Charlie Christian pickup opinions

[Ryguy]

I actually agree that guitars are tools, not holy relics. However, if the particular guitar you have is the wrong tool for the job, then you need a different tool. A fingerplane will not do the same job as a rasp or vice-versa.

Barney Kessel mainly played a CC era ES-150. There's a video kicking around where he talks at length about the particular materials that make that guitar/pickup combo so unique. I believe Tal Farlow also used a later version of the same guitar, with two humbuckers. It became the basis of the Gibson Tal Farlow model.

I honestly feel you will lose the great sound it already has if you route it. This is simple physics.

It will also not be a cheap process. Consider that it's not just the pickup route. You also have to drill three holes for the pickup adjustment screws, plus one more for the jack. What sort of bracing are you routing/drilling through?

Of course it's your guitar. You can do as you please. No one would argue that. I completely understand that cork-sniffers love to spend other folks' money.

I'm not that person. I'm a player also. You say your Epiphone is a good player. Excellent. Leave it so. Let it be what it is. It's easier to find a good-playing electric archtop than it is an acoustic.

That's all I'm going to say on the matter. It's just too upsetting to me as an acoustic player to think about lol!



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I respect that, and appreciate your taking the time to share your input! Not an acoustic player her though!

At the sake of sounding argumentative, I disagree though with the wrong-tool-for-the-job analogy. L5 in all their variations all sound lovely, including the fully acoustic ones, floating and mounted pickup versions. Epi's too...

I have been playing this guitar with the floating CC pickup for over a year now. I love the feel and the tone if this guitar; I am considering the fixed pickup option as I would like to optimize that tone, as I frequently do with my guitars, in order to get as close as possible to the tone in my head. In particular getting a little less "air" and a little more body and volume to the amplified tone pre-eq tweaking.

And with that, I'll stop explaining myself to the skeptics, as I do sound argumentative!

Cheers!

[Kirk1701]

I respect that, and appreciate your taking the time to share your input! Not an acoustic player her though!

At the sake of sounding argumentative, I disagree though with the wrong-tool-for-the-job analogy. L5 in all their variations all sound lovely, including the fully acoustic ones, floating and mounted pickup versions. Epi's too...

I have been playing this guitar with the floating CC pickup for over a year now. I love the feel and the tone if this guitar; I am considering the fixed pickup option as I would like to optimize that tone, as I frequently do with my guitars, in order to get as close as possible to the tone in my head. In particular getting a little less "air" and a little more body and volume to the amplified tone pre-eq tweaking.

And with that, I'll stop explaining myself to the skeptics, as I do sound argumentative!

Cheers!

Okay, I understand. I'm also not trying to be argumentative. I've been where you are. I'm hoping to help you avoid disappointment.

Were you aware you could get a Heritage Kenny Burrell for what your Epi is currently worth? I know you don’t want to sell it, I'm just making a point.

You will not optimize the tone of the Epiphone any further. It's as good as it's going to get. That guitar sounds as good as it does because of how it's currently constructed. That's not opinion; it's physics. That guitar was built from the ground up to sound as you're presently enjoying it.

All L5s DO sound good, but they also sound DIFFERENT. A Lloyd Loar era L5 is not the same guitar as WesMo's L5. You won't get the WesMo tone from the Loar.

Again, not being argumentative, I know what you're describing. I can pretty much guarantee you won't get it by routing that guitar.

You wouldn't route a D-28 to sound like an L5 would you?

What you propose has been done.Here's a reverb.com link:

Epiphone Triumph 1938 Tobacco Burst Epiphone Triumph 1938 Tobacco Burst | Miami Vintage Guitars | Reverb

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[Kirk1701]

These are also really good, affordable options. You can have both!

[For Sale] Aria Pro ll EA650SB 1976

Aria Pro ll EA650SB 1976

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[Ryguy]

These are also really good, affordable options. You can have both!

[For Sale] Aria Pro ll EA650SB 1976

Aria Pro ll EA650SB 1976

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Thanks! Not looking for a ES175 copy, and very aware of all of the wonderful guitars that are available out there! I have a fantastic 70's Greco ES175 that does the 16", laminate, short scale thing.

I was really just looking for opinions on the tone of mounted vs. floating CC style pickups, and probably should have phrased the question differently in my original post.

[christianm77]

I think you are better off doing this with a Gibson L50

[customxke]

And I got it from another member of this forum, ha!

Did you get that from me?

[customxke]

I don't understand this. Fine, the larger magnets magnetise more of the string length, but the magnetic window is only under/around the coil in either case. I'd guess in order to make a comparison one would need to have played / owned both types. I have; a Gibson 175CC , and the Lollar CC.( and others). FWIW, I'd take the Lollar every time; the original CC sounded thin and brittle by comparison.

Others may disagree , but I can't see how you can compare unless you have actually played/ owned both types. Fred Archtop has made some CC vids that seem to bear out this point; he has several CC guitars. Daniel Slaman thinks there is little if any difference, and he has used both types in his guitars.

I've never thought the 70s CC pickups sounded right....they used the wrong gauge wire for the windings.

[Ryguy]

I think you are better off doing this with a Gibson L50

Cool. You supply the guitar and I’ll buy the pickup!

[Franz 1997]

I've never thought the 70s CC pickups sounded right....they used the wrong gauge wire for the windings.

I think this is correct; I remember testing the dc resistance of the 175 CC and if I remember correctly, it came out nearer low-wind P90 numbers, 5 or 6 k, indicating thinner wire. On the guitar I had, the metal parts were very patinated and looked as if they had been lying around for many decades. My theory is that some of these CC pickups could have been original items that were rewound to P90 specs in the 70s by Gibson; it would explain the weak magnets and thin, trebly sound.

Still, people seem to want them....

[christianm77]

Cool. You supply the guitar and I’ll buy the pickup!

TBH I think you should sell the epi. L50's are not massively expensive.

[Ryguy]

TBH I think you should sell the epi. L50's are not massively expensive.

[Cunamara]

I should clarify that I really like the tone of the guitar now with the floating Pete Biloft CC pickup, I just want more of that tone...a little more body and fullness that comes with a mounted pickup vs. floating.

Have you tried coupling that pickup to the top? The old DeArmond "monkey on a stick" pickups had felt on the back and made contact with the top of the guitar. You could do something similar with the existing pickup which might give you the difference you are looking for. Personally I find that pickups mounted to the end of the fingerboard, a la Johnny Smith, sound closer to a routed-in pickup than a floater mounted to the fingerrest. Some felt stuck to the back of the pickup to lay it on the top, or even just a little Blue Tack between the pickup and the top will be a quick and easy experiment.

Also, I don't know about the internal structure of this guitar but doing what you are proposing will at least require removing the back of the guitar and possibly replacing the top bracing. The Charlie Christian pickup requires an X-braced top, with the farthest screw through the top being placed through the center of the intersection of the braces. There is a thread on the form that shows this being done with an L-50, already an X-braced top and basically identical to the ES-150 internally. If your guitar has parallel braces, these pickups cannot be mounted in the top without cutting through the braces. This is major surgery that you are proposing for this instrument.

I have noticed over the years that whenever these discussions come up, the preservationists protest against the surgery and the owners usually dig in their heels and insist upon their right to do whatever they wish to do with their instrument for various reasons. You may certainly do so with your instrument- it's yours, after all. I wouldn't do it, but I'm not you and it's not my guitar. Whether it will result in what you were looking for is your problem, not ours. Good luck!

[reynrg]

Hello,

I finally figured out an easy way to install a Charlie Christian three mount pickup. It can be very difficult to do, because of the springs and mounting bolts, if you don't know this little trick. All one needs is a needle and thread, toothpick and a tinny drop of super glue.

If you would like more info feel free to email me at rob52@juno.com.

I'll be glad to share it with you.
Happy guitar playing,
Rob

[delo054]

Here's an up to date recording of The Loar with Pete Biltoft's CC Pickup through a Quilter Aviator Cub. I really like the way the guitar is sounding these days