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  1. #1

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    Fascinating. I really like the passage with the Bam/Toob vs the Princeton. I've always been a Princeton fan but I thought the Bam/Toob sounded much better. Much more natural. I skipped a lot of the explanations (sorry I'm trying to get some work done). How did you record those?

  4. #3

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    nice vid...princeton sounds way more open and warm...

    i'd imagine speaker placement with toob would make a big difference..say angled in a corner...or aimed more upright....so theres some floor resonance

    i can see guys that like a lot of midrange will like it for it's toppy clarity

    and so portable!

    best of luck to gitterbug

    cheers

  5. #4

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    I too preferred the sound of the BAM/Toob over the Princeton, which sounded sort of dead, lacking presence. The Toob was visibly shaking the camera during the bass solo. I couldn't tell if that was because it was shaking the floor, or the direct sound waves were doing it, but the movement was obvious. That's a lot of bass from a 6" speaker. I find my Little Jazz sometimes has too much bass. The porting must do that in both cases.

  6. #5

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    Very interesting demo. What impressed me was that the Toob/ Bam setup clearly can stand up alongside the Princeton, which has been the classic studio amp since the 60s and a recipe for 'good sound' on record. I though they both sounded very good; the Princeton a bit softer and with a bit more cab resonance, the Toob/ Bam with greater midrange clarity, which is often what you need to cut through a mix.

    You didn't mention the sans amp preamp settings for the BAM though; that would have made a difference. I have tried a valve 5E8 preamp with that amp and it's a cherry on the cake.

    Dunno what that rough old guitar was...

    Anyway, kudos to TOOB/ Gitterbug. And Christian for taking the trouble to demo the setup.

  7. #6

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    I preferred the Princeton as demonstrated. But, that's because I thought the Toob needed to be EQ'ed differently, for my taste.

    Usual A/B dilemma. Same amp settings or "best for each" settings.

    I also find that the LJ has too much bass. I usually set it on zero, or close. Now and then I try to go higher, thinking zero must be crazy, but I end up turning it down again. If the designer asked me for an opinion, I'd suggest being able to dial out even more bass. Full disclosure: I don't like a lot of bass in my comping - I usually play with both bass and kb. For soloing, I usually use an octaver setting which adds an octave down. So, my high notes are thickened. Obviously, this isn't going to be to everybody's taste.

  8. #7

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    as far as groundshaking, have to take into consideration that the tc is a 200 watt bass amp...the princeton is 12 watts max...

    a fairer test would be to hook the toob to the princeton speaker out..and compare vs internal cab speaker

    cheers

  9. #8

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    Two different sounds.
    BAM/Toob is a very mobile set- it is a big plus.
    I think the real test will be with the real jazz drums...;-)
    Best
    Kris

  10. #9

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    Thanks! Yeah, so a few thoughts -
    • the amps were recorded about 2 meters away with a large diaphragm condenser mic. I wanted to get a natural room sound.
    • the picture shaking is me tapping my foot; I do have a shock mount, but even so lol.
    • I did realise later that I missed a trick not simply putting the Princeton through the TOOB! However, one can argue that that would never represent a gigging situation; I'm not going to schlep a Princeton to a gig just to put it through the TOOB lol. And in practice I'm actually satisfied the FlyRig 5 does a pretty good job of emulating the basic BF Fender tone.
    • The recordings are made somewhat 'on beam'; in fact the TOOB sounded a little less pinched from the side and very warm.
    • However as others have noticed that is also subject to taste. That slight pinched, slightly midrangey quality to the TOOB is no bad thing. I often find the Princeton lacks 'cut' live, and need to use an EQ to compensate.
    • That demo was really to give people a basic idea of how that 6.5" speaker compares to a 10" one... And I should probably point out that the PRRI was on '4', so a decent level.

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by kris
    Two different sounds.
    BAM/Toob is a very mobile set- it is a big plus.
    I think the real test will be with the real jazz drums...;-)
    Best
    Kris
    I've played that rig in a big band with drums. I think I've satisfied myself on that one. Plenty of headroom. More on this if I get a chance to use it out more. (Unfortunately in the UK, this may be sometime.)

  12. #11

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    Princeton has a more ambient sound due to the cabinet and speaker size. When small speakers are designed to sound big, they can have a lot of bass but they still sound small in a way. More focused perhaps. I preferred Princeton but Toop + Bam sound good enough to let the music speak in any gig IMO.

    I also have a Princeton and a Traynor 200 watt bass amp. I think the more immediate attack and sustaining highs of solid body guitars work less well with the SS amp + PA style speaker combination than hollow body guitars.

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Thanks! Yeah, so a few thoughts -
    • I did realise later that I missed a trick not simply putting the Princeton through the TOOB! However, one can argue that that would never represent a gigging situation; I'm not going to schlep a Princeton to a gig just to put it through the TOOB lol. And in practice I'm actually satisfied the FlyRig 5 does a pretty good job of emulating the basic BF Fender tone.
    The point isn't really whether you'd take a princeton with you to put it thru the TOOB .. LOL indeed

    But it would give us an idea of how much of the tonal difference was the TC vs the Fender ampand how much was the TOOB vs you 10" Princeton cab

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    But it would give us an idea of how much of the tonal difference was the TC vs the Fender ampand how much was the TOOB vs you 10" Princeton cab
    If he puts the amps through the same cab and matches EQ's, I don't think the differences will come through clearly in a short, recorded, youtube demo. Especially with a hollowbody guitar. Cabs amount to 90% of amp differences in general IMO.

    There will be differences but subtle enough to require you to be in the room to hear. Even then, it helps if you already played one amp for a long time and really got to know it before you can be sure you are really hearing the differences, not imagining it
    Last edited by Tal_175; 08-02-2020 at 08:21 PM.

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    If he puts the amps through the same cab and matches EQ's, the differences won't come through clearly in a short, recorded, youtube demo. Especially with a hollowbody guitar. Cabs amount to 90% of amp differences in general IMO.

    There would be differences but subtle enough to require to be in the room to hear. Even then, it helps if you already played one amp for a long time and really got to know it before you can be sure you are really hearing the differences, not imagining it

    Maybe .. I liked the princeton a good deal better than the TC/TOOB combo. I don't really gig, so I trust Christians assesment that the Princeton maybe lacking in certain rooms and the sound of the TC/TOOB might be more practical.

    But still the Princeton is that classic thick jazz sound .. At least with the tele .. and archtop might be a diffent thing.



    I suspect that I might very much enjoy one of the 12" TOOBS .. and after all they're 4 kg, so still light weight.

  16. #15

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    When it comes to shootouts, I like the idea of hearing “the best” (or maybe several useable) EQ settings specific to two (or more) amps for a given guitar. There are so many variables involved that I just want to hear “this is as good as I can make this guitar sound on this amp and cab combination” rather than “this is how this guitar sounds on two radically different amplifiers and speakers with all the knobs set to midpoint.” Christian did a nice job with this.

  17. #16

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    Good and best EQ settings are entirely subjective. The setting I like are almost certain to be different than the ones anyone else likes. IMO the only fair way to compare amps and cabs is to set everything flat on everything. Users can always tweak to their desired settings. But I'd like to know what the base sound is, with everything flat. YMMV.

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgosnell
    Good and best EQ settings are entirely subjective. The setting I like are almost certain to be different than the ones anyone else likes. IMO the only fair way to compare amps and cabs is to set everything flat on everything. Users can always tweak to their desired settings. But I'd like to know what the base sound is, with everything flat. YMMV.
    I don't see a great answer. I have an amp I really like, the LJ, but I don't like it if it's not EQ'ed my way. Knowing what it sounds like with the knobs set flat doesn't tell me if I'm going to like the amp.

    Of course, there's no way for anybody to compare amps in a video while trying to get my sound. Unless, of course, I did it, in which case it would be useless to everybody else.

    I'm interested in hearing everything flat and also in hearing both amps adjusted for what I think many can agree is a "classic jazz tone". For me, that's Wes, Kenny Burrell, Jim Hall and maybe some others.

  19. #18

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    Most folks can't seem to put solo guitar amp demos into a useful perspective for group usage. Usually if it sounds like the perfect warm jazz tone for solo bedroom playing, it's going to sound like muddy shit when playing in a group.

    That Toob rig sounds like it would nicely find it's own strong space in a group setting.

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by wzpgsr
    When it comes to shootouts, I like the idea of hearing “the best” (or maybe several useable) EQ settings specific to two (or more) amps for a given guitar. There are so many variables involved that I just want to hear “this is as good as I can make this guitar sound on this amp and cab combination” rather than “this is how this guitar sounds on two radically different amplifiers and speakers with all the knobs set to midpoint.” Christian did a nice job with this.
    I really wanted to give some sense of how the amp sounded in the room. Fenders are obviously familiar to most jazz players as a reference point.

  21. #20

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    Relying on what one hears in a video is problematic. I don't know of a good solution. Flat isn't ideal, nor are random settings someone might use. Then there's the problem of low audio quality, and that can be spotty. Having everything flat on every piece of equipment is the most repeatable (not that it is actually repeatable, but closer than anything else) but it certainly doesn't provide any range of sounds. I think about all we can expect is what Christian did - "here is what it sounds like with my settings, which may be different tomorrow". That seems to be the most common presentation. We get what we get, and only find out the real sound after purchase and use. But there is still a general idea of how it will sound, even if it's not totally accurate.

  22. #21

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    Thanks for the demo. To those quibbling, I think you just have to take videos like this for what they are -- an approximate sense of what the amp sounds like, not an encyclopedic analysis of everything it can do compared to multiple points of reference. Listening to a youtube video at normal home speaker or headphone volumes does not convey the full sound, but if you've watched enough videos of equipment you've used in the real world you can somewhat calibrate what you hear in the video to what it might sound like in more realistic conditions. I have a Princeton Reverb (which on 4 is crazy loud, but which does not sound much like Christian's video of one), so I have something to work with.

    My takeway and calibration from this would be that you can get a legit sound out of the Bam/Toob combination and that it's a good option for a loud clean sound in a small and light package. But I think I'd still need to try one out to be willing to pull the trigger. Given how different my PR sounds from Christian's and how similar the PR and Toob/Bam sound to each other, I think the video/recording is subtracting a lot of sonic information. That's not a complaint or criticism. It's just the nature of the beast.

    John

  23. #22

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    One approach I’ve taken to comparing amps is to dial in the EQ of my favorite amp for my preferred tone, then attempt to dial in the amp under test to come as close as possible to that tone. Of course, with electronics, driver and cabinet as different as TOOB vs. Fender I wouldn’t expect to get very close, but the process is still useful. It helps me understand how the amp under test responds. Then I attempt to dial in the amp under test to see if I can find settings I like even better.

    Amp comparisons that are limited to “flat” EQ don’t really tell me much about the amp’s range of voicing.

  24. #23

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    Christian, you apologised for the bass, but not the colour of the bass! I'm blinded!

    Princeton for me, but my choice is irrelevant. Good video.

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by John A.
    Thanks for the demo. To those quibbling, I think you just have to take videos like this for what they are -- an approximate sense of what the amp sounds like, not an encyclopedic analysis of everything it can do compared to multiple points of reference. Listening to a youtube video at normal home speaker or headphone volumes does not convey the full sound, but if you've watched enough videos of equipment you've used in the real world you can somewhat calibrate what you hear in the video to what it might sound like in more realistic conditions. I have a Princeton Reverb (which on 4 is crazy loud, but which does not sound much like Christian's video of one), so I have something to work with.

    My takeway and calibration from this would be that you can get a legit sound out of the Bam/Toob combination and that it's a good option for a loud clean sound in a small and light package. But I think I'd still need to try one out to be willing to pull the trigger. Given how different my PR sounds from Christian's and how similar the PR and Toob/Bam sound to each other, I think the video/recording is subtracting a lot of sonic information. That's not a complaint or criticism. It's just the nature of the beast.

    John
    With Princeton I was going into input 2. It was still fairly loud. I could play a jazz gig at that level.

    Theres not that much to choose between the Fender and the BAM in the room TBH. The TOOB does not really sound ‘smaller’

  26. #25

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    If I were an outsider, I'd be somewhat amused but not at all surprised at the direction this thread has taken. Whenever there's something resembling A/B, first you have divided opinions and then the focus shifts to methodology.

    As a non-outsider, I should probably be flattered: people whose opinions I've come to respect seriously debate on which one sounds better, a 34 lbs, $ 1,000 plus classic, or a 5.5 lbs, under $ 500 midget for a rig. The Metro series answers to the prayers from NY jazz guitarists and bassists, who just can't lug heavier gear in public transit, the only means of transportation available to many of them. Musicians in many other metropolitan areas are facing the same law of increasing logistical challenges and diminishing returns.

    I've never owned a Princeton (and I believe there's a plethora of models and sounds under that umbrella) but I understand it's mostly a home/studio amp rather than gigging tool. Therefore, I find the comparison less than meaningful. The fact is, whether 6.5" or 10-12", TOOBs still have no direct competition. You have to judge them on their own merit. If you don't need one, fine. Over 200 sold, mostly to pro musicians in 17 countries. Only one return, and that unit is now a demonstrator at the SICA/Jensen factory in Italy.
    Last edited by Gitterbug; 08-03-2020 at 03:39 PM.

  27. #26

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    A lot of jazz players around here (and a few in NYC too I think?) use a Princeton to gig. I do. So it made sense for me to choose that comparison.

  28. #27

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    My mistake. Only a handful of jazz guitarists around here, and hardly anybody uses a Fender. If, it's a Blues Jr, SCXD or HRDL, where the price per watt makes more sense.

  29. #28

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    The only problem, if there even is one, with video amp/cab/guitar/gear demos is that they can never accurately reproduce the sound I will hear with that gear. I don't have Christian's amps, his guitars, nor his fingers, and the sound is going into a microphone to some electronics that convert it to digital, it's stored there digitally, then the digital file is transmitted to a server, stored there, then transmitted to my computer via unknown routes, and replayed on my equipment after being converted back from digital to analog. So the accuracy can be problematic. We get what we get, and we're really lucky if we get a video that showcases equipment in a jazz setting, not wildly distorted rock sounds (I hesitate to call them tones).

    That said, the video is good enough to convince me that the Toob will sound good enough for my use, after suitable tweaking of the EQ. It doesn't sound at all bad, in fact it sounds very good. The only thing keeping me from ordering one is that I already have too much gear - combos, heads, cabs, whatever. If I were starting out from scratch again, I would probably begin with a Toob - either 8" or 6.5" - and a RE Luna head. But I"m not starting from scratch, and I couldn't get rid if what I have economically, nor sentimentally. So I'm afraid Gitterbug won't get a sale from me, but only because of my current situation. I really think he has an excellent product, maybe the next big thing after the Raezer's Edge.

  30. #29

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    The Luna is my wet dream, but I'm too much in the red, have too many amps, and am too pedestrian as a jazz guitarist to deserve one. But heck, we only live once, and the very newest in the lot, a TOOB 10S, would no doubt bring the best out of the Luna, and vice versa. Two such cabs side by side and the Luna on top would challenge any twin in this world, yet weigh only 22 lbs and be portable in parts.

  31. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    A lot of jazz players around here (and a few in NYC too I think?) use a Princeton to gig. I do. So it made sense for me to choose that comparison.
    Yup, some people here in NYC gig with Princeton Reverbs (e.g., yours truly), but in general tube amps are used a lot less than they used to be and one sees lots of Henriksens, Quilters, etc.. In any event, whether they gig with one or not, many people are likely to be familiar with the sound of a Princeton Reverb, so it makes sense as a reference (ditto for a Deluxe Reverb).

    John

  32. #31

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    John, do you know guitarist Greg Ruggiero from Brooklyn, NY? A TOOB convert since 2018, he did 29 gigs in January in places like Smalls, using a telescopic TOOB 10T Custom for some bigger venues and a prototype Metro Custom for the rest. All commuting by subway.

  33. #32

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    I can't really get a whole lot out of online amp demos. So much of it for me is how it reacts, the feel, and what it's like to be right beside it. Mainly what I got from this is that Toob is for real. I think using Princeton as a control is about the best you could do. Best demo I've seen of it. Thanks Christian! If I ever need to cycle my gear around town I know what to get.

    And props to Gitter for coming up with such an innovative design and making a go of it.

  34. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gitterbug
    John, do you know guitarist Greg Ruggiero from Brooklyn, NY? A TOOB convert since 2018, he did 29 gigs in January in places like Smalls, using a telescopic TOOB 10T Custom for some bigger venues and a prototype Metro Custom for the rest. All commuting by subway.
    No, I don't know him.

    John