The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by frankhond
    It was explained to me that the Zoller has an "acoustic" sound... but it's really a single coil pickup with some pseudohumbucker properties, something like that will never sound acoustic. It does have less of that jazzy humbucker sound. But to me, on this guitar, it sounds uninspiring.

    My teacher used to blend microphone and pickup sound which gave an interesting acoustic/electric quality. He uses one of those Bose PA's with the tall stick type of speaker and it sounds great in a small space. On a big stage, on TV etc I wasn't much into his sound, it just sounded like a bunch of strings... but that's just my preference, and there are plenty of people who disagree.

    Looking at Hall, or Zoller himself on youtube, they usually play some humbucker that's cut into the top and when it sounds "acoustic" it's often a combo of microphone and playing on the 1/3d of the neck nearest the nut where the sound is less rich...
    Sounds pretty nice here. I've been experimenting with using an "acoustic" amp rather that an electric guitar amp. You'd be surprised at how many pickups have a fairly full range output, but it's the electric guitar amp that doesn't make it happen.



    Now of course, if you want that midrange honky thunk, that's different issue.

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  3. #27

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    zoller pickups were designed to have a very even/flat and extended frequency response...they don't emphasize certain frequencies like most pups do...

    thats why they get the "acoustic" tag...but they don't make your guitar sound like an acoustic...they just have a broad frequency range

    with zollers it's all about your guitar v&t controls and amp settings

    you have to dial in your tone...but the skys the limit


    cheers

  4. #28

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    As we gently drift off topic into how pickups sound rather than installation....

    I have never played a Zoller. Not to put words in your text but seems you feel it sounds a bit sterile and who wants that?

    When I run an Armstrong 12 pole through an acoustic rig, it does sound more acoustic. Not as much as a acoustic pickup like a Sunrise and strings matter. When I run the Armstrong through a guitar amp it has a rich jazzy sound. I can get something in between using good EQ and a full range acoustic set up. And then there's the question of the modeler in the mix.

    If you want that jazzy electric archtop sound (e.g. Gibson L5 and 175) you might consider either a Bartolini or mini humbucker to start. Not sure but thinking you might be able to use the same holes as your Zoller. Also you might pitch the whole idea for a bit while you try different strings and amplification settings. Or maybe an amp modeler as they get cheaper.

  5. #29
    The best sound I got out of the Zoller was with the DI amp in NeuralDSP's Archetype Cory Wong, it's some king of Neve console simulator. With my amp I couldn't really dial in a good tone. Maybe an acoustic amp, or some kind of flat response solid state jazz amp would be the ticket... but I'll take my chances with a different PU.

  6. #30

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    FYI, the way that pickup is *supposed* to be mounted is to either glue or screw the tab to the pickguard. I know it sounds scary.

    BTW, Kent offers a version without the tab, with a bracket for neck mount like your Zollar.

  7. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Woody Sound
    FYI, the way that pickup is *supposed* to be mounted is to either glue or screw the tab to the pickguard. I know it sounds scary.

    BTW, Kent offers a version without the tab, with a bracket for neck mount like your Zollar.
    The Zoller wasn’t really mounted to the neck, someone just put it there, squeezed the bracket and put that glob under it. The original pickup on these guitars is side mounted.

  8. #32
    Anyway, I cleaned of that foam and it had reacted really badly with the nitro finish.

    So I give up... and submitted the guitar to a trusty luthier at TLL guitars. He’ll fill that up and mount the pickup.

    How to sidemount Kent Armstriong 12 pole floating PAF-b031ce6d-06e9-43f1-a084-136c36f31dbd-jpeg

  9. #33
    And the guitar is back. The finish repair is all but invisible unless you know exactly what to look for. And the KA sounds great, the guitar has a huge warm tone that becomes more woody/acoustic-ish as you roll off the volume, exactly how I want it. Happy ending :-)

    How to sidemount Kent Armstriong 12 pole floating PAF-dbe7bdba-7570-47e5-a625-71d68e89f06f-jpg

  10. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by frankhond
    If I place the KA so it covers the foam it needs to come out away from the neck a bit. Is that acceptable?

    Attachment 75399
    ....FWIW I wouldn't mind that space to pick there at all....and somewhere near this location - toward the bridge -is the natural harmonic.....

  11. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by frankhond
    It just doesn't sound like a nice jazzy floating humbucker, kind of stringy and boring. I can get a pretty good acoustic-ish sound with the right amp setting but doesn't really complement what I think this guitar is meant to do. There are some big names that supposedly used one at some point but looking at youtube, that's not what you see 99 percent of the time.

    I had a teacher with a vintage Epi that sounded great through a Zoller but it wasn't that jazzy humbucker sound either, and that guitar was something very special.
    Thanks. Apart from mine seeming to be faulty in terms of the quiet high E, it did produce a tone similar to the tone on the clip in Woody Sound's post #26. There's something I don't like about the tone of the middle strings when fretted from about the 7th fret and above. Not sure if it's a certain frequency range that's unpleasant to my ears.
    I have temporarily replaced it with an Ibanez, supposedly from their (budget) AF84E on my Fenix FAE8, EER lookalike. I like the idea of the KA 12 pole but I've also thought about the RC1000.How to sidemount Kent Armstriong 12 pole floating PAF-20200607_153107-jpg

  12. #36

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    If the pickup is close to the strings, a very small change in pickup height can make great difference in string-to-string balance and attack. I have a Kent Armstrong HJGS-1 Smooth Sam which is a Johnnie Smith type pickup with no adjustable pole pieces. It sounds good, but it’s always bugged me that the top two strings are noticeably louder than the wound strings, especially the jump between the G and B strings. I realized that the treble side of the pickup seemed unusually close to the treble side of the pickup. Unfortunately, with the pickup glued to the pickguard the only way to correct that is to lower the pickguard.

    I realized I could experiment with this by removing two screws attaching the pickguard to the neck and push the pickguard toward the top while playing it (a tricky maneuver). The string balance and attack were much improved. The bass side of the pickup rests against the guitar top, so the height of that side of the pickup wasn’t affected.

    I wanted to fix the pickguard at a lower height without filling and drilling the screw holes in the neck, so I elongated the holes in the pickguard mount to allow the pickguard height to be adjusted when the screws were loosened. Unfortunately, even a small change in pickguard height required a very slight change in the bend angle of the metal bracket to get the pickup realigned with the end of the neck. I’ve highlighted the two places I had to adjust below.

    This very slight lowering of the pickguard made a very significant improvement in the balance of the top to strings to the lower strings with exception of the G string, which is now a bit too low in volume. I can live with that for a while, but I really want adjustable pole pieces so I can get it right. (Athough I wonder if lowering the treble side of the pickguard a little more might help improve the G vs. B balance—maybe I’ll try that.)

    I’m trying to decide between replacing the pickup with a Johnnie Smith style pickup with pole pieces or a reissue DeArmond RC1100. I already have an RC1100 on a Gibson L-7 and really like it, but I wonder if I’d be happier sticking with a more modern humbucking pickup on the Eastman. Decisions, decisions.

    Edit: After posting the above a played it a bit more and it’s really pretty close to acceptable. I think I should try lowering the pickup just a bit more before I make a decision. My wife asked if I thought anyone but me could hear the difference. I said probably not, but it’s kind of like having a pebble in your shoe. Maybe no one else will notice, but I sure do.
    Last edited by KirkP; 10-03-2020 at 05:21 PM.

  13. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Woody Sound
    Sounds pretty nice here. I've been experimenting with using an "acoustic" amp rather that an electric guitar amp. You'd be surprised at how many pickups have a fairly full range output, but it's the electric guitar amp that doesn't make it happen.



    Now of course, if you want that midrange honky thunk, that's different issue.
    I think that's the Hofner Zoller signature guitar, guessing that they developed the guitar to be used with that pickup... But to me, that's not a great jazz sound, and not what you see Zoller play and sound like in many of the concert videos. I do hear a midrange honk here, but thinner. Perhaps that guitar has a natural honk and the pickup is thinning it out in just the right way.

    The KA actually doesn't honk much on my Heritage - that guitar is x braced and has a "wide" sound, which translates to a huge tone that I can thin out and shape with my amp by rolling down the bass, or using a different pick.

  14. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by garybaldy
    I like the idea of the KA 12 pole but I've also thought about the RC1000.
    Based on the dearmonds one can hear on the web and the KA on my guitar, they seem to be opposites... the dearmond seems to have a thinner sound you would make fatter with your amp and technique. The KA is a fat pickup you thin out.

  15. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by frankhond
    Based on the dearmonds one can hear on the web and the KA on my guitar, they seem to be opposites... the dearmond seems to have a thinner sound you would make fatter with your amp and technique. The KA is a fat pickup you thin out.
    So do you add bass and mids to fatten a thin pickup and remove bass and mids to thin a fat pup?

  16. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by frankhond
    Based on the dearmonds one can hear on the web and the KA on my guitar, they seem to be opposites... the dearmond seems to have a thinner sound you would make fatter with your amp and technique. The KA is a fat pickup you thin out.
    Compared to the KA Slim Sam (a small humbucker) and an Ibanez Custom 58 I don’t consider the reissue RC1100 to be at all thin. It seems pretty versatile too, in the sense that I can find a lot of pleasing tones out of it with with various amp settings.

  17. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by KirkP
    Compared to the KA Slim Sam (a small humbucker) and an Ibanez Custom 58 I don’t consider the reissue RC1100 to be at all thin. It seems pretty versatile too, in the sense that I can find a lot of pleasing tones out of it with with various amp settings.
    I didn't mean "thin" in a bad way - but it's a different, more stringy sound than I'm getting with the 12-pole KA.

    This is a nice video where you can hear that the dearmonds are perhaps more related to the Zoller than the KA.


  18. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by frankhond
    I didn't mean "thin" in a bad way - but it's a different, more stringy sound than I'm getting with the 12-pole KA.

    This is a nice video where you can hear that the dearmonds are perhaps more related to the Zoller than the KA.

    I think we’re hearing the same thing and using different words. The RC1100 retains high frequencies that humbuckers typically roll off, so it has more of an acoustic or microphone-like character. But it has plenty of lows and lower mids, which is why I don’t think of it as “thin.” There’s always a treble control if it’s too bright.

    That’s a cool video. I’m surprised how much different the two pickups sound there. In previous videos I’ve seen I thought they were closer. That RC1000 is pretty nice. I went for the RC1100 because I wanted adjustable pole pieces, but the RC1000 sounds very balanced without them.

    Here’s the comparison that convinced me to go with the RC1100.
    Last edited by KirkP; 10-04-2020 at 10:53 AM.

  19. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by KirkP
    I think we’re hearing the same thing and using different words. The RC1100 retains high frequencies that humbuckers typically roll off, so it has more of an acoustic or microphone-like character. But it has plenty of lows and lower mids, which is why I don’t think of it as “thin.” There’s always a treble control if it’s too bright.
    Yeah. Actually those videos made me think that it should be possible to put a dearmond on a stick next to the KA...