from the pianist!) but never a comment on my tone. In a big band, unless your tone is really bad no one notices. But I play much better if I like my tone, so that’s still an important factor.

[jads57]

Laminates work better for loud volume situations. One of the main culprits is the resonant that makes it so beautiful acoustically, is exactly what creates the feedback issues.
So unless you have thicker carved top and back like some Gibson's you are playing a losing game. Eastmans definitely are thinner carved plates as well!

You might consider a used Heritage 575 ,ES-175, or even say a Bill Comins import model.

[Cavalier]

I think everybody needs to make sure they aren't getting microphone feedback from unpotted pickup coil windings, I've never had a issue with a semi hollow and the ES125 can play at paint peeling levels without feedback as long as there are no loose windings. Transducers have their limit but with notch filters and parametrics they can get really loud too,

[Cunamara]

I guess what am grappling with, is that, it is only we guitarists who are obsessed with that archtop tone? Even the other big band members don't seem to understand or care, they just want the notes, changes, and solos done , without the woofing.

Right on. The other band members probably don't even think about those issues. Any more than I worry about which reed sounds better for a saxophonist, the pianist's tone or how tight the drummer has the drum heads. In my old band, only the drummer ever commented on which guitar I was using and that's because he also played guitar. The trumpeter, sax player, bassist couldn't have cared which guitar I had. What I would get comments on is whether or not I played well, not my tone or new reverb pedal or which instrument I was using.

A friend of my wife's is a well-known New Orleans style clarinetist; he has only ever owned one clarinet, the one he started with in grade school is still the one he plays with. This sort of thing is true for a lot of horn players. Guitarists have a plethora of instruments and technologies available to them.

[rpjazzguitar]

I have always wondered if it makes sense to buy an expensive archtop and then, essentially, muffle it in order to reduce feedback.

I played an archtop many years ago. Back then, I didn't know how to control feedback, so I just put the guitar in a closet.

I have had one or two episodes of feedback with a D'A EXDC semi, with block, but you really have to do everything wrong for that to happen. That was with a Fender Twin that had too much bass.

OTOH, Wes sounded the best ever, IMO. Some of the best guitar tones I ever heard were full body archtops.

But, I have also loved many solidbody tones too.

I ended up deciding on the basis of sustain. My style of playing requires it, since it can be an effective substitute for working on your chops. I play solid and semi with block. My Comins GCS-1 has never fed back, not that I play all that loud - and I turn down the bass all the way even with my Little Jazz.

[KirkP]

I have had one or two episodes of feedback with a D'A EXDC semi, with block, but you really have to do everything wrong for that to happen. That was with a Fender Twin that had too much bass.

I wish someone had told me when I started using Fender amps to always start with the bass and treble knobs all the way down and gradually raise them to taste. I usually end up with the bass in the 2-3 range on Fender type amps in larger bands—a bit higher for solo or small ensembles.

[rpjazzguitar]

I wish someone had told me when I started using Fender amps to always start with the bass and treble knobs all the way down and gradually raise them to taste. I usually end up with the bass in the 2-3 range on Fender type amps in larger bands—a bit higher for solo or small ensembles.

I always thought it was something wrong with that unit. It was okay for comping, but, when I turned up for a solo, the bass frequencies got really loud.

[KirkP]

I always thought it was something wrong with that unit. It was okay for comping, but, when I turned up for a solo, the bass frequencies got really loud.

The idiosyncrasies of the Fender tone stack pops up here every year or two. Leo designed the blackface tone stacks to allow a lot of boost to bass and treble and almost no cut. The mid control does provide a cut, but it’s kind of V-shaped, and if you don’t like the frequency the V is centered on it’s not very useful. If you want your amp to have a fairly flat frequency response with just a bit of treble and bass boost, you need fairly low bass and treble settings. That’s why I find it easier to dial in my tone by starting with the treble and bass very low, then bringing up to taste. I also have less problems with feedback with that method.

For example, here’s the frequency response with several settings of the of the bass control, with the other two knobs set to 5.


More info here:
GM Arts - Guitar Amplifiers

[Woody Sound]

I should have clarified that I am deciding between my Eastman carved, my Sadowsky lam arch, and a Carvin Semi. When I'm playing in the loud big band, I've been struggling between the Sadowsky and the Carvin. The Sad sounds better for rhythm, Basie stuff, etc. But for solos the semi just seems to come through cleaner. Ideally, I'd like to use both. But often in the middle of a tune the bandleader will suddenly point to me and say "Take one!" And if I'm playing the Sad lam guitar it can tend to woof feedback during the solo. I just don't know if it's worth having an expensive lam guitar anymore. Carved top at home or for pit work or intimate settings, semi for loud stuff where people don't know the difference. Covid is making me want to get rid of the Sad and put the $ to other things.

[guido5]

snip....

A friend of my wife's is a well-known New Orleans style clarinetist; he has only ever owned one clarinet, the one he started with in grade school is still the one he plays with. This sort of thing is true for a lot of horn players. Guitarists have a plethora of instruments and technologies available to them.

Your wife's friend is a very rare exception. The vast majority of horn players, reed and brass, are every bit as obsessed with tone and the instruments, mouthpieces, reeds and other accessories as guitar players are with our tools.

But the grass does look greener over there doesn't it? ;-)

[christianm77]

Don’t bring a knife to a gun fight

[christianm77]

I wish someone had told me when I started using Fender amps to always start with the bass and treble knobs all the way down and gradually raise them to taste. I usually end up with the bass in the 2-3 range on Fender type amps in larger bands—a bit higher for solo or small ensembles.

I do this as well. I tend to find bass and treble up to 5 is fine for practice amp level, but on stage I have them down to zero and bring them up to taste.

When it comes to EQ always better to cut than boost is what I was told...

[christianm77]

Also has anyone used acoustic preamp style notch EQ with an archtop?

[Danny W.]

I've done some big band gigs with my Gibson CS-356 or Johnny A. No feedback problems but more sustain than I like. I much prefer the sound and feel of my carved-top guitars, but feedback is always an issue. Switching to closed-back cabs and a dead-flat amp early on helped a lot. My Acoustic Image Corus+ and Ten2 amps provide better control over feedback than open-back Fender-style amps and have handy notch filters that in some settings can really make a difference.

Danny W.

[jazzmanstever]

Another quite inexpensive thing to try is a soundpost inside the guitar - similar to what you find in classical string instruments like violins and upright basses.
I have a Sadowsky Jim Hall guitar that I thought was a little bit too bright and could occasionally feedback a little bit at higher volumes.
I got a piece of dowel from my local hardware store (1/2" I think) and cut a piece to size so that I could wedge it between the back of the guitar and and the top right below the bridge on the bass side. I used a pair of large curved clamp pliers (also from the hardware store) to fit it through the sound hole and wedge it in. All very unscientific.
In my case at least, the amplified sound is indeed not as bright to my ears and any tendency towards feedback has been greatly reduces.
I believe on classical instruments the soundpost is on the treble side but I chose the bass side only because I didn't want to have to work around the pickguard or the wires and electronics inside.
In my case it was a fix that cost about 40 cents worth of dowel. (I already had the pliers)
Anyway... just a thought.
BTW - pardon my ignorance but what is a Sadowsly Iam?

[marcwhy]

BTW - pardon my ignorance but what is a Sadowsly Iam?

A Sadowsky laminated guitar. [Woody's too hip with the lingo!]

[jazzmanstever]

Ah! Thanks! I'm so "yesterday" with this stuff sometimes...

[Woody Sound]

Your wife's friend is a very rare exception. The vast majority of horn players, reed and brass, are every bit as obsessed with tone and the instruments, mouthpieces, reeds and other accessories as guitar players are with our tools.

But the grass does look greener over there doesn't it? ;-)

Yes, they’re always comparing mouthpieces, reeds, bores, etc. In my band the trumpets all bring two different horns. Lucky for them that’s all they have to carry.

[Cunamara]

Your wife's friend is a very rare exception. The vast majority of horn players, reed and brass, are every bit as obsessed with tone and the instruments, mouthpieces, reeds and other accessories as guitar players are with our tools.

But the grass does look greener over there doesn't it? ;-)

LOL! Sure does! Just bring your horn and charts, no amp or pedals, two wheelers, etc.

I may just happen to know the exceptions, since I am not anywhere near good enough to be playing with top drawer musicians. The trumpet players I have worked with usually had just a trumpet, maybe a backup horn and often a flugelhorn; my old sax player had a Selmer Mark VI and he figured he wasn't going to do better than that. I only know two clarinetists. My usual trumpet player went to a show once and played many boutique instruments costing thousands of dollars; when he got done he thought "I still just sound like me." So he didn't buy a new horn.

[guido5]

Small group horn players have a simpler kits, but big band or pit band types often bring 4-5 doubles (multiple saxes, multiple clarinets, multiple flutes) to each rehearsal or performance! A few extra stomp boxes is trivial!