Is it the Guitar or the Amp?

**feet** · 09-08-2020, 09:41 PM

I'm also going to go out on a limb and agree with myself. I've done some more scientific research with my amp sims, looking for patterns or correlations or what not, to little avail. Guitars and amps ratch have their own inherent sounds, and some work better together then others. That's all I got.

For example: I'm all about the Marshall bluesbreaker these days. Les Paul loves it, Sheraton and byrdland love it, gretsch g6118... Doesn't really work through it. But the gretsch and the byrdland sound awesome through the bassman, whereas the other two don't. They all sound pretty good through the vox, but the Sheraton and gretsch work even better. have to try them through the jc120 as a sort of control, but most everything sounds pretty bad through a plain old PA.

Amps and guitars and speakers and pickups matter. Sometimes you hit upon something really special. Sometimes you don't.

**Greentone** · 09-09-2020, 06:28 AM

Lawson,

FWIW, the entire rig is a signal chain...everything makes a difference. Still, I do notice that some amps are big contributors. The mid-60s Princeton Reverb and Deluxe Reverb are probably the biggest. They bring specific sonic signatures to the equation.

Well, so does the beamy as heck Marshall 50, but it doesn't sound jazzy at all.

**citizenk74** · 09-09-2020, 09:01 PM

Originally Posted by Greentone

Lawson,

FWIW, the entire rig is a signal chain...everything makes a difference. Still, I do notice that some amps are big contributors. The mid-60s Princeton Reverb and Deluxe Reverb are probably the biggest. They bring specific sonic signatures to the equation.

Well, so does the beams as heck Marshall 50, but it doesn't sound jazzy at all.

My 50 watt plexi has great jazz tones, but they're way down on the dials...

And TBF, most jazz venues I've played just don't have room for a half-stack, so the DRRI gets the nod. And sometimes I'm sitting on that.

**lawson-stone** · 09-09-2020, 09:55 PM

this whole question for me started when I installed a Seymour Duncan Phatcat (humbucker sized P90) on my Epiphone Zephyr Regent Re-Issue (ES175 one-pickup clone) and when I played it through my Polytone, wow, it was different from my ES175 with humbuckers. Then I thought I'd play it through the Princeton Reverb and... the two guitars sounded very similar. I know the PRRI is famous/infamous for its distinctive tone, and I was struck at how almost every guitar I play through that amp sounds more similar than different. Through the Twin, the differences are there, as with the Polytone. But the Princeton really seems to "impose" a tonal signature on any guitar I plug into it. Of course, I can play with the knobs and get different sounds, but I'm really impressed at how this amp dominates whatever guitar I play through it. I happen to LIKE the PRRI tone very much, so it's cool. But I was struck at how much it shapes the tone. I guess I'm the last one on my block to discover this... which is what folks I guess either love or hate about the Princeton.

**steelguitarguy** · 09-10-2020, 12:07 AM

Could be either and then again both. Every link in the chain has some effect. Currently for guitar I use either a Guild Artist Award or a 1957 Guild M - 75 (hollow) through a Fuchs amp...... only effect I use is a rack mount Kemper Profiler. On the steel guitar I use an Old Marlen 4+5 with a Little Walter Amp and the same Kemper (switched with and AB pedal. Best set up I have ever had. (Over 50+ years I have had a bunch!) All cables are Mogami. i do have a 50's Tele that I bring out on occasion..... but I feel better playing a hollow armpit guitar. Always have. Love the tone and willing to deal with the feedback issues at concert level.
I also tend tend to think that the player has a HUGE input in what the audience is hearing as to guitar sound. I saw Joe Pass live years ago at Pauls' Mall or the Jazz Workshop in Boston Mass (same building, same club owner can't remember which)....... his Polytone crapped out. He plugged into a direct box and played on through the house system. After a few minutes of sound system adjustment..... well Joe was Joe. He was amazing!! He was using an ES 175 with one pickup (neck) that I had never seen before. (Or since.)

**lawson-stone** · 09-10-2020, 08:54 AM

Friends I do actually know that everything in the signal chain affects the guitar's tone, and that the player's touch and technique also have an impact. I'm just asking specifically about amps and their effect, and whether my own observation of some amps tending to make guitars sound similar versus others that bring out differences is born out in the experience of others. I totally get that the whole signal chain is involved and touch/hands matter enormously. But still, the amp has a role and I'm curious whether you've found some amps that make different guitars sound similar vs. others that highlight the distinctive features of different instruments, all other factors being equal.

**Greentone** · 09-10-2020, 09:35 AM

Lawson,

You are right. Some amps really do put their imprint on the signal. The PR does, for sure. The Vox AC30, too.

**lawson-stone** · 09-10-2020, 09:39 AM

Originally Posted by Greentone

Lawson,

You are right. Some amps really do put their imprint on the signal. The PR does, for sure. The Vox AC30, too.

One reason I think this is important is when we are trying to compare different guitars, pickups, pots, caps, etc. it matters what amp we play through if we want to hear the difference. I upgraded the entire wiring harness on my L5ces and at the time, was playing mainly through a Polytone. I could hear the difference immediately. I doubt with the PR that it would have been as obvious. I like to make these side-by-side comparisons. In one, I played 3 different 17" L5ces type guitars, and they all sounded very similar. Were I doing that with the PR, the amp would have essentially obscured the differences. But doing though through the Polytone, the differences would come out more clearly.

Admittedly this is not the most important thing in playing jazz! But we are all to some extent tone-chasing, and it's good to know that some amps will suppress differences, others will accentuate them.

**Marcel_A** · 09-10-2020, 11:00 AM

Isn't it the case that SS-amps are more honest in reproducing the guitar? Especially amps like dv mark, JC's and polytone's?

**Greentone** · 09-10-2020, 11:22 AM

Lawson,

Excellent points. It's probably a good case for making jazz guitar comparisons using a comparatively sensitive and neutral amp bed--e.g., AI with a RE cabinet, or a Polytone MB II, or a Henriksen Blu.

**starjasmine** · 09-10-2020, 02:24 PM

Originally Posted by lawson-stone

...for the player, the sound isn't the only thing that matters. Some guitars by their feel, set-up, responsiveness, etc. inspire us and gratify us, while others just sit in our laps and pass the signal to the amp.

As @feet has pointed out, this observation applies not just to the guitar but to each particular combination of guitar + amp.

Originally Posted by Marcel_A

Isn't it the case that SS-amps are more honest in reproducing the guitar? Especially amps like dv mark, JC's and polytone's?

I wouldn't say that at all. The Roland Jazz Chorus, especially, has a characteristic sound that I don't like. When that beautiful stereo chorus is turned off, this amp sounds dry and lifeless, to me, at least.

If you want a "neutral" sound, use a DI to plug straight into a flat-EQed mixing board. Then you will hear exactly (and only) what comes out of the guitar itself. But it probably won't sound "good".

+1 on the multiple posts that stating that the entire signal chain (and more) contributes to the sound. As @wzpgsr has pointed out in far more detail, everything from player to pick to strings to PUPs to amp to speaker to room acoustics to whatever else is in the mix. @stringswinger's point that tone is in the hands cannot be understated.

There's even the shape of each listener's ear and the particular characteristics of their own hearing's frequency response to consider. In other words, no two people hear the same sound exactly alike. You can find out more about head-related transfer function, or HRTF, at 42:04 in the following clip:

**rpjazzguitar** · 09-10-2020, 02:28 PM

The only thing I've noticed is that adding distortion with an amp or FX device minimizes the difference between one guitar and another.

Amps certainly shape the sound, but I've never noticed that Amp A (played clean) makes all guitars sound alike and Amp B doesn't do that.

**Marcel_A** · 09-10-2020, 03:04 PM

Originally Posted by starjasmine

As @feet has pointed out, this observation applies not just to the guitar but to each particular combination of guitar + amp.

I wouldn't say that at all. The Roland Jazz Chorus, especially, has a characteristic sound that I don't like. When that beautiful stereo chorus is turned off, this amp sounds dry and lifeless, to me, at least.

If you want a "neutral" sound, use a DI to plug straight into a flat-EQed mixing board. Then you will hear exactly (and only) what comes out of the guitar itself. But it probably won't sound "good".

i didn't say that the jc sounds nice, but what's goes in comes out. Pretty much.
The mixing board is a solid state amp. Exactly my point.

**Greentone** · 09-10-2020, 04:42 PM

I have noticed that the ES-175 sounds very good DI into the recording console.

**lawson-stone** · 09-10-2020, 05:42 PM

Originally Posted by Greentone

I have noticed that the ES-175 sounds very good DI into the recording console.

I've noticed that too. And Joe D. here plays his L5 and, before, all his other guitars, direct with just a tad of reverb. I imagine it could have something to do with the type of first-stage input amplification and tone shaping the board has.

**starjasmine** · 09-11-2020, 01:07 PM

Originally Posted by Marcel_A

i didn't say that the jc sounds nice, but what's goes in comes out. Pretty much.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. IMO the JC does color the tone, and not in a good way.

Originally Posted by Marcel_A

The mixing board is a solid state amp. Exactly my point.

Flat frequency response is not simply the result of whether an amp is a solid-state or tube-based design. Consider that an input channel in a mixing board can be set up as very much NOT flat.

**citizenk74** · 09-11-2020, 01:14 PM

Originally Posted by Greentone

I have noticed that the ES-175 sounds very good DI into the recording console.

As does my '04 ES-175 through my Acoustic Image Corus Series III. I do twiddle the knobs a mite, but it does sound su-weet!

**citizenk74** · 09-11-2020, 01:22 PM

Originally Posted by lawson-stone

One reason I think this is important is when we are trying to compare different guitars, pickups, pots, caps, etc. it matters what amp we play through if we want to hear the difference. I upgraded the entire wiring harness on my L5ces and at the time, was playing mainly through a Polytone. I could hear the difference immediately. I doubt with the PR that it would have been as obvious. I like to make these side-by-side comparisons. In one, I played 3 different 17" L5ces type guitars, and they all sounded very similar. Were I doing that with the PR, the amp would have essentially obscured the differences. But doing though through the Polytone, the differences would come out more clearly.

Admittedly this is not the most important thing in playing jazz! But we are all to some extent tone-chasing, and it's good to know that some amps will suppress differences, others will accentuate them.

I think the reason the Princeton tends to minimize tonal differences among instruments is that it seems to have the most quintessential mid-scoop in the fender line, given its 10" speaker and wattage. Those mids contain much of the sonic complexity by which our ears differentiate guitar tones. And I do love a nice Princeton, having had a couple. Alas! No more! Perhaps someday my Prince will ton....

I'll see myself out.

**Eck** · 09-11-2020, 10:55 PM

I have a silly mono PA with built in speaker, just put a Jensen in. Then I put an OD pedal in front of it. The dynamics shocked me, notes flew out of it and I had to completely change my focus on how I was playing. Dynamic differences between amps are enormous, and I have difficulty finding much dynamic differences in pickups or guitars.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

**John A.** · 09-11-2020, 11:28 PM

Originally Posted by citizenk74

I think the reason the Princeton tends to minimize tonal differences among instruments is that it seems to have the most quintessential mid-scoop in the fender line, given its 10" speaker and wattage. Those mids contain much of the sonic complexity by which our ears differentiate guitar tones. And I do love a nice Princeton, having had a couple. Alas! No more! Perhaps someday my Prince will ton....

I'll see myself out.

Thee words I will never speak: "no pun intended."

Anyway ... I'm not sure I agree the Princeton Reverb is the most scooped of the bunch. For sure, mine is less scooped and more midrangey than many other *.Reverb Fenders I've played, at least when I have the treble knob turned down and the volume up a bit.

John

**Alter** · 09-12-2020, 12:06 AM

Originally Posted by Eck

Dynamic differences between amps are enormous, and I have difficulty finding much dynamic differences in pickups or guitars.

With pickups i've found them to get more dynamic the lower their output gets. Less gain from the pickup, but they feel more "alive", and you can easily "wake them up" as much as you want using preamp gain in the amp/preamp, or even a booster/low gain overdrive pedal.

**starjasmine** · 09-12-2020, 12:37 AM

Originally Posted by wzpgsr

I recently got ahold of a Bogner New Yorker amp...Anyways, this thing accentuates the “microphonic” characteristics of my pickups far more than my other amps.

A slightly microphonic tube might cause that.

**2bornot2bop** · 09-12-2020, 03:00 PM

My last guitar purchase was 5 years ago. Same for my amp, tube with a 15” speaker. If you only own 1 of each you don’t face this issue. But nothing wrong with owning 20 of each!

**Marinero** · 09-22-2020, 12:06 PM

So, I have been experimenting for almost a year to get the most natural sound I can get from my ES125 when amplified. I love its sound unamplified: clear, clean, and resonant. And, I am trying to get as close as possible to that sound when amplified but it has been, at present, seemingly impossible. Another problem, I believe, is that my ears have been attuned to Artist Series Classical guitars for the last 30 plus years which are inherently richer, deeper, and more resonant than acoustic EG's played without amplification. So, I sometimes wonder if I'm looking for the Holy Grail or that, perhaps, there is a sound that I hear in my head somewhere in reality. I have been tweaking EQ/Guitar controls in every imaginable manner, but the sound remains illusive. I do realize the profound differences between a AG and a EG but that is not the problem. Have others here had similar experiences looking for their sound? Play live . . . Marinero

**John A.** · 09-22-2020, 12:47 PM

Originally Posted by Marinero

So, I have been experimenting for almost a year to get the most natural sound I can get from my ES125 when amplified. I love its sound unamplified: clear, clean, and resonant. And, I am trying to get as close as possible to that sound when amplified but it has been, at present, seemingly impossible. Another problem, I believe, is that my ears have been attuned to Artist Series Classical guitars for the last 30 plus years which are inherently richer, deeper, and more resonant than acoustic EG's played without amplification. So, I sometimes wonder if I'm looking for the Holy Grail or that, perhaps, there is a sound that I hear in my head somewhere in reality. I have been tweaking EQ/Guitar controls in every imaginable manner, but the sound remains illusive. I do realize the profound differences between a AG and a EG but that is not the problem. Have others here had similar experiences looking for their sound? Play live . . . Marinero

A guitar with a magnetic pickup through an amp (any amp) simply does not sound, respond, or feel like the guitar unplugged. No amount of tweaking of fiddling will change that. It's the nature of the beast. The only way to get the acoustic sound of that guitar through an amp is with a high quality mic and PA. The next best thing would be to play the piezo sound through something like a ToneDexter sample of the mic'ed sound (I know a bassist who uses one, and the sound is very close to the unamped sound of the bass). But plugging a magnetic pickup into an amp is never going to give you the acoustic sound, and is really not the point of a magnetic pickup. You may find some sounds you do like, but you're wasting your time if you expect to get the sound you're talking about via this path. [I do not share your frustration with this. I like the sound of electric guitars, and find the electric sound richer and more expresive, and a better fit timbrally with groups].

John