The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    I have two thoughts. First, I would talk to the seller and try to get a partial refund. Second, the new and mellower me would look at the big picture and ask whether this is worth fighting about. If I really bonded with the guitar, a few hundred dollars won't mean anything over your lifetime. Besides, you won't sell it when you're alive probably. I'd still advocate for a partial refund but wouldn't slash tires over this dispute.

    I have two great guitars that I will keep. Both were damaged during shipping. They're fine now but have tiny scars on them post repair. I don't want to ever go through the hassle of putting them up for sale and telling the story about a repaired minor crack. That either disqualifies the guitars in prospective buyers' minds or attracts the sharks for 70% off. Only a few would discuss paying a fair price.

    I'll post my recent UPS story in the next few days.

    I sold a Heritage Johnny Smith to an 18 year old serious guitarist about eight years ago. He came from wealth and his dad was doing the acquisition. The dad owned a small plane service for special clients. He used one of his planes to fly his kid from their home in North Carolina to Seattle to check out a guitar, but they didn't like it. They also looked at some closer. Eventually they decided they wanted to check out mine.

    I told the father that it made no sense to fly to Kalamazoo when FedEx would only cost $75. So we worked out when the guitar would be at FedEx in their city. They booked an hour with a prestigious luthier in their city so that they could take the guitar from FedEx directly to the luthier. It the luthier rejected the guitar or the dear boy didn't like it, the guitar would be returned to me the next day.

    Against all odds, the luthier found nothing wrong with the guitar and everything right. He set it up with heavier strings. The boy played it hours a day for years. The father and boy still stay in contact with me. Here is Nate's website. Note that one of the videos shows him with the HJS. ABOUT | nate-huvard-guitar



    So what is the point of this story? This is a case in which the person went more than the extra mile to get exactly what he wanted in a guitar, got the guitar, and never regretted it or decided he wanted something better. That is incredibly rare. If time is money, this guy spent hundreds just finding the guitar, not to mention the airplane expenses. I translated that to paying at least twice the market value for the guitar. That didn't bother him because he absolutely feels he got more than his money's worth with the hundreds of hours of playing. Years later he was still putting in about four hours a day on that instrument and was happy.

    That's why I think it's often not worth the fight if you believe you overpaid for something or that the seller didn't divulge everything. If you really like the guitar, ask for a partial refund. If you don't get it, spend your energy on something you enjoy and let the negative feelings dissipate.
    Last edited by Marty Grass; 09-09-2020 at 08:59 AM.

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  3. #27

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    I have been in daily contact with the seller - Buckdancer's Choice Music Co.

    I haven't heard back since yesterday. At this point I would like them to offer some money back based on not disclosing the sunken top. It looks to me like the deal in old Gibsons so they should be knowledgeable in issues like this - LINK.

    I think I'm past returning it since I have handed it over to my luthier. I have considered that the high bridge and angle might attribute to what we like about the guitar but that's just a theory. I did ask about a sound post but my guy said that we weren't going to do that. I'll leave that to his knowledge. If he has been maintaining the Black Crow ES 125 I'm sure he will know what to do with mine!

    SIDE NOTE/Different Story - Without knowing it I almost scored Luther Dickenson's ES 125 that he has used for all live Black Crows and Mississippi All Stars shows since 2009.
    Last edited by BillyHell; 09-09-2020 at 09:41 AM.

  4. #28

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    They charge you $100 when they didn't disclose the condition? I would start by refusing to pay for that and being a dick about it, however, If you aren't in a financial bind at the moment, I'd just keep it.. I want a 125 so badly and have never even played one.... They always sound so damn good..
    I wish I had bought one before the prices started getting crazy

  5. #29

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    Send it back and get a Eastman

  6. #30

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    If I had to do this again I would just find a good 1,600 to 2,000 guitar. I had been looking locally for one and lost two so I got desperate and went online.

    I sent this to Buckdancers Music Choice this morning:

    Are you going to offer a refund for not disclosing in photos, description or on the phone that this guitar had a sunken top, that the bridge was maxed out and the P90 was so low due to the sunken top that the pickup screws were raised to a ridiculous level? Your store is old and established and it looks like you deal in vintage Gibsons so I would expect that you would have noticed all these things. You took my money without disclosing any of this to me and I have to say that it has left me feeling like I'm stuck with an inferior ES 125. I'm willing to have my luthier see if he can make it right but I feel like I threw my money at a problem. I am super frustrated over this. I have $1,400 in what is at best an $800 guitar. I'm about to put $300 more in it in an attempt to make it right. If I had to sell this I would have to disclose the issue with photos and description. If you can cover my $300 luthier bill I will make the best out of a bad situation and move on.

  7. #31

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    The one I linked is now in the for sale section here. It's not too late....

  8. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by BillyHell
    If I had to do this again I would just find a good 1,600 to 2,000 guitar. I had been looking locally for one and lost two so I got desperate and went online.

    I sent this to Buckdancers Music Choice this morning:

    Are you going to offer a refund for not disclosing in photos, description or on the phone that this guitar had a sunken top, that the bridge was maxed out and the P90 was so low due to the sunken top that the pickup screws were raised to a ridiculous level? Your store is old and established and it looks like you deal in vintage Gibsons so I would expect that you would have noticed all these things. You took my money without disclosing any of this to me and I have to say that it has left me feeling like I'm stuck with an inferior ES 125. I'm willing to have my luthier see if he can make it right but I feel like I threw my money at a problem. I am super frustrated over this. I have $1,400 in what is at best an $800 guitar. I'm about to put $300 more in it in an attempt to make it right. If I had to sell this I would have to disclose the issue with photos and description. If you can cover my $300 luthier bill I will make the best out of a bad situation and move on.
    If they say no, I definitely would send it back and look elsewhere. Actually, at this point, I would send it back anyway. Education usually isn't free, and a $100 shipping cost is a small price to pay to learn and move on.

  9. #33

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    do you still have the pictures that made you buy this guitar?

  10. #34

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    UPDATE

    Getting some money back would have made me happy with keeping the guitar. Now my new decision is to send it back or keep as is....

    After reading your description and looking over the listing- you’re right; this was our error. We think the best solution at this point would be for us to supply you a return label for the guitar and refund you fully. If that sounds ok with you, I can get attach the return label ASAP so the guitar can get in our hands and we can get your money back.


    Our apologies,

  11. #35

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    Send it back.

    There are win-win guitar deals to be had out there. Don't settle for less.

  12. #36

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    "do you still have the pictures that made you buy this guitar?"

    I did save them and when I went back and looked there was no angle that showed the high bridge, big crack (under pick guard) or sunken top. I would post them here but I'm limited on image size.

  13. #37

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    Now that you can officially send the sunken top guitar back. I would seriously look at the one in the for sale section right here.
    Just so you know I recently purchased a 2002 Guild X150 made in Corona CA from a guy on Reverb. When it arrived it had the same exact problem it had a sunken top on the bass side, And the bridge was pretty maxed out. It did not reveal itself in any of the original sellers pictures. The same day I received it, I took it to my experienced Guitar Tech. He verified my findings and concluded that if I was not happy I should return it to which I did..
    Last edited by Nick71; 09-10-2020 at 08:44 AM.

  14. #38

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    I can barely notice the sunken top now that it's back in it's shipping box and getting ready to go back to Maine!

  15. #39

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    I would send it back on principle alone. This happened to a friend of mine from a well known archtop site that I won't mention. It was not an "affordable" guitar, it was a custom luthiers instrument.

    It's dishonest not to disclose damage on a guitar just like it is on a house or car, or whatever. Unacceptable.

    But that's just me. My friend kept the guitar in question.

  16. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marty Grass
    So what is the point of this story? This is a case in which the person went more than the extra mile to get exactly what he wanted in a guitar, got the guitar, and never regretted it or decided he wanted something better
    Mark, that is the son's point alright.
    There was also a dad's point: "Y'know, I'm not always the best father but never doubt that I support your quest. I'm excited to fly all over with you. Let's go!"

    Quote Originally Posted by BillyHell
    "After reading your description and looking over the listing- you’re right; this was our error. We think the best solution at this point would be for us to supply you a return label for the guitar and refund you fully. . . Our apologies, Love, Buckdancers Choice Music
    Buckdancer's has been my hometown store for close to thirty years. Phin and Tim are generally knowledgeable, honest, and friendly unless provoked by, ah, ME!

    Your pics show a guitar I have no desire to own. There are two places where I draw a line: Collapsed arches and fingerboard-to-soundhole cracks on flat-tops. Each can be fixed but they're each easy to get wrong.
    Last edited by Sam Sherry; 09-10-2020 at 05:58 PM.

  17. #41

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    "Phin and Tim are generally knowledgeable, honest, and friendly unless provoked by nameless people who might have authored this post."

    I hope you don't think I have provoked this company. I was in a position I have not been in and was looking for input. My online name is one I have had for almost 20 years and have a presence on Youtube and other sites.

    I appreciate all the input I received and it did affect how I looked at and handled this situation. I'm glad that the issue has been rectified and I can move forward in owning my dream ES 125.

  18. #42

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    .....I'd already posted this photo of my '37 L-7, and maybe it'll help here too. I also own a '52 L-7, a WesMo, and that recent Campellone purchase.
    It shows very well Gibson's double carve on some models during that period. This carve also can appear as a top sink because the design has a low spot in the center.
    At my pre-purchase inspection, my luthier inspected the interior and said that yes the top has settled but the braces had not separated and were still attached.
    But - -there was nothing else wrong with the guitar- - no decal, no scratches, no cracks on f-holes nothing......
    So I bought it 1956 ES 125 Ordered from online store - Has repaired sunken top...Input-l-7-top-002-jpg
    ** 20 years ago ** and the top still looks like this and fwiw it is the best sounding guitar I own -period !

    Like I said hope that helps someone here !

  19. #43

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    Nick71 I am looking heavily at the ES 125 you linked to. I have to get my money back in my Paypal account to move forward but fingers crossed. That thing looks great.

  20. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by BillyHell
    "Phin and Tim are generally knowledgeable, honest, and friendly unless provoked by nameless people who might have authored this post."

    I hope you don't think I have provoked this company. .
    Naw, man, I was talking about ME -- I've gotten up Phineas' nose once or twice. You do what you gotta do.

  21. #45

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    Gotcha - thanks for clarifying. Just dropped off the 56 at Fedex. Now for the new search.

  22. #46

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    The moral of this story is always purchase with an Amex card. You get reimbursed immediately.

  23. #47

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    You might be right but I didn't want to file a claim or do anything like that until I really needed to. I did pay via Paypal and that has usually worked for me.
    It is super hard to sit on my hands until the money goes back in though. I'm trying to find one here in Nashville but no luck yet.

  24. #48

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    You can pay via PayPal. But pay with Amex, and if you need a refund you file for your refund not with PayPal but with Amex. Don’t even approach PayPal because all they’re going to do is go back and forth and jerk you around. Amex is instant refund. Can you see it?

  25. #49

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    I long ago got rid of all my real credit cards but this might be a reason to grab an Amex.

  26. #50

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    BIG NEWS - The ES 125 mentioned in this thread is now mine! Big thanks to wintermoon and everyone in the thread for walking me through this.
    Eclectic16's guitar was purchased from the widow of the original owner. It looks to be a nice one!