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I was recently given a 1930's Gibson pickup with a bad case of off-gassing (See picture). Normally I'd just pitch the pickguard but in this case the off-gassing seems to be located only on the inner edge where there is an extra strip of celluoid.
I don't think I've ever seen this question addressed before, but if I trim down the pickguard so I remove all the visible parts of the off-gassing area, could I salvage the pickguard? Or does the off-gassing phenomena affect all areas of the pickguard -- even the parts that look unaffected?
(Just to note, I don't know if I'd even use the pickguard after trimming away the off-gassing area. I wouldn't want to risk the finish on a guitar. I'm just wondering if anyone has any experience with this.)
Last edited by archtopeddy; 09-28-2020 at 11:13 PM.
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09-28-2020 10:49 PM
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It's shot, some people think coating it w clear epoxy or similar stops the process but I'm not buying it. I bought a guitar once that had a guard the previous owner tried to epoxy and it didn't stop it.
Usually glue speeds up the offgassing so it'll typically start in those areas like where the mounting block is attached and the reinforced strip, but if you look at your guard, the light area in the center is also offgassing.
If you want to keep it put it in separate bag away from the guitar (not in the case) for sale down the line, though I don't know why you would.
I've seen some people try to reuse the binding for a new guard and it works sometime, but occasionally it too has absorbed some of the chemicals from the nitro and you're right back to square one before long.
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Thanks wintermoon, I was hoping you'd respond because I know you know your stuff. Your points about the glue speeding up the process is well observed on this guard since all the visible damage is where there is glue (under the reinforced strip). As for the appearance of off-gassing in the light area of the pickguard, I think that is just the lighter color part of the pickguard enhanced by the light colored tabletop it's sitting on. I don't think there is visible off-gassing there. I figure I have nothing to loose just trimming off the bad parts, putting the pickguard aside for a while and seeing if any further off-gassing spreads. Off course, if I do this, it could take quite a while before I know if anything changes. This is why I turn to you and other forum members for your experiences and opinions. Thanks for chiming in.
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You're welcome eddy, but I'd bet dollars to donuts that light area is going. Offgassing usually begins visually as a lightening of the plastic, the visible rot typically follows. Old celluloid guards have a mix of light areas in the swirl pattern, but when you see a large area like that it's starting to decompose.
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Again, thanks wintermoon. Now I understand what you're saying. That is very interesting and useful information to know.
Originally Posted by wintermoon
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Get rid of it the process has started no turning back. It will damage the finish not healthy. Chemical reaction won’t stop.
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In my experience there is no way back once it starts. If you want to "preserve" it, wrap it in paper towels, put it in a zip lock and store in the freezer. That will halt the decay. However, as soon as you bring it out, it will start again.
I've got two in my freezer with nice repros on the guitars. However one got broken when my son crammed a bag of frozen peas on top of it!
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Thanks everyone for your responses. Sounds like the prudent thing to do is not to use it, and I will follow your sage advice!
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Ed,
My 1948 D'Angelico came to me with a Pickguard that was a tiny bit warped. It was a Gibson style, so it clearly was not the original guard to the guitar. I replaced it with an allparts Gibson guard and put the vintage one in a bag for "posterity". A few years later, the old guard started gassing out and burned a hole in the plastic bag. The hell with "posterity", that old guard got pulverized into dust and the dust went into a hazardous materials bin.
Last year, I had our own deacon Mark make me a D'Angelico style guard to replace the Gibson style guard and now that guitar looks like she did when she left John D'Angelico's shop on Kenmare Avenue.
Anyone needing a vintage style replacement guard should contact the Deacon. And Ed, that means you!
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Thanks Marc for your response. As the old joke goes, "I think I resemble that remark!" Originally Posted by Stringswinger
I know the Deacon does fantastic work -- I've seen a lot of glowing recommendations from group members here who know and understand quality workmanship. Hats off to you Deacon, and I'll be the first in line to contact you when I need a pickguard. In this case, I really do not "need" this pickguard (as it was just given to me) -- I was curious what people's experiences were regarding off-gassing and possible treatments.
As noted earlier, I won't use this pickguard. I'll probably trim off the affected parts (since it will only take a sweep of a bandsaw), put it aside and see how it holds up -- away from any guitars and close to the hazmart bin just in case!
Good to hear from you Marc -- stay well and let's hope to jam again in better days!
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there's no way I'm putting something caustic like that near food I'm gonna eat, yikes! Originally Posted by old tube
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you obviously haven't experienced my cooking! Rotted out celluloid adds a unique piquancy
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Eddie,
The outgassing is ruthless.
It will damage your paint, your metal parts and even your FRETS!
It damage the fur in your case too!
I can totally understand why you are asking. That strip seems to be the culprit. It is possible that the strip is ready to destroy everything in its path and the rest of it is not. There is no telling if the rest of the pg will ever start to rot. The law of average dictates that it will.
I would have one of our guys use this pg as a template so they can make you an exact replica. Then I would get rid of it.
Joe D
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I did that about ten years ago, stored it in a closet, and did not look at it for a looooong time. Now I have a baggie full of tiny little pickguard fragments, most of which are the size of BBs. (I take this as proof that I got the guitar with its original pickguard. Too bad I had to find out this way. Doh!) Originally Posted by wintermoon
IDK whether there really is any way to stop the degradation, but I had the idea that if I were to get a do-over, I might try something like a vacuum-sealed bag, like a FoodSaver bag. The idea would be to reduce the amount of oxygen (and therefore the amount of oxidation?) in the bag, and also to avoid creating a place where the offgas can accumulate. Does that make sense?
If not accumulating vapors is a valid approach, does it make sense to put it in some sort of porous bag, while still controlling temp and humidity?Last edited by starjasmine; 09-30-2020 at 12:07 AM.
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I am new to the crazy and insidious world of "off-gassing" pickguards. Like most people, I had no idea off-gassing existed and to what extent before yesterday. It feels like I found an amazing NYC apartment only to find out it might be infested with bed bugs the day after I moved in.
I recently purchased a guitar from Japan. Great deal, w/ I still believe. The guitar is a '91 ES-775. It came with a fret job, new nut, and a pickguard replacement, all else is original, including the case. I didn't think much of the changes as the guitar looked good from photos and I was given assurances by the shop in Japan.
In person, the guitar looks and sounds amazing. There are no serious structural issues - some light checking and faded gold hardware normal for a 30-year-old guitar.
However, the case shows evidence of the damage - a hole in the cover flap with a green discoloration in the spot right above the pickguard. At first, I was just bummed by the lining's strange appearance, but then I remembered hearing something about pickguard "off-gassing" and decided to take it to the interweb.
I have not found much information online about off-gassing, but what I did find kept me searching into the wee hours: "Spontaneous combustion," "throw out the case," and "there is no stopping the deterioration which could infect the finish, electronics, frets, etc.," (which makes the fret job and faded pick-ups suspect)... Among other foreboding prophesies of gloom and doom.
Is there truly no cure? Is the patient inoperable?
As mentioned, some online forums advise disposal of the original pickguard (included with the case in bubble wrap) which makes sense, and the case entirely, which I would like to avoid if it is salvageable. However, if there is a chance of the case damaging the guitar, a case is just a case. Ideally, I hope I can cut out the cover flap, which is the only part that looks affected by the off-gassing, to avoid further collateral damage; air it out for the next 3 months on my covered balcony and have the patient make a full recovery.
From what I can see, aside from the case and pickguard, there is no further damage. The finish and electronics are in good shape. The gold hardware is faded which is part of the natural aging process, however, & again, now I am suspicious of them being buffed out to remove the disease. Either way, there isn't a patina or signs of damage from the off-gassing on the hardware.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
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I don’t think you have anything to worry about. Neither one of those guards is original, nor do they look to be the culprit. You could remove the bit of shroud that has discoloration, but I don’t even think that’s necessary.
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Agreed, it looks like the offending celluloid guard is long gone. The multi-ply plastic guards, as pictured don’t undergo this deterioration. Originally Posted by customxke
It also looks like the case has probably lost most corrosive residue. The corrosion associated with celluloid is caused by a release of nitric acid. Once a guard starts to degrade, there’s no point in trying to preserve it. The rate of decomposition varies, but it will continue and the nitric acid released with put everything around it at risk. The risk is low if the guitar is left in the open air, but extremely high if closed in a case.
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I'd remove that shroud, the fumes have permeated it and it could continue to corrode the strings and metal parts in that area.
They're kind of silly in my mind, what purpose do they serve besides getting in the way when you want to close the case.
edit: well in this case, no pun intended, it might have saved the lid from getting permeated w/the fumes, and you'd have a harder time removing that
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"In my experience there is no way back once it starts. If you want to "preserve" it, wrap it in paper towels, put it in a zip lock and store in the freezer. That will halt the decay. However, as soon as you bring it out, it will start again."
And what is the point? Once it starts............
I had a J Smith whose case was the culprit, and an L5 with P/G "rot", and now an Epiphone Rivoli bass from the 60's with rotting p/g.
Eventually, the parts become goo-ey, and a pain to handle. Trash.
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Love that "flying f-hole."
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Looking around the Interwebs, it appears that celluloid is made from cellulose and nitric acid with the addition of camphor as a plasticizer and sometimes other acid and plasticizers as well. When exposed [to] nitric acid, cellulose becomes nitrocellulose (which is also part of what many people believe is the best possible sounding guitar finish). As celluloid breaks down, it releases the camphor and the nitric acid, which is why it's corrosive and stinks. Celluloid is basically just an inherently chemically unstable material.
Last edited by Cunamara; 04-12-2024 at 06:47 PM.
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The off-gassing original is probably why you received a replacement. The replacement looks to be later non-celluloid, so it should be fine. The damage shown is likely from the original, and the reason it was thrown away and a replacement fitted. It should all be fine, but I might consider not leaving the guitar in the case while closed for long periods of time. I believe that cases are for transporting guitars, not for routine storage, but many will disagree with me on that. I maintain my guitars as I think best, and everyone else is free to do the same. Do what you think you need to do. I don't think you have a big problem.
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