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Body Complete ,,,,,sweet non cut 16 with P90.
Last edited by vinnyv1k; 07-18-2020 at 08:56 PM.
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07-18-2020 10:17 AM
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New batch group shot.
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What a picture.
Originally Posted by vinnyv1k
New batch group shot.
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As usual not a spec of sawdust. Surgical atmosphere.
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Great Vinny, but what do you mean by "Nick"? Sorry if I'm missing the obvious!
Rob
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Forum member Nick71 Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
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Thank you Vinny for taking the time to post these pictures. And, thank you Mark Campellone for all that you do!! Originally Posted by vinnyv1k
Body Complete ,,,,,sweet non cut 16 with P90's.
I ordered a swing style rhythm box with a built in P90. Mark C suggested all the things he would do to make this guitar just what I was asking for.
Believe you me, I am not by any means worthy of a masterpiece like this, at best I am a enthusiast. But, I do like the finer things that life has to offer. And sometimes I just go for it like I did with this guitar.
I know about Mark Campellone for many years. I attended a few of the guitar shows out in Long Island NY years ago and saw with my own eyes what a lot of the builders can do. Campellone Guitars always stood out to me for his connection to the old world of archtop guitars.
I am a guitar player that likes a lot of different music. But when it comes to jazz I mostly like old world swing jazz. In fact I am playing with a group of fellas doing Sidney Bechet tunes, and having a great time at that..
Please keep the pictures coming as the build continues, this really is great!!
Nick
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those long island guitar shows were priceless!!...some of the greatest luthiers, players and fans all in one place!
that box looks like it would be a great hand percussion instrument!!! lively!
dogear p90 is gonna be great in it...have you decided on the actual pickup? an alnico v staple would kill!
cheers
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Percussive in the way that it is played, absolutely!! Originally Posted by neatomic
I was going to go with a Lindy Fralin P90 but when I spoke to Mark C about what his suggestion would be he was all about the Lollar p90 50’s wind. It is actually an alnico 2 so I absolutely went with that..
As far as the Classic American Guitar Shows of LI, I remember going to the last two held at Five Towns College in Dix Hills. I was young and new to jazz. I was enamored by what I witnessed. As you mentioned from the builders to the players and of course the place was packed with fans. After that I remember it moving to another place and year after year it got smaller and smaller..
I was glad to be a part of it..Last edited by Nick71; 07-18-2020 at 08:38 PM.
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A Campellone build is a fun ride. Watching your dream come to life.
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lollar 50's wind is great choice...as is seymour duncan antiquity dogear...seymour used alnico II for a little less magnetic strength...warms things up...esp if you use vintage pure nickel or monel strings!
seymour was friend of seth lover...classic gibson pickup inventor...has great interview with online...
lollar is generation after...equally smart & passionate...so learned some from duncan and ran...now they copy him!
2 living pup masters
cheers
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Body routed for binding.
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Thanks Vinny cool Originally Posted by vinnyv1k
Body routed for binding.
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When you get a chance can you ask Mark what kind of maple he used on the back n rims. Last time I spoke to Mark about a couple of specs he did mentioned it but my recall has failed me. The back n rims seem to match and I like that with this wood. It kind of flows throughout and then it hits the spruce top "BAM" and then quiets down. Sweet..
Nick
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Very interesting maple figure for sure. Mark gets some nice woods.
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that looks like some birdseye maple...all maple back and sides is gonna ring nicely...
"bam" is right!!
hah
cheers
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neatomic & Vinny, Originally Posted by neatomic
I was looking up some maple wood images for info on this and from what I can gather it might actually be hardwood maple/ curly maple..
Nick
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Nick - I thought I'd save Vinny the trouble and respond to your questions myself : ) The wood used for your back and rim is figured Eastern Hard Maple - some notes of interest: Originally Posted by Nick71
Thanks Vinny cool..
When you get a chance can you ask Mark what kind of maple he used on the back n rims. Last time I spoke to Mark about a couple of specs he did mentioned it but my recall has failed me. The back n rims seem to match and I like that with this wood. It kind of flows throughout and then it hits the spruce top "BAM" and then quiets down. Sweet..
Nick
Just about every carved Gibson archtop I've seen from around the 40's thru the 60's used Eastern Hard Maple for the back and rim (most builders nowadays are using the softer Western Big Leaf Maple) - since your non-cutaway guitar has a kinda retro vibe, I thought it would be cool to use materials similar to what Gibson used back in the day.
Most of the hard maple back stock on older Gibsons was flat-sawn (as opposed to quarter-sawn) and "slip matched" (as opposed to book-matched) - I imagine they just purchased 5/4" rough maple lumber (not thick enough to re-saw and book-match) which they would cut into lengths, joining the long edges to form the two halves of the back.
Most of this Gibson hard maple had curl figure, but a good portion of it had what is called "blister" figure ( pictured below) - usually, this blister figure is relatively subtle (but still very pretty), as in the blonde example - more intense blister, as in the sunburst example, is pretty rare - it's often mistaken for Quilted Maple, but it's an entirely different species.
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Ugly binding stage - next step final sanding to perfection.
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Note the round hole in the background.
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Thanks Mark...
Guitarists tend to think of maple as a single type of wood whereas they tend to recognize differences in Rosewoods (i.e. Brazilian Rosewood vs. East Indian Rosewood). This is a mistake, because there are large differences in the different maples used in making guitars and other stringed instruments.
Mark is pointed out the difference in sawyering and matching of plates of the historic Gibson instruments. Hard Maple (also known commonly as Rock or Sugar Maple) is much more dense, hard, stiff and it can present a distinct tap tone. Most Birdseye figure is found in Hard Maple. Because of these properties, it is the most common wood used in neck construction. It can be much more difficult to carve as well.
The North American soft maples (most commonly Bigleaf, Red and Silver Maples) vary in their physical properties, but are less dense, hard and stiff than Hard Maple. Most curly/fiddleback/flame maple that we see in from quartersawn (and to some degree when riftsawn) sets of of these woods. Sometimes when flatsawn they present a chatoyant quilted figure. Sometimes these Maples can have a distinct tap, but many times they can be “punky” and tap like cardboard.
What is confounding is sometimes “punky” back plates that tap like “cardboard” can produce a excellent sounding instrument. Some builders believe in matching a stiff top with a soft back and a soft top with a stiff back. Sawyering can also impact the cross-grain stiffness of the back plates. Quartersawn wood will be stiffer and more stable to changes in humidity compared to flatsawn woods.
Here is summary of some of the more common maples used in lutherie:
Type———————————————S pecific Gravity—Hardness (lbf)—Stiffness (lbf/in2)
Silver Maple (North America)————-0.44 to 0.53——-—-700—————1,140,000
Bigleaf Maple (North America)————0.44 to 0.55———--850————-1,450,000
Red Maple (North America)—————-0.49 to 0.61————950————-1,640,000
Norway Maple (Europe)——————--0.50 to 0.65————1,010————1,538,000
Sycamore Maple (Europe)——————0.48 to 0.62——-—-1,050———--1,438,000
Hard Maple (North America)————--0.56 to 0.71————1,450————1,830,000
Myself, for archtop bodies, while not historically used by Gibson, I tend to prefer the European Maples (mostly Sycamore Maple or European Sycamore) which fall in between Soft and Hard Maples in their properties. Paler in their hue, they can also presents a beautiful curly/fiddleback/flame figure when quartersawn. They also can present a distinct tap tone. The great Cremonese stringed instruments where made using these woods.
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More slip-matched blistered Acer Saccharum (sugar maple / hard maple / rock maple / eastern maple - all the same thing), from '48 and '37:
Last edited by Hammertone; 07-25-2020 at 07:00 PM.
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Thank You Mark C, Originally Posted by MCampellone
Nick - I thought I'd save Vinny the trouble and respond to your questions myself : ) The wood used for your back and rim is figured Eastern Hard Maple - some notes of interest:
Just about every carved Gibson archtop I've seen from around the 40's thru the 60's used Eastern Hard Maple for the back and rim (most builders nowadays are using the softer Western Big Leaf Maple) - since your non-cutaway guitar has a kinda retro vibe, I thought it would be cool to use materials similar to what Gibson used back in the day.
Most of the hard maple back stock on older Gibsons was flat-sawn (as opposed to quarter-sawn) and "slip matched" (as opposed to book-matched) - I imagine they just purchased 5/4" rough maple lumber (not thick enough to re-saw and book-match) which they would cut into lengths, joining the long edges to form the two halves of the back.
Most of this Gibson hard maple had curl figure, but a good portion of it had what is called "blister" figure ( pictured below) - usually, this blister figure is relatively subtle (but still very pretty), as in the blonde example - more intense blister, as in the sunburst example, is pretty rare - it's often mistaken for Quilted Maple, but it's an entirely different species.
There are so many interesting variables that go into the fine art of building archtops. I find it very interesting and appreciate your in-depth answer. Even within the parameters you set with building specs there is so much you still do to achieve the individual requests from guitarists. That is a true testament to how a fine luthier as yourself can personalize tone with subtle nuances.
I appreciate your years of experience and how it translates to your interpretation of the archtop guitar..
Nick
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Just wondering...what kind of maple is the plain/silky stuff that you see on Gibson archtops from the Norlin years?
Keith
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Jimmy D’Aquisto was adamant that plain maple sounded better than flamed but said customers demanded tiger stripes. The best sounding guitar I ever owned was a 1978 S400. It only had flame on the neck only. Originally Posted by floatingpickup
Maple plays a big tone role. My Special is flamed and my V1K is quilted. Different voices. The quilted is more mellow and the flame more defined.
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No disrespect to the late, great Jimmy D’Aquisto, but there is a lot of anecdotal superstition regarding tonewoods, types of glues and finishing in lutherie. While I agree that “flame” does not make a maple set acoustically preferable; that said, the lack of flamed figure does not make a set more acoustically preferable. Each set acoustically should be judged individually by those skilled in the art. I have played superb guitars with flame and without it.
You can be quartersawn and be plain looking without figure, but you cannot present fiddleback flame without being quartersawn. Quilted figure only presents itself in flatsawn (plainsawn) wood sets. For a given thickness, plainsawn wood is not as stiff across the grain as quartersawn wood. This perhaps influences how it behaves acoustically in a guitar (tbd). While we tend to discuss “tone” here, let’s turn the discussion to the stability of maple to changes in humidity. Maples are not particularly stable woods compared to tonewoods like Mahogany or Koa (see below).
Curl/flame/fiddleback/tiger stripe is a sign of quartersawn wood which is important for stability. It is simply the result long grain wood fibers undulating in and out which produces the flamed figure that we see. Long grain shrinkage in wood is minimal (tenths of a percent). Radial shrinkage on a quartersawn plate is across the top or back. On quartersawn plates, tangential shrinkage is across the thickness of the plates along the growth rings. When a back is flatsawn tangential shrinkage can run across the back (less stable).
Shrinkage:
Type———————————————T angential —Radial—T/R Ratio
Silver Maple (North America)—————-7.2%——-3.0%-——2.4
Bigleaf Maple (North America)—————7.1%——-3.7%——-1.9
Red Maple (North America)——————-8.2%——4.0%——-2.1
Sycamore Maple (Europe)———————7.8%——-4.5%——-1.7
Hard Maple (North America)——————9.9%——-4.8%——-1.9
Honduran Mahogany—————————-4.3%——-2.9%——-1.5
Koa——————————————— —-6.2%——-5.5%——-1.1
Forgetting the dramatic aesthetics, it is physical stability why luthiers prefer working with quartersawn woods. Acoustically, great guitars sometimes have flame and sometimes they do not.Last edited by iim7V7IM7; 07-26-2020 at 05:38 PM.
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